Gay Marriage

Gannicus

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If there's already a thread on this topic...


Arguments were presented today before the US Supreme Court on the question, broadly speaking, as to whether same sex individuals have a constitutional right to the same legal form of marriage as individuals who are not of the same sex. Put another way, whether states have the constitutional power to deny, should they so choose, same sex individuals the same right to marry as is enjoyed by opposite sex individuals.

This seems an easy question, given any plausible reading of the Fourteenth Amendment, but I'm wondering what views caftards, regardless of any prior awareness of the Fourteenth Amendment or not, have on this matter.

The Fourteenth Amendment, in pertinent part:

All persons born or naturalized in the United States, and subject to the jurisdiction thereof, are citizens of the United States and of the state wherein they reside. No state shall make or enforce any law which shall abridge the privileges or immunities of citizens of the United States; nor shall any state deprive any person of life, liberty, or property, without due process of law; nor deny to any person within its jurisdiction the equal protection of the laws.
 
I see it as a broader issue in the states - not just about marriage but whether the liberty of LGBT people trumps the so called "religious freedom" of people and groups who want to use religion as a shield to discriminate against gays.
 
It really annoys me that this is even a "debate".
 
Referendum on this in Ireland in a few weeks. Lot of controversy recently with some of the tactics of the "No" side.
 
It really annoys me that this is even a "debate".

The fact that there is a debate is a sign of massive progress actually. Just 7 years ago, Obama found himself tap dancing around the issue.

 
The fact that there is a debate is a sign of massive progress actually. Just 7 years ago, Obama found himself tap dancing around the issue.



Absolutely, it's great but still... I don't view it as a real debate because one side isn't using logic. Maybe that just makes me arrogant though.
 
Absolutely, it's great but still... I don't view it as a real debate because one side isn't using logic. Maybe that just makes me arrogant though.

On the other hand, the more this issue is debated, the more likely more people are going to see the logic of giving LGBT people their rights.
 
"If you are against gay marriage it's for one of two reasons; (a) you're really dumb or (b) you are worried that dicks are delicious." - Winston Churchill.
 
On the other hand, the more this issue is debated, the more likely more people are going to see the logic of giving LGBT people their rights.

Aye I'd much rather the current situation that to rewind even 5 years.
 
Was it similar to the posters that managed to piss off every single parent in the country?

Yeah, same shite, expanded upon. Including an amazing section on how a "Yes" vote was damaging to children's education because it might mean they end up being taught that homosexuality is normal at school.
 
It's used in political debates all the time and has been for years in UK, Ireland and the states. I am so damn sick of it

Thankfully in a months time we will never have to hear from it again Ireland.

Honestly the most pointless thing ever, it affects absolutely nobody and no one will notice once it gets passed.
 
Yeah, same shite, expanded upon. Including an amazing section on how a "Yes" vote was damaging to children's education because it might mean they end up being taught that homosexuality is normal at school.
Ah yes, the "No" side's nightmare scenario. :rolleyes:

I actually can't wait for the referendum, I've seen people so invested in any referendum/election. Everyone has an opinion.
 
It's used in political debates all the time and has been for years in UK, Ireland and the states. I am so damn sick of it

Thankfully in a months time we will never have to hear from it again Ireland.

Honestly the most pointless thing ever, it affects absolutely nobody and no one will notice once it gets passed.

Not sure about that last para. It will affect a lot of gay people who want to get married. They'll notice.
 
From SCOTUS:


It could turn out to be a nailbiter. After two-and-a-half hours of oral argument in the same-sex marriage cases, it was not clear where Justice Anthony Kennedy – and therefore the rest of the Court – was headed. Let’s talk about the oral argument in Plain English.

The arguments started with what many people refer to as the “marriage question” – whether the Constitution requires states to allow same-sex marriages. Representing the same-sex couples challenging the state bans, Mary Bonauto ran into tough questions from Chief Justice John Roberts and Justices Samuel Alito and Antonin Scalia. Roberts suggested that adopting Bonauto’s position would “redefine” marriage, adding that “every definition I looked up until about a dozen years ago” defined marriage as a union between a man and a woman. The plaintiffs could not have been encouraged when Justice Anthony Kennedy, who is probably their best bet to join the Court’s more liberal Justices to strike down the bans, echoed this idea. He told Bonauto that the traditional definition of marriage has been around for millennia, but it has only been a little over a decade since the Court held that Texas could not criminalize sex between two consenting adults of the same sex. That may be a long time for scholars, he pointed out, but it isn’t very long compared to the big picture, and “it’s very difficult for the Court to say we know better.”

Two other members of the Court’s conservative bloc, Justices Samuel Alito and Antonin Scalia, also left little doubt that their sympathies lay with the states. Like the Chief Justice, Alito reminded Bonauto that, until the end of the twentieth century, there weren’t any countries that allowed same-sex marriages. And later he expressed concern about whether ruling for Bonauto’s clients might require states to allow other kinds of marriages – such as a marriage between two men and two women. Scalia framed the question before the Court much as the states had in their briefs, telling Bonauto that the “issue is who should decide? You are asking us to decide for this society when no other state has had [same-sex marriage] until 2001?”

Arguing on behalf of the federal government in support of the plaintiffs, U.S. Solicitor General Don Verrilli faced a similar barrage of questions from the Court’s more conservative Justices during his fifteen minutes at the lectern. In particular, Justice Kennedy reminded Verrilli that in an earlier case, the Court had indicated that it should define a “fundamental right” in “its narrowest terms” – a precedent that would not necessarily bode well for the plaintiffs. What, he asked Verrilli, should the Court do about that rule in this case? As he had during Bonauto’s argument, Justice Scalia then suggested that the Court should leave the issue for “the people” to decide, but Verrilli countered in his final remarks that the plaintiffs in the case deserve to have their constitutional rights now, without being required to wait to gain public support.

John Bursch, the former solicitor general of Michigan, represented the four states. He began by emphasizing what was not before the Court: whether the four states were “ready” for same-sex marriage. The question, he made clear, was who gets to decide whether the states must allow same-sex marriages. And he asked the Court to uphold a different right: the voters’ “individual fundamental liberty interest” to define the meaning of marriage.

Bursch spent most of his oral argument time sparring with the Court’s four more liberal Justices – Breyer, Ginsburg, Kagan, and Sotomayor – about the states’ rationale for prohibiting same-sex marriage. Bursch maintained that the states were not limiting marriage to opposite-sex couples because they wanted to confer second-class status on same-sex couples, but because of society’s vision of marriage as an institution centered around having children and encouraging parents to stay married and bonded to their children. The idea that marriage is about love and commitment is important, he said, but the state doesn’t have any interest in that idea. All four of the more liberal Justices seemed highly skeptical of his justifications. How, Justice Ginsburg asked, does allowing same-sex marriage take anything away from opposite-sex couples? Being married, Justice Sotomayor pointed out, doesn’t stop parents from getting divorced and abandoning their children. Justice Breyer chimed in, observing that a “very high percentage” of opposite-sex couples don’t have children, while a similarly high percentage of same-sex couples do.

Significantly, Justice Anthony Kennedy at times also seemed dubious of the states’ argument. Even if same-sex couples can’t have biological children together, he posited, they might still want the other benefits that come with marriage. Like his more liberal counterparts, he also appeared to question Bursch’s assertion that allowing same-sex marriages would harm opposite-sex marriages, as well as the contention that only opposite-sex couples can bond with their children.

After ninety minutes of oral argument on the marriage question, the Court turned to the second question in the case: whether states can prohibit same-sex marriages but nonetheless be required to recognize same-sex marriages that legally took place somewhere else. This question only comes into play if the states win on the marriage question; if the Court were to rule that each state is constitutionally required to allow same-sex marriages by its own citizens, it becomes a non-issue.

Arguing on behalf of the challengers in the case, Douglas Hallward-Dreimeier emphasized that the states’ refusal to recognize same-sex marriages is a “stark departure” from the general practice of recognizing virtually all marriages. This argument seemed to find some traction with the Chief Justice, who asked Joseph Whalen – arguing on behalf of the states – when his home state of Tennessee had last declined to recognize a marriage in another context besides same-sex marriage. The answer? 1970, in a case involving a stepfather who had married his stepdaughter. But at another point, the Chief Justice suggested that, given how mobile our society is these days, requiring states that don’t allow same-sex marriage to recognize same-sex marriages from other states would mean that “one state can basically set policy for the entire nation.”

So where does this leave us? Once again, it may all come down to Justice Kennedy, and he didn’t tip his hand during his questions and comments in the first part of today’s arguments. Kevin Russell, who contributes frequently to this blog, has suggested that the Chief Justice’s questions during the second part of the oral argument could be part of an effort to broker a compromise, in which the Court rules that there is no right to same-sex marriage but still gives the plaintiffs much of what they are seeking by requiring states to recognize same-sex marriages that happen somewhere else. Notably, however, Justice Anthony Kennedy was quiet during the arguments on the recognition question. Does that silence mean that he had already decided to rule for the plaintiffs on the first question, eliminating any need to worry about the second one? His colleagues will know the answer later on this week, when they meet to vote on the case. We won’t know until the Court issues its decision in late June, but when we do we will be back to report on it in Plain English.

##

It seems to me Justice Kennedy will likely write the court opinion to invalidate same-sex marriage prohibitions, relying heavily on the authority of the equal protection clause of the Fourteenth Amendment.

Quite appropriately so.
 
Shame the opinion won't be unanimous. Such a potentially groundbreaking statute deserves a strong voice from the Judiciary, not a verdict split along ideological lines.
 
What are polls saying will happen when you lot vote?

It's not even close. But as Pogue says it depends on the turnout. The older generation always have better turnout stats which might go against it

I haven't voted for years. So I probably won't either this time due to laziness, but I would be shocked if it's not a yes. Also will make Ireland look very backward too
 
'Marriage is a religious thing. Why should priests be forced to marry two people when its against their belief and they've stood behind those beliefs for so many years? Why do gay people even want to marry when religion doesn't want to accept them?' That is the opinion of two of my mates. I'm voting yes and personally I'd be really embarrassed as an Irish person if the result was No, but whats the counter to that opinion? I really don't like religion so it's a point that I shrug off, but I don't know what the response is to it.
 
"If you are against gay marriage it's for one of two reasons; (a) you're really dumb or (b) you are worried that dicks are delicious." - Winston Churchill.

Winston Churchill wouldn't say anything so moronic.
 
'Marriage is a religious thing. Why should priests be forced to marry two people when its against their belief and they've stood behind those beliefs for so many years? Why do gay people even want to marry when religion doesn't want to accept them?' That is the opinion of two of my mates. I'm voting yes and personally I'd be really embarrassed as an Irish person if the result was No, but whats the counter to that opinion? I really don't like religion so it's a point that I shrug off, but I don't know what the response is to it.

It's got feck all to do with religion, it's to do with equality and being looked at and treated the same as other married couples. You get more tax benefits and benefits like inheritance etc when you are legally married, not forgetting the benefits when couples seperate. Plus some just want to do what the majority of other couples do when in love, get married.

With Church attendances falling and public opinion clearly against the Church's position, you would think they would welcome the extra income from holding gay weddings.
 
'Marriage is a religious thing. Why should priests be forced to marry two people when its against their belief and they've stood behind those beliefs for so many years? Why do gay people even want to marry when religion doesn't want to accept them?' That is the opinion of two of my mates. I'm voting yes and personally I'd be really embarrassed as an Irish person if the result was No, but whats the counter to that opinion? I really don't like religion so it's a point that I shrug off, but I don't know what the response is to it.

Which religion does marriage belong to?
 
'Marriage is a religious thing. Why should priests be forced to marry two people when its against their belief and they've stood behind those beliefs for so many years? Why do gay people even want to marry when religion doesn't want to accept them?' That is the opinion of two of my mates. I'm voting yes and personally I'd be really embarrassed as an Irish person if the result was No, but whats the counter to that opinion? I really don't like religion so it's a point that I shrug off, but I don't know what the response is to it.

Is it though?
 
What Christians or Muslims believe with respect to marriage has nothing to do with the question presently before the court.

No one is proposing to force by law a religion to embrace or in any way accept gay marriage.

Anthony Kennedy, who grew up in the town I now call home, will write an opinion for the ages and the right-wing crazies will go nuclear.

The dissenting opinion will be filled, sadly, with absurdities and ridiculous hypothetical slippery-slope scenarios such as polygamy, bestiality and the evils of sodomy. I bet anyone here a Jackson that there's at least one reference to "the twin relics of barbarism".
 
I'd dissolve the legal standing of marriage altogether, hetero- and homosexual. A government shouldn't have any kind of registry for who loves whom amongst its citizens. I'm sure that'll happen at some point in the future. But the clusterfeck of tax regulations that's gonna result will put politicians off for generations.

Put marriages solely in the realm of non-state institutions like the church or mosques or the Jedi council and everybody'll be happy.
 
I believe marriage is inherently between a man and a woman by definition. Therefore it's incoherent to speak of same-sex marriage; that's not what marriage is. Most people posting on this topic seem to think that marriage is just a social convention adopted by society - like driving on the right, or left-hand side of the road. We could just as easily adopt the opposite side of the road as convention. Or even reverse the function of the colours of our traffic lights (go on red, stop on green).

In the words of someone much more intelligent than myself, 'I would say that marriage has always and everywhere been defined and understood to be between a man and a woman, and that, therefore, the union of two persons of the same sex, whatever you might want to call it, just isn’t marriage. It would be as if someone wanted to redefine what it means to be an heir of someone else. Suppose I say, “I want to be the heir of Bill Gates,” and someone says, “Well, you can’t be. To be an heir you have to be designated in the will. You have to be a legal designee,” and I say, “Well, no. I don’t think we should define heir that way. I think an heir can be anybody who would like to have that fortune, and so, that is the way I think an heir should be defined and therefore, I want to be an heir of Bill Gates, and I am his heir.” Well, I think you can see that is just absurd. You are just arbitrarily redefining words. That is not what they mean. Similarly, I would say the same thing for marriage."

Furthermore, the title of this thread is Gay Marriage, whereas it should really be Same-Sex Marriage since it's differentiated from 'regular' marriage through gender, and not through sexual orientation. Gay people have been perfectly free to marry - just not to members of the same gender! So opposing same-sex marriage on these grounds isn't a question of discriminating against homosexuality.

People seem to be convinced that to oppose same-sex marriage is to be intolerant, to be close minded, and to be bigoted against a certain class of people, but I disagree. Tolerance should mean, “though I disagree with what you say, I will defend to the death, your right to say it.” So we tolerate people but we discriminate between views. We discriminate views as true or false though we tolerate those who advocate false views. We recognize their right to an opinion and their right to express it. But in the new tolerance, the kind of new value that has been accepted, you discriminate against people but you tolerate all views. So, that you tolerate same-sex marriage as well as traditional marriage. You tolerate all the views, but now you will discriminate, for example, against those who hold traditional views, by calling them bigots and intolerant and rejecting them and vilifying them.

And I expect my views to be tolerated ;)
 
I believe marriage is inherently between a man and a woman by definition. Therefore it's incoherent to speak of same-sex marriage; that's not what marriage is. Most people posting on this topic seem to think that marriage is just a social convention adopted by society - like driving on the right, or left-hand side of the road. We could just as easily adopt the opposite side of the road as convention. Or even reverse the function of the colours of our traffic lights (go on red, stop on green).
Who's definition?

In the words of someone much more intelligent than myself, 'I would say that marriage has always and everywhere been defined and understood to be between a man and a woman, and that, therefore, the union of two persons of the same sex, whatever you might want to call it, just isn’t marriage. It would be as if someone wanted to redefine what it means to be an heir of someone else. Suppose I say, “I want to be the heir of Bill Gates,” and someone says, “Well, you can’t be. To be an heir you have to be designated in the will. You have to be a legal designee,” and I say, “Well, no. I don’t think we should define heir that way. I think an heir can be anybody who would like to have that fortune, and so, that is the way I think an heir should be defined and therefore, I want to be an heir of Bill Gates, and I am his heir.” Well, I think you can see that is just absurd. You are just arbitrarily redefining words. That is not what they mean. Similarly, I would say the same thing for marriage."
:lol:

Furthermore, the title of this thread is Gay Marriage, whereas it should really be Same-Sex Marriage since it's differentiated from 'regular' marriage through gender, and not through sexual orientation. Gay people have been perfectly free to marry - just not to members of the same gender! So opposing same-sex marriage on these grounds isn't a question of discriminating against homosexuality.
Ah yes, we all remember when Elton John had to pretend to be straight. What a terrific marriage he had.

People seem to be convinced that to oppose same-sex marriage is to be intolerant, to be close minded, and to be bigoted against a certain class of people, but I disagree. Tolerance should mean, “though I disagree with what you say, I will defend to the death, your right to say it.” So we tolerate people but we discriminate between views. We discriminate views as true or false though we tolerate those who advocate false views. We recognize their right to an opinion and their right to express it. But in the new tolerance, the kind of new value that has been accepted, you discriminate against people but you tolerate all views. So, that you tolerate same-sex marriage as well as traditional marriage. You tolerate all the views, but now you will discriminate, for example, against those who hold traditional views, by calling them bigots and intolerant and rejecting them and vilifying them.

And I expect my views to be tolerated ;)
No one's saying you're not allowed to have these opinions. But that they're wrong and at times laughably wrong.
 
'Marriage is a religious thing. Why should priests be forced to marry two people when its against their belief and they've stood behind those beliefs for so many years? Why do gay people even want to marry when religion doesn't want to accept them?' That is the opinion of two of my mates. I'm voting yes and personally I'd be really embarrassed as an Irish person if the result was No, but whats the counter to that opinion? I really don't like religion so it's a point that I shrug off, but I don't know what the response is to it.

People said the same about those who wanted mixed race marriages, now you'll find very little opposition to it. The same will happen to same sex marriage soon enough. I also think straight couples should be allowed to have a civil union if they wish.