this show and united over the last season is a good parallel. It jumped the shark 3 seasons ago. Oh well. Nothing like destroying your own inheritance for catharsis and a block of stone being the valonqar.
Television Game of Thrones (TV) • The watch has ended
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In the latest episode of the United Hour Podcast, Nik (@Rood) is joined by CEO Duncan Drasdo and Financial Director Andy Green from the Manchester United Supporters Trust for a special episode on all things behind the scenes at Old Trafford including a brief history of MUST and their aims today, views on INEOS and Sir Jim Ratcliffe so far, and the Old Trafford regeneration.
I don't think dany was pure madness but it was through choice
She realises she doesn't have the love of the city that Jon has / would have
She can't free slaves like she did before to get them on her side as they aren't slaves
She wanted to break the wheel and didn't wanna rule by fear but I think she realised that's the only way if she was gonna be in charge
She didn't want to be queen of the ashes but she is now. Previous seasons she did some bad stuff, but it was to bad people and her advisors made sure they stopped any bad thoughts from becoming reality.
You just know if they had a few more episodes some people would complain that they telegraphed it and it was too predictable
Well some would
I'm wondering how Jon can stop dany if she surrounds herself with the troops who were happy to take part in destroying the land
She realises she doesn't have the love of the city that Jon has / would have
She can't free slaves like she did before to get them on her side as they aren't slaves
She wanted to break the wheel and didn't wanna rule by fear but I think she realised that's the only way if she was gonna be in charge
She didn't want to be queen of the ashes but she is now. Previous seasons she did some bad stuff, but it was to bad people and her advisors made sure they stopped any bad thoughts from becoming reality.
You just know if they had a few more episodes some people would complain that they telegraphed it and it was too predictable
Well some would
I'm wondering how Jon can stop dany if she surrounds herself with the troops who were happy to take part in destroying the land
At least, now we know what Daenarys dreamed about. It was not snow but ashes that were falling on King's Landing. At this point, I don't care how they end it. Dany will probably die at the hands of Jon or Arya. Who will sit on the Iron Throne is the only thing left with Jon being the likely candidate. But I'm not invested in it anymore.
It could have been Bran.
It was predictable though. In fact, loads of us did.
That was the point, it astounds me you still don't see it since I've answered all your points on it since S1. Dany was ALWAYS going bad. How that's even in debate is just weird at this point. Looking back at the whole saga, be it books or tv, she was always the bittersweet ending.
Just get it for christs sake. Just accept, GRRM always had her following the Mad King, accept that we were supposed to think Robert's rebellion and Ned were the good guys but it turns out the whole thing was based on a secret and as such they aren't so good either. Everyone is grey.
As for Dany, she has become part of the wheel, she is just as bad as the others. We meet this young sweet girl who has done no harm and we cheer for her, the queen to unbreak the chains. And end up, via circumstance and genes, with the woman who literally destroys everything but still thinks she is right.
The point is the world doesn't change, people don't change. Whoever ends on the throne, shit continues.
Yeah, but that would be terrible. Considering the horse was grazing and ignoring her.
Jaqen is the answer.
A lot of annoyance at Drogon not being killed by the scorpions. Couple of thoughts.
Viserion and Rhaegal were both killed by surprise. They couldn't or didn't surprise Drogon. Dany knew what to expect and used tactics to neautralise the Scorpions.
Came through the sunshine so they didn't see until the last minute. Closed the gap so it's harder for a larger weapon to move around. Drogon fought a lot closer to the scorpions. Changed the point of attack constantly. The dragon was more agile than the scorpions; they couldn't keep up with it.
Also, Drogon has dodged 2 spears thrown by the Night King and the scorpions last week. It isn't inconceivable that Drogon is smarter and quicker than Viserion and Rhaegal. Or at the very least, hasn't been caught by surprise.
Viserion and Rhaegal were both killed by surprise. They couldn't or didn't surprise Drogon. Dany knew what to expect and used tactics to neautralise the Scorpions.
Came through the sunshine so they didn't see until the last minute. Closed the gap so it's harder for a larger weapon to move around. Drogon fought a lot closer to the scorpions. Changed the point of attack constantly. The dragon was more agile than the scorpions; they couldn't keep up with it.
Also, Drogon has dodged 2 spears thrown by the Night King and the scorpions last week. It isn't inconceivable that Drogon is smarter and quicker than Viserion and Rhaegal. Or at the very least, hasn't been caught by surprise.
They butchered Jaime. What a shit ending for him.
On a macro level, don't think I have many complaints about how this story line will end.
But the problem is the writing and pacing. Characters are just inexplicably changing course and years of building are being chucked away to serve the plot. Even decisions that are superficially good ones (like Dany's plotline for example) were given one or two scenes of (crap) dialogue to unravel 6 seasons of trying to build her up to be something else. Even if there was some foreshadowing she would go mad, we weren't given enough reason to go along with it.
Pull that storyline out to two seasons (or even one if we didn't waste two episodes doing nothing at the start of this season), and rejig most of the characters endings (Cersei and Jaime being the big two) and you've got a satisfying ending that's not a million miles away from what we will get.
But the problem is the writing and pacing. Characters are just inexplicably changing course and years of building are being chucked away to serve the plot. Even decisions that are superficially good ones (like Dany's plotline for example) were given one or two scenes of (crap) dialogue to unravel 6 seasons of trying to build her up to be something else. Even if there was some foreshadowing she would go mad, we weren't given enough reason to go along with it.
Pull that storyline out to two seasons (or even one if we didn't waste two episodes doing nothing at the start of this season), and rejig most of the characters endings (Cersei and Jaime being the big two) and you've got a satisfying ending that's not a million miles away from what we will get.
Fking hell, what a great spectacle that was. Great TV but they rushed the Mad Queen turn. Everyone surrendered and she just got upset and tore down the city. I found it hilarious more anything.
Jamie's arc was so stupid and pointless.
Jamie's arc was so stupid and pointless.
Good points.
Well they would be if D&D didn't go the "she forgot" route. And also, those scorpions were clearly slower to turn and reload in this episode.
It's best not to think about it really
What's this?Good points.
Well they would be if D&D didn't go the "she forgot" route. And also, those scorpions were clearly slower to turn and reload in this episode.
It's best not to think about it really
They were definitely slower reloading but they haven't had to turn before have they? That was part of Dany's tactical shift. Not flying in a straight line.
She was only caught by surprise because, and I quote, "she kinda forgot about them".
Also, they could clearly turn and aim from the moment CpnJ took down Rhaegal. In fact, why wasn't he firing the weapon the second time? Caught by surprise himself? Did he kinda forget too?
And she flew in a straight line numerous times again, there wasn't a tactical shift.
I thought that was great.
I cringed a bit when Grey Worm was just like "yeah, we're just going to sail to King's Landing, after our fleet has already been fatally ambushed by Euron not once but twice. And when there suddenly was a new army of Dothrakki and when Dany just won the battle in two minutes. Burning ALL the ships and ALL the scorpions, after Dragon's have mostly been pathetically ineffective throughout the show.
I also don't think her burning the entire city wasn't sufficiently set up. It's a very big leap from dishing out dragonic (heh) punishments to traitors and getting authorative, to burning women and children alive, because.. And destroying her own city and all the Targaryen buildings in the process. If she went for the red keep, to burn Cersei then fair enough, but I don't buy this extend.
The hound turning around saying "revenge is bad,mkay" and Arya simply buying it while they were knocking at Cersei's door, when turning around into a burning and sacked city was as dangrous as continuing, was also a bit meh.
And I think Qyburn should've abandoned Cersei at one point, because I don't think he was loyal to Cersei's power and her enabling him to do his experiments, rather than to her as a person.
But I guess those two are minor criticisms at worst.
hat being said I really liked how they shot the scenes. How they captured the sheer destruction in a way that was somewhat believable and drew you in.
I also don't think her burning the entire city wasn't sufficiently set up. It's a very big leap from dishing out dragonic (heh) punishments to traitors and getting authorative, to burning women and children alive, because.. And destroying her own city and all the Targaryen buildings in the process. If she went for the red keep, to burn Cersei then fair enough, but I don't buy this extend.
The hound turning around saying "revenge is bad,mkay" and Arya simply buying it while they were knocking at Cersei's door, when turning around into a burning and sacked city was as dangrous as continuing, was also a bit meh.
And I think Qyburn should've abandoned Cersei at one point, because I don't think he was loyal to Cersei's power and her enabling him to do his experiments, rather than to her as a person.
But I guess those two are minor criticisms at worst.
hat being said I really liked how they shot the scenes. How they captured the sheer destruction in a way that was somewhat believable and drew you in.
Well those stupid Bronn scenes were completely pointless.
Yeah and it was so convenient that there was a nice clear path for Greyworm and the army to walk through KL. Luckily all the dead and rubble stayed to the sides of the paths.
There clearly was a tactical shift but we disagree on it.
If it's clear, you should be able to explain it then.
Because the only shift was using a bit of sun, she still flew directly at them, then dodged last moment. As she did in the episode before.
So what, exactly, do you mean by tactical shift? Because as a tv viewer, I obviously don't understand
Well I kind of already did in the initial post you quoted.If it's clear, you should be able to explain it then.
Because the only shift was using a bit of sun, she still flew directly at them, then dodged last moment. As she did in the episode before.
So what, exactly, do you mean by tactical shift? Because as a tv viewer, I obviously don't understand
Initially she flew straight at them but coming through the sun they didn't see her until it was too late. Still got one scorpion away but she dodged it, as she has done a few times now.
After that, she flew a lot lower, plained across the water with her tail so she was more agile and kept changing the angle of the attack. Flew from the side breathing fire, then turned quickly and flew from a different angle breathing fire. Being a lot more aggressive (mad) is also a big change from previous encounters.
Even the scorpions on the wall, she came up from behind initially and then flew from the sides destroying them.
You saying they turned the scorpions after they killed Rhaegal but you also say that Dany flew at them in a straight line that time. I'm still not sure when they've had to turn the Scorpions so quickly before.
It’s ridiculous how much they butchered Jaime’s arc. Prior to this, I genuinely thought his character arc was up there with Theon’s as the best in the show, but the way it ended it’s like, what was the point of all the development and growth his character did for him to end right back at square one?
I know you’re probably on a wind up but I actually agree. He said he had agreed to fight for the living not that he had turned his back on Cersei.
Oh come off it, you are making tactics up as one of these "oh my god they did it wrong!" Discussions.Watch it again, she literally flies straight at the fleet (a bigger one no less), then flies straight at the wall scorpions FROM BELOW then dodges last minute and goes high. You see them both struggle to turn AND reload.
Riddle me this, if they couldn't turn on the ships when Rhaegal died, how did they aim to hit him?
It's a stupid discussion as it's made for TV. But to suggest she suddenly changed tactics is hilarious.
Unsatisfactory ending for such important characters.
He went north, fecked Brienne, faced the assassin sent to kill him, said he'd stay with brienne, then last moment, because he remembered, he was actually evil decided to go back. But at no point did he turn his back on Cersei.
Nah, they fecked his redemption arc, it's clear as day we were supposed to at least try it from his and Cersei's pov, but there was lack of any consistent motives. IMO of course.
And you're only focussing on Drogons initial approach in both instances. Not what happened after.
Watch it again, she literally flies straight at the fleet (a bigger one no less), then flies straight at the wall scorpions FROM BELOW then dodges last minute and goes high. You see them both struggle to turn AND reload.
Riddle me this, if they couldn't turn on the ships when Rhaegal died, how did they aim to hit him?
It's a stupid discussion as it's made for TV. But to suggest she suddenly changed tactics is hilarious.
And aiming at Rhaegal wouldn't have been difficult. Simple actually. When you defend a coast you point at what would be coming towards that coast. The iron fleet were to the side and aiming across the coast. Rhaegal and the rest were coming towards the coast so would've crossed the fleet. That's why they shot Rhaegal from the side and hit the rest of the ships from the side.
Hiding so amazingly behind some rocks that no one saw them, that was stupid. But probably necessary to kill Rhaegal.
but why did that...last week you...where did he...I thought that... Aquinas' Cosmological...they should be...aren't they supposed to...Sebastian Shaw?...surely it would...cnuts D&D...it makes no fecking...
Like trying to follow chess being played on a snakes and ladders board.
It isn't even the bad dialogue, or all the silly story bits that is so disappointing, it's the rank carelessness of the production. It felt like that shitty internet forum game where eveyone writes a word each to create a story. Euron washing up at Jamie's feet, and then the building collapsing to reveal Hound and Mountain face to face would be too lame a joke in one of those shitty Wayans brothers spoof movies.
Burning everything to shit - ok fine (if you ignore the Tyrion debate).
Closing the hound/mountain loop - fine I guess.
Jamie and Cersei - Not graceful but that'll do pig.
Everything else - Complete and utter rubbish.
Worst episode ever. I have wasted 8 years of my life.
Like trying to follow chess being played on a snakes and ladders board.
It isn't even the bad dialogue, or all the silly story bits that is so disappointing, it's the rank carelessness of the production. It felt like that shitty internet forum game where eveyone writes a word each to create a story. Euron washing up at Jamie's feet, and then the building collapsing to reveal Hound and Mountain face to face would be too lame a joke in one of those shitty Wayans brothers spoof movies.
Burning everything to shit - ok fine (if you ignore the Tyrion debate).
Closing the hound/mountain loop - fine I guess.
Jamie and Cersei - Not graceful but that'll do pig.
Everything else - Complete and utter rubbish.
Worst episode ever. I have wasted 8 years of my life.
The golden company reminds me a lot of our defence.
So you are saying that it's simple to shoot a moving dragon out of the air, from a boat, yet it's somehow harder from a fixed point? And if they were moving across them, are we to believe that those shots were just stationary from different boats? If so, why then do we actually see them aim lower AND turn pretty quickly to target the ships?
And what was stopping Dany using these new tactics (which I understand to be moving slightly) in the initial encounter?
It's clear as day they made a point of showing them to be hard to aim and reload in the second encounter. It's tv to be fair and they couldn't let the last dragon die. That's the only thing that makes any sense, in this world of dragons existing in the first place, not "tactics".
He is a dick and always been a dick no matter how hard he tried to prove otherwise. There was never going to be any redemption for him .
I’m sure the dragon over KL shot was some vision Bran had in the earlier season, which suggests he can see the future... in which case why not tell them she’s about to burn the city?
I’m pretty sure the whole point of her was to witness the carnage & add Dany to her list... she hasn’t killed anyone with green eyes yet.
Also, I suspect this sets up the choice for Jon to choose between Stark & Targareyan... I’m sure he’ll choose Stark after what he witnessed, but the way the characters have made decisions this season, it won’t shock me if he backs sexy aunt.
Also, I suspect this sets up the choice for Jon to choose between Stark & Targareyan... I’m sure he’ll choose Stark after what he witnessed, but the way the characters have made decisions this season, it won’t shock me if he backs sexy aunt.
So why try to make us care?
Nah, I don't buy it. He did change to some degree, more than Cersei, they just portrayed it badly. Otherwise they'd have got the bad guy endings instead of the feels one.
What was the point of the Golden Company? You’d definitely want a refund.
Loved it, brilliant episode and you're all idiots on here.
They're useless without the elephants
It was Dany's vision in the house of the undying.
Yes.
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That may be fine but like every other thing, they rushed it. They made Dany go from underlying tendencies to full blown nuclear in 5 minutes and Jamie do a full 180, and therefore 360, on his character way too quick.
He also said in the earlier seasons that he killed the King to save millions of innocents. Yet this time didn't give a shit?
Okay so I've asked about being reminded of the scorpions turning before, so thanks for reminding me now. Yeah they did turn to aim at the ships, fair point.
2nd paragraph's a bit if a silly point. This is the first time she's engaged with the fleet so she hasn't had a chance to use any tactics actually. When they shot down Rhaegal she flew at them, hung about, have a dirty look then flew away to dodge the scorpions. Why didn't she use the tactic she used in today's episode? She wasn't prepared for a fight. She hadn't had time to think about how to attack. I reckon a small chunk of that time she spent alone, she probably used to think about how to attack the fleet.
We've already talked about the reloading. That's clearly an inconsistency.
On a macro level I don't think Jaime's arc was necessarily wasted. He doesn't throw his development away, he just accepts that he can't escape Cersei's pull. They just portrayed that in a really shitty way.