Gay footballers | Czech Republic international Jakub Jankto comes out as gay

Well I tried to explain more but for some reason someone's canceled my posts saying It is off topic but fair enough.

The biggest sin according to Islam is the shirk. Shirk means associating of others to Allaah. For example. Denying Allaah and saying science proves this and that or Nature creates something.
 
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Because his belief system is based on a book written over 1000 years ago, times have changed and religion needs to progress and understand the acceptance of modern society.

It is quite funny that you say that, when religion is meant to be about peace, love and acceptance, yet so much of religion is the total opposite of any of that.

Name doesn't check out.... or something :p



Surprised it took so long before someone quoted that comment :lol:
 
I agree, but it made me think. Maybe it's a bit pedantic, but wouldn't it be more accurate to say people are born as a blank slate concerning basically everything. But is the initial absence of even thinking about "where do humans and the universe come from" necessarily the same as being atheist? Not thinking about all these questions, and not being told/taught what to think, I guess means not believing in a god. But until a person actually starts asking themselves these questions, can you really say they're atheist?

Of course eventually in modern (secular) schools they will eventually be taught about evolution, but hypothetically a child could come to all kinds of conclusions or belief systems if left on their own.

I'd personally shy away from calling a baby an atheist. I get the distinction between implicit and explicit that someone else mentioned in reply to you but just don't see it as useful seeing you could also say the same thing about a huge number of concepts. As someone who lacks belief in deities myself it kind of smacks as people trying to claim others for our 'club' too, to me at least.

All dogs are atheists too, at least I assume they are if we're going down that road but I don't see the usefulness of stating that.

Relevant to this topic, no baby believes in LGBT rights. We acknowledge that they aren't able to conceptualise what they are and don't put a label on them.

I think my beef is with the word atheism really. There are no equivalent words for someone who doesn't believe in LGBT rights on the basis that they are unable to conceptualise what they are due to being too young, through severe mental impairment, or growing up in an extremely isolated community with little to no contact with the outside word. For those who are capable we'd likely call them homophobic, but there's no a-LGBT-rights-ism word or whatever it would be.

Of course there is a difference too from believing in the existence of something or not and believing that something is a good, just, or worthy concept or not. Important to point that out.

Atheist/ism really is a unique word as far as I can think of. There isn't another commonly used one that people use to denote someone who doesn't believe in the existence of something or what the actual state of reality is that many/most do believe believe in that readily springs to mind. We don't call flat earthers a-round-earthers or even anti-round-earthers to give them the equivalent of anti-theists. No word for round earth agnostics either for the few (if they exist) who'd say we cannot know. Maybe not the greatest example seeing as flat earthers are making a positive claim. I don't know, a-santa-claus-ists?

Edit: Sorry for random Saturday morning ramblings!
 
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Well I tried to explain more but for some reason someone's canceled my posts saying It is off topic but fair enough.

The biggest sin according to Islam is the shirk. Shirk means associating of others to Allaah. For example. Denying Allaah and saying science proves this and that or Nature creates something.

That last part isn't shirk
 
It's funny. We still have people who vehemently believe that homosexuality is immoral and that people deserve to he discriminated against. Because of religion of course, that immortal blanket that we can use to expose all our pathetic beliefs.
Yes but be careful. By exposing homophonic beliefs you are at risk of becoming a xfobic exponent yourself. All beliefs are to be respected, even the ones that are inherently sexist and homophonic, provided they have a holly book to go with their hate as well.

We still hear racist chants at games and they are "reasoned" by "I hate that player". I have mad respect for players that make public their sexuality, but if I'm the agent, I would advice against it. It's not worth the hate and abuse from idiots.
 
The “shirk” thing sounds interesting. I’m not Islamic, but it runs into the problem I’ve always had with people referring to things like spider webs as “natural” and things built by humans as “not natura”.
As a Christian I see science as something that illuminates things God created already. To imagine it as a counterforce to God without implying a different creator is to imagine someone embarking on scientific observation as being in par with God… with seems both a silly and heretical inference.

As to Gay players? Does anybody seriously still care anymore? At this point it’s like telling me they have red hair: I’m like “uhmmm ok, but can they shoot better than Werner?”.
 
The “shirk” thing sounds interesting. I’m not Islamic, but it runs into the problem I’ve always had with people referring to things like spider webs as “natural” and things built by humans as “not natura”.
As a Christian I see science as something that illuminates things God created already. To imagine it as a counterforce to God without implying a different creator is to imagine someone embarking on scientific observation as being in par with God… with seems both a silly and heretical inference.

As to Gay players? Does anybody seriously still care anymore? At this point it’s like telling me they have red hair: I’m like “uhmmm ok, but can they shoot better than Werner?”.

In basic form shirk is associating partners with Allah/God.

With regards to science and evolution these haven't been put into that category in Islam according to the scholars. Both played a part in Islam from scholars in the "golden age" of Islam. I wrote about it before that Al Tusi (iirc) wrote about evolution something like 600 years before Darwin's book.

Form what little I know even Christianity has a history of science from many years ago. I forget the name but I mentioned a Belgian Christian who did some works.

Somewhere along the lines there has become a science v religion discussion/argument. As in one doesn't go with the other. I don't agree with this and in simple terms religion had a lot of input into science in history some of it simply because the religious institutions produced literacy and the time and scope to delve into these matters.
 
In basic form shirk is associating partners with Allah/God.

With regards to science and evolution these haven't been put into that category in Islam according to the scholars. Both played a part in Islam from scholars in the "golden age" of Islam. I wrote about it before that Al Tusi (iirc) wrote about evolution something like 600 years before Darwin's book.

Form what little I know even Christianity has a history of science from many years ago. I forget the name but I mentioned a Belgian Christian who did some works.

Somewhere along the lines there has become a science v religion discussion/argument. As in one doesn't go with the other. I don't agree with this and in simple terms religion had a lot of input into science in history some of it simply because the religious institutions produced literacy and the time and scope to delve into these matters.
I’m not sure if I got it across, but I essentially agree with you. I guess the fundamental misconception being that if I, say, study the nature of atomic structures, that I can’t also believe God created them. Some of the most important scientists in history have been devout, including Newton and Einstein.
 
I still find it bizarre that in this day and age people have to come out and announce where they stick their penis behind closed doors, and even more so that other people actually give a shit.
 
I still find it bizarre that in this day and age people have to come out and announce where they stick their penis behind closed doors, and even more so that other people actually give a shit.
Isn't this just trying to avoid the issue and only likening sexuality to mere sex acts?
 
I have a question which I'm not sure how to ask.

Basically can you disagree with homosexuality yet not be a homophobe?

I mean no disrespect here and am unsure of the phrasing, as in the word disagree.

What would the reasons for disagreeing with others being gay be? I imagine religion would be the only reason?
 
Isn't this just trying to avoid the issue and only likening sexuality to mere sex acts?
Not really, no, it's saying I'm surprised people are bothered by what other consenting adults do in private. You say I'm boiling it down to a sex act, but that's what most of homophobia seems to be offended by.
 
I still find it bizarre that in this day and age people have to come out and announce where they stick their penis behind closed doors, and even more so that other people actually give a shit.

I think it’s a little more complex then just sticking their penis behind closed doors. It’s more a society problem than a sexual one. It’s taken a long long time to get to the stage where they have some normality and equal rights and it’s still not there.
 
Not really, no, it's saying I'm surprised people are bothered by what other consenting adults do in private. You say I'm boiling it down to a sex act, but that's what most of homophobia seems to be offended by.
But homosexuality isn't private, the sex part usually is but that's not all there is to it and in some cases the sex part may not exist or be penetrative. It's just one part of sexuality and overall dating and relationships.

2 men holding hands and kissing in public is an act of homosexuality and there are people who will fight against that which provokes the need to have people who fight for it.

I think it’s a little more complex then just sticking their penis behind closed doors. It’s more a society problem than a sexual one. It’s taken a long long time to get to the stage where they have some normality and equal rights and it’s still not there.
This is what I'm getting at.
 
Yes, but what seems to be at the heart of homophobia? It doesn't seem to be about two men enjoying dinner together, or sharing a house together etc. does it? Most if not all homophobic abuse seems to be about the physical element. And that people still care what others do is surprising to me.
 
Yes, but what seems to be at the heart of homophobia? It doesn't seem to be about two men enjoying dinner together, or sharing a house together etc. does it? Most if not all homophobic abuse seems to be about the physical element. And that people still care what others do is surprising to me.
That's what people mention most and might be at the heart of it; but ultimately, homophobes will comment on any expression of a homosexual relationship, including any indication of simply being in that relationship (like holding hands on the street). Plus, the general assumption for many is still that everyone is heterosexual until there is any different indication.

As such, even something as simple as holding hands is a kind of coming out if people weren't aware before. That's why homosexual people that are famous and are in a relationship can't just go about their daily lives like heterosexual people would until their sexuality is 'official', and people still need to come out. Or in any case, that's why people are still said to come out, cause even if you think you don't need to come out ('why would this still be news in this day and age?!'), holding your same-sex partner's hand in public will end up as a coming-out story in the (social) media anyway. So then it might be better to come out 'officially', so you can at least control the narrative - or keep it hidden forever if you don't want that kind of attention.
 
Out of interest (genuinely) how does it work if you’re gay and a practising Muslim? Or a practising Muslim mother / father of a gay son or daughter?
 
Out of interest (genuinely) how does it work if you’re gay and a practising Muslim? Or a practising Muslim mother / father of a gay son or daughter?
We have practicing Muslims that are openly gay in the UK, some will have homophobic parents and some won't. Not really sure what you're asking, if you want more than that?
 
What would the reasons for disagreeing with others being gay be? I imagine religion would be the only reason?


Not so sure religion is the only reason. There are many examples I know of/can give where homophobia has come from non religious aspects/places.

Just as an example. We had two mayor's in our city and both were gay men. Both had been physically attacked. The first one quite severely coming out of a gay bar in another city. Both had enough support from local religious places/people to become mayor and the people who attached them, once caught, were just yobs and not religious.

The institutions and individuals who supported these guys, and were religious, don't necessarily agree with homosexuality (as per their religion) but didn't discriminate in electing them and certainly weren't violent towards them.

I wonder if our choice of phrases may be an issue/shed light? As in I used "disagreeing with homosexuality" and you chose "disagreeing with other being gay".

Religious people tend to disagree with homosexuality due to scripture etc but can be fine with individuals they know being gay. Violence at street level against gay people doesn't necessarily come from a religious place.

America is a different issue I accept.
 
Out of interest (genuinely) how does it work if you’re gay and a practising Muslim? Or a practising Muslim mother / father of a gay son or daughter?

? You’d be a gay Muslim, or a straight Muslim or any other type of Muslim. Some parts of your community won’t accept you but some do. I’m a non Muslim man married to a Muslim woman and she is shunned in parts of her community due to that / only some imams would do the ceremony for us, but I think a lot of Muslims/other religions have moved on from the past and evolve. The religion and other religions are always evolving and your interpretation of that faith and how you practice it will be different.
 
Out of interest (genuinely) how does it work if you’re gay and a practising Muslim? Or a practising Muslim mother / father of a gay son or daughter?
I think most religions don't mind if people are gay, only if they act on it (i.e., have homosexual sex).

But religions also tend to be pretty ambiguous and allow for various interpretations of the 'rules' depending on which source (book, verse, whatever) you're looking at. So a gay individual or their parents can probably interpret their religion as being OK with homosexuality in spirit if not always in writing.

Plus many people are anyway not so religious that they follow the relevant prescriptions very closely. If someone is picking and choosing already anyway (to whatever extent), sexuality doesn't have to be a big issue.
 
Out of interest (genuinely) how does it work if you’re gay and a practising Muslim? Or a practising Muslim mother / father of a gay son or daughter?

What you have to understand about Muslims is that it's not really broken up into gay and straight as such. The issue of sex is more broad and bigger.

Islamically the "rules/punishment" etc aren't as centred around gay people as we sometimes hear or think. They come under guidelines of sex generally.

In Asian communities (Pakistani/Indian) the issue isn't often about what the kids get up to (or adults for that matter) it's about keeping it on the down low/quiet.
 
What would the reasons for disagreeing with others being gay be? I imagine religion would be the only reason?
By no means the only reason, particularly if you think about religion's declining importance in society. Plenty of people are bigots, fear of those different, been indoctrinated by their parents or whatever. Plenty of religious people are perfectly tolerant and welcoming of gay people into their religions too.

The stigma of the penetrated male goes way back too. Even though ancient Greece say blokes with younger boys as a noble thing, penetration was a no-no, and something only women would do and given the views of the time, women were way down the social strata.
 
? You’d be a gay Muslim, or a straight Muslim or any other type of Muslim. Some parts of your community won’t accept you but some do. I’m a non Muslim man married to a Muslim woman and she is shunned in parts of her community due to that / only some imams would do the ceremony for us, but I think a lot of Muslims/other religions have moved on from the past and evolve. The religion and other religions are always evolving and your interpretation of that faith and how you practice it will be different.

I'm not speaking about your situation specifically, as I don't know it but I am aware of Muslim girls who marry non Muslim guys and are in effect shunned.

Often this does boil down to religion and what the "society/community" will say.

However for the imams the explanation is simple (not saying you will/have agree). The nikah (or marriage ceremony) is different to marriage ceremonies as we see in law. There are specifics in nikah. So a woman can't be pregnant. The participants have to be Muslim etc.

As a general rule the nikah isn't accepted as a marriage in UK. But I could marry a couple with two witnesses. It doesn't have to be an imam.

Special dispensation is given to certain imams and mosques, who do the nikah and the register it. This then is accepted as a marriage in UK. Plenty of Muslims I know who are "married" but it's not recognised here. Similarly plenty who are recognised here but technically not married Islamically.

Many nikahs involving a non Muslim do get recognised if the non Muslim party "becomes Muslim". See likes of Robin van Persie. He isn't a Muslim but became one to marry/purpose of marriage. The Sikh community can't have more than one wife. Many "become Muslim" to marry a second.

Again not saying you have to agree (general you not you personally) however for a nikah there are certain conditions that have to be met. Take the pregnancy example. If a nikah is done when the woman is pregnant it's invalid. And needs to be redone.

Often times in Asian communities in UK the issues start before marriage . So a child running away and getting married (to a Muslim or not) will be outcast not because of the marriage itself but the running away part.
 
I think on the whole, football has become more inclusive over the last few years and these lads will be supported by the majority. There will obviously be a few idiots who target them, and I can think of a few clubs that will have a large section of fans that will be disgraceful but all in all I'm glad the lads that have come out recently are comfortable enough to do so.
 
I think on the whole, football has become more inclusive over the last few years and these lads will be supported by the majority. There will obviously be a few idiots who target them, and I can think of a few clubs that will have a large section of fans that will be disgraceful but all in all I'm glad the lads that have come out recently are comfortable enough to do so.

I think the referees may get more abuse than the player. Simply because refs get more abuse when making decisions generally.

I also feel the media need to take a step back. I remember when we had the female lino I always felt the media scrutiny on her was greater than the terraces. It just amplified everything.
 
I think the referees may get more abuse than the player. Simply because refs get more abuse when making decisions generally.

I also feel the media need to take a step back. I remember when we had the female lino I always felt the media scrutiny on her was greater than the terraces. It just amplified everything.
She's still around, isn't she? Think she had some maternity time off but back at it these days.
 
For me it's a fact, but aparantly not for this guy. Almost feel sorry for the thread that he only has 5 (i think) posts a day, this thread would be lit if he could post as much as he wanted :lol:

Anyone who don't believe you're born atheist, should ask themselves why people "accidentally" get the same religion that's most common in the area.

It's definitely not off topic to discuss religion in this thread.

Babies are not born atheist, babies are not born agnostic, babies are not born believing in god(s)

They haven't considered any of these concepts yet so they are none of them.
 
https://www.bbc.com/sport/football/61671888

Scottish referees Craig Napier and Lloyd Wilson come out as gay



I was in university with Lloyd for 4 years.

He always identified difficulties faced as a referee and the abuse received. Very brave decision in the football world for a referee to come out. It shouldn’t be this way but you just know what drunken fans will be like.
 
We have practicing Muslims that are openly gay in the UK, some will have homophobic parents and some won't. Not really sure what you're asking, if you want more than that?
? You’d be a gay Muslim, or a straight Muslim or any other type of Muslim. Some parts of your community won’t accept you but some do. I’m a non Muslim man married to a Muslim woman and she is shunned in parts of her community due to that / only some imams would do the ceremony for us, but I think a lot of Muslims/other religions have moved on from the past and evolve. The religion and other religions are always evolving and your interpretation of that faith and how you practice it will be different.
I think most religions don't mind if people are gay, only if they act on it (i.e., have homosexual sex).

But religions also tend to be pretty ambiguous and allow for various interpretations of the 'rules' depending on which source (book, verse, whatever) you're looking at. So a gay individual or their parents can probably interpret their religion as being OK with homosexuality in spirit if not always in writing.

Plus many people are anyway not so religious that they follow the relevant prescriptions very closely. If someone is picking and choosing already anyway (to whatever extent), sexuality doesn't have to be a big issue.
What you have to understand about Muslims is that it's not really broken up into gay and straight as such. The issue of sex is more broad and bigger.

Islamically the "rules/punishment" etc aren't as centred around gay people as we sometimes hear or think. They come under guidelines of sex generally.

In Asian communities (Pakistani/Indian) the issue isn't often about what the kids get up to (or adults for that matter) it's about keeping it on the down low/quiet.

Thanks for taking the time to reply. I am not looking to judge - live and let live I always think - just to understand a bit better, and now I do.
 
I think most religions don't mind if people are gay, only if they act on it (i.e., have homosexual sex).

It's better than nothing I suppose but leads to, what seems like insanity to me, of those Mormons I saw on a documentary who are married to women but experience 'same sex attraction' and meet up with a support group of other men who also experience 'same sex attraction' and everything's fine, nothing to see here at all.
 
? You’d be a gay Muslim, or a straight Muslim or any other type of Muslim. Some parts of your community won’t accept you but some do. I’m a non Muslim man married to a Muslim woman and she is shunned in parts of her community due to that / only some imams would do the ceremony for us, but I think a lot of Muslims/other religions have moved on from the past and evolve. The religion and other religions are always evolving and your interpretation of that faith and how you practice it will be different.

Depends more on where you live i think. Majority Muslim are still strongly against Gays. Not only dislike or phobia but actively taking measure in chastising them. Calling it as evil sin, etc.

My opinion is that religious leaders care more about their flocks and whatever is the majority views they'd simple take that stance to till up their congregations.

Even vatican would have to reluctantly work their way around LGBT. I think we're still a long way to go before majority of people accepted LGBT from the heart and not just accepting it because its 21 st century
 
Depends more on where you live i think. Majority Muslim are still strongly against Gays. Not only dislike or phobia but actively taking measure in chastising them. Calling it as evil sin, etc.

My opinion is that religious leaders care more about their flocks and whatever is the majority views they'd simple take that stance to till up their congregations.

Even vatican would have to reluctantly work their way around LGBT. I think we're still a long way to go before majority of people accepted LGBT from the heart and not just accepting it because its 21 st century


In Muslim countries you are more at risk messing with a girl than taking part in homosexual acts.

I only speak of the ones I've lived in or been to.
 
Yes, but what seems to be at the heart of homophobia? It doesn't seem to be about two men enjoying dinner together, or sharing a house together etc. does it? Most if not all homophobic abuse seems to be about the physical element. And that people still care what others do is surprising to me.

Bill Burr put it nicely once, much of the homophobia from people comes from the physical stuff. But then compare that to say their sister, who you can assume gives or has given oral to her husband, and thats gross to think about, but you still want her to be loved in life.
 
I’m not sure if I got it across, but I essentially agree with you. I guess the fundamental misconception being that if I, say, study the nature of atomic structures, that I can’t also believe God created them. Some of the most important scientists in history have been devout, including Newton and Einstein.
Einstein was absolutely not devoutly religious.
 
Religious people believe in sin and punishment and afterlife and all that, all the more reason to leave the homosexuals alone, god will handle it after they die.

Also, whether or not you agree with homosexuality or think it's natural or not, has got nothing to do with treating the LGBTQ people fairly and without prejudice.