Television Game of Thrones (TV) • The watch has ended

I liked it. I think her killing the thousands of innocent is aligned with her saying she needs to rule with fear. She knows westeros would flock Jon once they knew the truth so they're of no use alive. Plus she's mad for the throne and doesn't care about the cost anymore. What started as a humble approach got more and more poisonous as the throne became within grasp over time.

That's the way I interpreted it anyway.

What I didn't enjoy was Cersei going in such an anticlimax.
 
Didnt Olenna tell Dany to rule with fear rather than love. I agree, she basically knew the secret about Jon was out and would spread. She knows theres only one way to rule, and its to be part of the wheel.
 
Eboue said:
That's not how she saw it. We even had multiple scenes of her explaining it and justifying it by invoking the greater good. If she had gradually gotten to this point and it was all completely predictable and logical she wouldn't have any followers and she wouldn't be mad. She had reasons but it took traumatic events to make her snap, that's what makes her mad and what makes her a targaryen.
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It's indefensible and doesn't work in my opinion. What she did was significantly worse than what the Mad King wanted to do for fecks sake.

Sylar said:
I think she made the decision before and didnt snap at the moment. She was intending to do this it seemed, but Tyrion tried to talk her out once the bells rung. Her nod to Greyworm looked like it meant she agreed with Tyrion, but it probably meant, just do what we intended (revenge).
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But revenge on who? The children didn't fire kill anyone, it was Cersei. Just burn the Red Keep, that's a strong message and you get to kill Cersei. Job done. I don't think Daenerys was able to survey all of the civilians on whether they were happy under Cerseis rule. For her to go out and slaughter everyone after the city fecking surrendered is ridiculous. Just doesnt sit right with me. I'm sure it'll be waved away as her 'going mad'. Which is an acceptable reason if shown properly on screen, imo it wasn't. Wanting a shag and looking weapy isn't signs of her going mad.

VP89 said:
I liked it. I think her killing the thousands of innocent is aligned with her saying she needs to rule with fear. She knows westeros would flock Jon once they knew the truth so they're of no use alive. Plus she's mad for the throne and doesn't care about the cost anymore. What started as a humble approach got more and more poisonous as the throne became within grasp over time.

That's the way I interpreted it anyway.

What I didn't enjoy was Cersei going in such an anticlimax.
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I'm pretty sure watching her burn their Iron Fleet, destroy the castle walls, kill 40,000 troops and then burning down the entire Red Keep while her huge Dragon survives would be enough to allow her to rule by fear.
 
RedSky said:
Not strictly true. I think she only talks about attacking Kings Landing when she first arrives at Dragonstone. Again, we have never, never seen her kill innocent civilians in the show. Attacking military targets or leaders yes, attacking children and women no.

Burning the entire city to the ground is a step too far for her character. Burning and destroying the Red Keep after the bells were sounded would fit her character profile. The Mad King for example only ordered to kill everyone after being put in Cerseis position of not having any option remaining. Daenerys had plenty of options, yet she decided to destroy the entire city killing hundreds of thousands of people in the process...???

I could perhaps understand her snapping like that if she had attacked straight away after last episode. But having lots of time to sit and ponder on the situation, I can't see how she's made that leap from "I want revenge, im going to kill Cersei" to "I want revenge, kill the entire city". I just dont think that level of destruction fits her character. Shes always cared about the normal person, thats always been her 2nd focus behind the Iron Throne.
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Agree 100%. If she goes straight to red keep to attack Cersie after surrender I would have no complaints. Trying to burn every inch of the city made no sense for her character.
 
RedSky said:
It's indefensible and doesn't work in my opinion. What she did was significantly worse than what the Mad King wanted to do for fecks sake.



But revenge on who? The children didn't fire kill anyone, it was Cersei. Just burn the Red Keep, that's a strong message and you get to kill Cersei. Job done. I don't think Daenerys was able to survey all of the civilians on whether they were happy under Cerseis rule. For her to go out and slaughter everyone after the city fecking surrendered is ridiculous. Just doesnt sit right with me. I'm sure it'll be waved away as her 'going mad'. Which is an acceptable reason if shown properly on screen, imo it wasn't. Wanting a shag and looking weapy isn't signs of her going mad.



I'm pretty sure watching her burn their Iron Fleet, destroy the castle walls, kill 40,000 troops and then burning down the entire Red Keep while her huge Dragon survives would be enough to allow her to rule by fear.
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Of course its indefensible, shes mad.
 
RedSky said:
I'm pretty sure watching her burn their Iron Fleet, destroy the castle walls, kill 40,000 troops and then burning down the entire Red Keep while her huge Dragon survives would be enough to allow her to rule by fear.
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Yeah she did go a bit nuts. I think that's what they were trying to show though. She's just like her dad now.
 
Can dragon fire melt steel beams?. I think not. There is so much evidence to suggest that its an internal plot. It was all controlled demolitions. Conspiracy!!!
 
Sanche7 said:
The writing is all over the place, they don't even know what the feck they are doing. Cersei who is probably the most vile and evil character gets an ending where fans should feel sorry for her but Dany who has struggled so much and done so much good over the last 7 seasons is now a fecking monster
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It's comments like this that make me realize the show is still pretty awesome. It's not a fairy tale where good is good and bad is bad and good always wins.. And in a way that's far more realistic and sets this show apart from many others.
 
RedSky said:
It's indefensible and doesn't work in my opinion. What she did was significantly worse than what the Mad King wanted to do for fecks sake.



But revenge on who? The children didn't fire kill anyone, it was Cersei. Just burn the Red Keep, that's a strong message and you get to kill Cersei. Job done. I don't think Daenerys was able to survey all of the civilians on whether they were happy under Cerseis rule. For her to go out and slaughter everyone after the city fecking surrendered is ridiculous. Just doesnt sit right with me. I'm sure it'll be waved away as her 'going mad'. Which is an acceptable reason if shown properly on screen, imo it wasn't. Wanting a shag and looking weapy isn't signs of her going mad.



I'm pretty sure watching her burn their Iron Fleet, destroy the castle walls, kill 40,000 troops and then burning down the entire Red Keep while her huge Dragon survives would be enough to allow her to rule by fear.
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Revenge on the west. Revenge on everybody. And yes, its indefensible. Thats what will have everybody sane turn on her now. Whereas in her mind she will think she did what she needed to do, to take everything away from Cersei. Maybe thats her thinking of this ending the wheel? Or maybe she believes everybody will now fear her and accept her.
 
Redplane said:
It's comments like this that make me realize the show is still pretty awesome. It's not a fairy tale where good is good and bad is bad and good always wins.. And in a way that's far more realistic and sets this show apart from many others.
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I reckon if Cersei gets burnt alive or killed by Jaime, there would be complaints.
I reckon if Dany wins and rules happily, there would be complaints.

I think I said it before the season started. A lot of people are watching this not with the view to see how things are done, but with the expectation of how it should be in their mind. Dont get me wrong, there are some really bad stuff like Euron, but for the most part its been an enjoyable spectacle.
 
So how does the imininent battle go?

Entire North (ie including free folk) versus Unsullied, Dothraki and a dragon?
 
Sylar said:
I reckon if Cersei gets burnt alive or killed by Jaime, there would be complaints.
I reckon if Dany wins and rules happily, there would be complaints.

I think I said it before the season started. A lot of people are watching this not with the view to see how things are done, but with the expectation of how it should be in their mind. Dont get me wrong, there are some really bad stuff like Euron, but for the most part its been an enjoyable spectacle.
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Exactly. The most important quote of GoT is probably still Ramsay's: if you think this has a happy ending, you haven't been paying attention.
 
lsd said:
Does anyone think next week will be Jon at one end Dany the other end and Drogon in the middle as they both go "cmon boy come to the one you live "

Hard to see how Jon can stand to Dany and her armies unless Drogon let's him
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I'm guessing it will be something stupid like Jon "tricking" her alone going for a kiss or something then stab her, the show is stupid like that now.
 
syrian_scholes said:
She freed slaves, she was great for the dothrakis stopped them from raping women ie, she locked up her dragons as to not hurt anyone, she didn't want to reopen the fighting pits to not get people killed, yes she did burn sams dad and brother but its freaking war, lines get crossed at wars.

Really find it hard that with all the good things she did that she is suddenly crazy and want to burn civillians and children, had she burnt Ceresi that would've been believeable and enjoyable, the writers trying to get sympathy for Ceresi though was fecking dumb.
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Yet the likes of Sam, Varys and Tyrion all had serious doubts about her prior to this. Her character was already seriously in question, despite all the stuff you mention. The fact that you're able to somewhat justify her previous bad actions is the point of the twist, you were supposed to be excusing it until suddenly you weren't. The story duped you into overlooking crucifixions & summary executions because it was a "good guy" doing it.

Dany going bad (which has been her ultimate fate all along) was always going to involve her crossing a line at some point between what the audience sees as justifiable carnage to unjustifiable carnage. All they can do to lay the ground for that is have her pushing the limits of justifable violence to breaking point beforehand, which they did by having her burn POWs alive and repeatedly threaten to reign fire down on King's Landing at huge cost of civilian lives.

Just having her burn Cersei (as you suggest) because it would be "enjoyable" wouldn't be doing anything with the character because that's already more justifiable then other stuff she's done. This is where all the "enjoyable" violence she's inflicted before stops. You might as well say "change the ending of the story and keep her a hero". She has to transgress at some point.
 
Redplane said:
Exactly. The most important quote of GoT is probably still Ramsay's: if you think this has a happy ending, you haven't been paying attention.
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I dont think its been perfect. Ideally we would have had better dialogue, a longer season, but we knew 2-3 years ago that wasnt the case. I think half were wanting the NK to end this, whilst half wanted the politics to end it. It wasnt a situation I think that would see a lot of people happy.
Limitations of tv ,budget, means its easier to write and put into words, than to actually display on tv in a limited time.

I would have written Euron, and Dorne completely differently. Dorne for example, and the sandsnakes imo just went against everything Oberyn stood for. 'we dont kill children in Dorne' but thats what his widow goes and does. The prince and his security were total jobbers too. Could and should have been better.

However I like to look at what theyve given and rate it based on that rather than rate on what I think should have happened. I remember somebody saying that the hound vs mountain would be pure fan service, but they threw in hints it would lead to this.
 
Sylar said:
Revenge on the west. Revenge on everybody. And yes, its indefensible. Thats what will have everybody sane turn on her now. Whereas in her mind she will think she did what she needed to do, to take everything away from Cersei. Maybe thats her thinking of this ending the wheel? Or maybe she believes everybody will now fear her and accept her.
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She had no reason to take revenge on the West. Nor revenge on everybody. Where the feck has this reasoning been brought up? In what way has the West wronged her to the point of her deciding to burn everyone. It makes no sense. :lol:

Cersei and Euron are the prime reasons her friends died. Euron was with his fleet, fleet burnt, objective complete. Cersei would be at the Red Keep, City had surrendered, burn the Keep and kill Cersei, objective complete. They are the people that she wanted revenge on, little Sarah Jane of Flea Bottom had no reason to be burned. Nor Dave the fisherman, nor Steve the Ratcatcher.
 
I enjoyed it. Thought they got the pacing spot on for once. I didn't feel like I wanted them to get on with it before the battle started.

It's pretty much gone how I expected though. I knew Dany would start being like her father but I guess I didn't expect her to literally fly around destroying the whole city and burning children alive.

Jon is going to have to kill Dany. That much is obvious.

One thing I didn't like was Jaime's arc basically being completely pointless. All that and he runs back to Cersei? I wasn't sure about Cersei being killed by the crypt collapsing either but then I thought that's more book-like than anything. The TV show has become which main character will kill the other main character. Before it was Ilyn Payne killing Ned, a random Frey killing Cat and Rob, a boar killing Robert Baratheon, etc...
 
I wonder how much of his grandads genes Jon have and will he go mad too? I guess we'll never find out..
Not the best start of Dannys rule if she'll ever rule at all, depending on the last episode.
 
sullydnl said:
Yet the likes of Sam, Varys and Tyrion all had serious doubts about her prior to this. Her character was already seriously in question, despite all the stuff you mention. The fact that you're able to somewhat justify her previous bad actions is the point of the twist, you were supposed to be excusing it until suddenly you weren't.

Dany going bad (which has been her ultimate fate all along) was always going to involve her crossing a line at some point between what the audience sees as justifiable carnage to unjustifiable carnage. All they can do to lay the ground for that is have her pushing the limits of justifable violence to breaking point beforehand, which they did by having her burn POWs alive and repeatedly threaten to reign fire down on King's Landing at huge cost of civilian lives.

Just having her burn Cersei (as you suggest) because it would be "enjoyable" wouldn't be doing anything with the character because that's already more justifiable then other stuff she's done. You might as well say "change the ending of the story and keep her a hero". She has to transgress at some point.
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I'm just saying it makes sense, why leave Ceresi and attack civillians first? Do you think the end of Ceresi was good killed by rocks? Do you think Arya surviving in a space where everyone around her is killed made sense? I don't care what the end as long as the events make sense like the whole series did, the show that gave us Ned Starks death and the red wedding in a very sensible twist can't take such leaps suddenly, it's just bad writing imo.
 
VP89 said:
Yeah she did go a bit nuts. I think that's what they were trying to show though. She's just like her dad now.
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No, shes much worse than her father. She killed an entire cities population who had just surrendered. The Mad King wanted to blow the city up to attempt to destroy an invading army along with a last ditch attempt to save his crown. It was extremely desperate and yes a bit nuts, but slightly understandable. What Daenerys did was unthinkable.
 
crappycraperson said:
Agree 100%. If she goes straight to red keep to attack Cersie after surrender I would have no complaints. Trying to burn every inch of the city made no sense for her character.
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She's gone mad. You can't expect her actions to still be in line with her character up to now. If it was then she wouldn't be mad, she be making her usual somewhat justifable decisions.
 
VP89 said:
So how does the imininent battle go?

Entire North (ie including free folk) versus Unsullied, Dothraki and a dragon?
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She demolished a heavily fortified King's Landing with the Iron Fleet, the Golden Company and the Lannister army protecting it and did it with ease. No other force can stand up to her. There are no ballistae and no Night King javelins to take out Drogon.

I don't think there's a battle. I think Jon somehow gets close to her and kills her, he refuses to rule and Sansa takes his place as ruler of the Westeros with Winterfell as the new capital since King's Landing is rubble.
 
sullydnl said:
She's gone mad. You can't expect her actions to still be in line with her character up to now. If it was then she wouldn't be mad, she be making her usual somewhat justifable decisions.
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We weren't shown she had gone mad until she made the decision to burn everyone. She was in mourning and deeply upset. But mad? Don't think that came across until she opened fire after the bells rang.
 
Shane88 said:
She demolished a heavily fortified King's Landing with the Iron Fleet, the Golden Company and the Lannister army protecting it and did it with ease. No other force can stand up to her. There are no ballistae and no Night King javelins to take out Drogon.
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Agreed. No way the final episode is another battle, Daenerys wins hands down unless Drogon decides to not fight. We've seen a glimpse before that Drogon has affection for Jon (allowed Jon to pet him). I think the only way the show ends is Daenerys being assassinated. Everything points to Arya doing it which probably makes me think it'll end up being Tyrion. Jaime the Kingslayer, Tyrion the Queenslayer.
 
Genuinely reckon they'll remake this show or the last few seasons in a decade or so, as they've pretty much butchered the plotlines IMO.
 
Shane88 said:
She demolished a heavily fortified King's Landing with the Iron Fleet, the Golden Company and the Lannister army protecting it and did it with ease. No other force can stand up to her. There are no ballistae and no Night King javelins to take out Drogon.

I don't think there's a battle. I think Jon somehow gets close to her and kills her, he refuses to rule and Sansa takes his place as ruler of the Westeros with Winterfell as the new capital since King's Landing is rubble.
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There is though a Bran, that has the ability to warg into other creatures.
 
Raees said:
Genuinely reckon they'll remake this show or the last few seasons in a decade or so, as they've pretty much butchered the plotlines IMO.
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They won't. Thats just wishful thinking. Enjoy the ride. Might be making you a bit queasy near the end but it's almost over.
 
Is it fair to say Dany has murdered 100,000 times as many people as all the shows villains combined? I'd love to get a kill count video, like the who scored most goals at what age charts you see. Poor NK would barely make the list.
 
Ban said:
I wonder how much of his grandads genes Jon have and will he go mad too? I guess we'll never find out..
Not the best start of Dannys rule if she'll ever rule at all, depending on the last episode.
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Varys said we already know where Jon's coin has fallen. I think the fact he hasn't been raised a Targ and doesn't see himself as special will prevent him from madness at least the power hungry type.

Tbh, I don't think Dany is the mad queen, more the self entitled queen who throws bigger and bigger tantrums when stuff doesn't go her way.
 
Raees said:
Genuinely reckon they'll remake this show or the last few seasons in a decade or so, as they've pretty much butchered the plotlines IMO.
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I really really hope they do once george releases the last 2 books in the next 5 years hopefully and this time just stay true to the books.

Maybe do it as movies like Harry Potter?
 
padr81 said:
Is it fair to say Dany has murdered 100,000 times as many people as all the shows villains combined? I'd love to get a kill count video, like the who scored most goals at what age charts you see. Poor NK would barely make the list.
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Crazy woman know what she did. They ll be talking about her for ages. Those that are alive to tell it that is.
 
syrian_scholes said:
I really really hope they do once george releases the last 2 books in the next 5 years hopefully and this time just stay true to the books.

Maybe do it as movies like Harry Potter?
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Movies or whatever - for me it needs to be done, as they've pretty much shat on the show from the greatest of heights.

I was watching season 4 the other day and when you look at the IMDB ratings, it's like 9.7 nearly every episode and it was genuinely some of the best TV I have ever seen.

Compare that to the shite which is being served now... this latest episode I mean seriously ... none of the character arcs seemed to conclude in a satisfying way (Dany going bad was only thing which made sense but do you need an entire episode dedicated to her setting things on fire again and again - we get the message - she’s turned heel) it all seemed clumsily put together and nothing made sense in relation to the foreshadowing which had taken place throughout their journeys.

Arya killing no one on her list and riding a horse. Feck off.
 
Shane88 said:
She demolished a heavily fortified King's Landing with the Iron Fleet, the Golden Company and the Lannister army protecting it and did it with ease. No other force can stand up to her. There are no ballistae and no Night King javelins to take out Drogon.

I don't think there's a battle. I think Jon somehow gets close to her and kills her, he refuses to rule and Sansa takes his place as ruler of the Westeros with Winterfell as the new capital since King's Landing is rubble.
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I've been thinking about this all night and half the day and I think
she's going to try to burn Jon, but he'll be fireproof. Her attempted execution will prove he's Aegon T and she'll have cost herself the crown.
 
RedSky said:
We weren't shown she had gone mad until she made the decision to burn everyone. She was in mourning and deeply upset. But mad? Don't think that came across until she opened fire after the bells rang.
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Yet we had Varys in this very episode outright say that while he was sure Jon wasn't the mad side of the Targ coin, Dany might be (something that they've spent seasons raising a possibility already). We then immediately afterwards saw her increasing paranoia and willingness to kill civillians. They set it up, then she finally transgressed as the bells rang. I don't see why they would have to set it up more beforehand by showing her wandering around talking to plants or whatever.

At some point she had to snap and take the step into doing something unjustifiably batshit. The dramatic thing was to have her take that step and break in that moment rather than have her break beforehand and just wander in to battle with us knowing she had already definitively crossed into madness.

Between repeatedly stating that she had a 50% chance of going mad, killing her children, killing her closest friends, showing her advisors turning against her, showing her paranoia, have her repeatedly threaten to burn civillians alive and have her actually brutally murder multiple enemies up to now, I think they did enough to flag in advance what was always going to be a final leap into the unacceptable.

Part of the show naturally had to be straining against that though because the whole twist is that she's someone whose side we're generally on. To make it super smooth they would have to make her definitively a bad guy first, which would ruin the twist of our "hero" going bad because we'd already be against her.
 
RedSky said:
She had no reason to take revenge on the West. Nor revenge on everybody. Where the feck has this reasoning been brought up? In what way has the West wronged her to the point of her deciding to burn everyone. It makes no sense. :lol:

Cersei and Euron are the prime reasons her friends died. Euron was with his fleet, fleet burnt, objective complete. Cersei would be at the Red Keep, City had surrendered, burn the Keep and kill Cersei, objective complete. They are the people that she wanted revenge on, little Sarah Jane of Flea Bottom had no reason to be burned. Nor Dave the fisherman, nor Steve the Ratcatcher.
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Of course she has no reason to do so. Just like she had no reason to walk into a fire with three dragon eggs. Shes nuts and she probably thinks, its the only way to go.
She told Jon she has no love only fear. Then followed it with 'all right then, let it be fear'. She had chosen then, she was going to rule by fear. And not by just killing a tyrant but by taking lives. That was her justification, which clearly nobody will follow cos its mad.
 
Remaking seasons is a ridiculous notion. I'd hate to see that happen.

padr81 said:
I've been thinking about this all night and half the day and I think
she's going to try to burn Jon, but he'll be fireproof. Her attempted execution will prove he's Aegon T and she'll have cost herself the crown.
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A popular theory but he isn't fireproof. He burnt his hand in season 1.
 
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