General Election 2017 | Cabinet reshuffle: Hunt re-appointed Health Secretary for record third time

How do you intend to vote in the 2017 General Election if eligible?

  • Conservatives

    Votes: 80 14.5%

  • Labour

    Votes: 322 58.4%

  • Lib Dems

    Votes: 57 10.3%

  • Green

    Votes: 20 3.6%

  • SNP

    Votes: 13 2.4%

  • UKIP

    Votes: 29 5.3%

  • Independent

    Votes: 3 0.5%

  • Plaid Cymru

    Votes: 2 0.4%

  • Sinn Fein

    Votes: 11 2.0%

  • Other (UUP, DUP, BNP, and anyone else I have forgotten)

    Votes: 14 2.5%
  • Total voters
    551
  • Poll closed .
If you're looking for specifics the fact that he stood up yesterday, two days after the Tory announced their social care policy, and said it was a "cap of £100,000" when it isn't what their policy is at all doesn't exactly fill you with confidence.

When the leader of the opposition can't even be bothered to know what the government's policy is after TWO DAYS, during an election campaign is concerning.

I don't think he actually says anything at these speeches that you can't compare to a Miss World speech. Vague nonsense about a fairer society, world peace and stuff. If they gave Corbyn a tiara and a sash I'm not sure anyone would really notice the difference.

As for the crowds, when we get a Tory majority circa 150, I'm not going to be comforted by the fact that Corbyn spoke to many students with many signs, many times. You might. I won't. Maybe when your parents have to experience the reality of Tory-funded social care you can reassure them that life might be hell but Jeremy Corbyn spoke to some really, really, big crowds.
 
It's not "Fake News" to suggest the media are largely backing May and carrying out a systemic character assassination of Corbyn.
 
Kaos said:
It's not "Fake News" to suggest the media are largely backing May and carrying out a systemic character assassination of Corbyn.
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The media don't like Corbyn, same as the US media don't like Trump. But Corbyn isn't useless and Trump isn't dangerously incompetent because the media don't like them. Corbyn isn't clueless about what it is he's arguing against (in the sense of Tory social care plans) because the Daily Mail are mean to him. Trump isn't covering up Russian collusion because SNL portrayals of him are unflattering.

Just because the media says the Emperor has a small dick doesn't mean he's actually wearing clothes.

I'm sorry a flag ship policy announced by the Tories on social care announced 3 weeks before the election. Corbyn's position two days after the policy was announced? He still didn't know what it was.

"But the media....!!!" is the new "But her emails.....!!!"

Accept it. It's reality.
 
Oscie said:
The media don't like Corbyn, same as the US media don't like Trump. But Corbyn isn't useless and Trump isn't dangerously incompetent because the media don't like them. Corbyn isn't clueless about what it is he's arguing against (in the sense of Tory social care plans) because the Daily Mail are mean to him. Trump isn't covering up Russian collusion because SNL portrayals of him are unflattering.

Just because the media says the Emperor has a small dick doesn't mean he's actually wearing clothes.
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I'm not convinced that you're really holding other candidates to the same level of scrutiny... I mean, you deem Corbyn clueless because you feel he misrepresented Tory plans on social care. What are your thoughts on Theresa May's non-campaign so far? Despite being asked, you've also ignored questions about what you think of Labour's manifesto...

It's like you're determined to reaffirm you're view of Corbyn over and above any objective or reasoned political thought.

I get you don't like the leader... but that aside, can you really objectively say that their campaign or manifesto are worse than what the Conservatives are offering so far? It would just be nice if both parties were held up to the same level of scrutiny. If you ever wonder why they aren't... look in the mirror.
 
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Oscie said:
The media don't like Corbyn, same as the US media don't like Trump. But Corbyn isn't useless and Trump isn't dangerously incompetent because the media don't like them. Corbyn isn't clueless about what it is he's arguing against (in the sense of Tory social care plans) because the Daily Mail are mean to him. Trump isn't covering up Russian collusion because SNL portrayals of him are unflattering.

Just because the media says the Emperor has a small dick doesn't mean he's actually wearing clothes.

I'm sorry a flag ship policy announced by the Tories on social care announced 3 weeks before the election. Corbyn's position two days after the policy was announced? He still didn't know what it was.

"But the media....!!!" is the new "But her emails.....!!!"

Accept it. It's reality.
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Well no, there is a staunch difference when the media choose to not scrutinise Tory lies while directing an unprecedented amount of vitriol towards Corbyn. Hardly surprisingly too when you consider the cozy dynamic between the Tory party and the likes of Murdoch.

And comparing it to the Trump situation at the States is lazy at best. We're comparing a principled and genuine politician to a crook.

It would be nice to hear what you don't like about the Labour manifesto though.
 
This ''£ 100,000 Cap'' on social care - Corbyn didn't really say that surely? - has really livened up the Daily Mail readership I can tell you that. They do not like it, :).

I don't like the term ''red tory'' at all - it's apparently (looks like to me) their latest policy studies wheeze to think that they themselves are like that & believe that they have the wealth so as to act for the greater good of all. Clear conscience bollocks - theoretical justification for being cnuts is what I reckon.

But Mrs May has talked about / threatened a couple of things that are definitely indicative of some leftward drift - which I suppose is to be applauded (if it happens). I prefer her to the axis of smarm of Cameron / Osborne. Maybe I'm being brainwashed and / or they'll be an anti-May coup in the Tory Party as soon as it is convenient.

The argument about the Left having presentation problems & I think policy formulation problems is very valid I think - Tony Blair got around it though so not impossible is it? :lol:

You can't dismiss media influence though & this is them trying to be fair, allegedly.

What if Corbyn had of wandered about ranting on about ''strong & stable'' they'd be slaughtering him - what does it mean? you're not actually saying anything are you? how many horses have you got? etc etc. The fragrant Theresa is allowed to answer any question by saying that whatever she says / does will be in the national interest & we quickly move on to what a great negotiator she is.

Political journalism though innit, firmly part of ''the Establishment'' operating in their own world, they don't need Corbyn or people who are like Corbyn, who have beliefs that run openly against the status quo with little or no subtlety or care in the presentation which they don't care about because they feel they are morally correct.
 


As Somerset Webb normally strikes me as a pretty sensible person, i found this to be worth a read. And fortunately, the FT's paywall didn't get in the way.

The Winter Fuel Payment situation is making more frequent appearances in conversations in my experience. Now if Theresa May were the sort of hug a husky (should the dog not run off), she'd have offered them improved insulation/solar in exchange.




She has been looking into thematter for six months. but still can't give the public a straight answer.


Sweet Square said:
I see we are in Trump territory.
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You're going to have to explain that one to me i'm afraid.
 
ZupZup said:
I'm not convinced that you're really holding other candidates to the same level of scrutiny... I mean, you deem Corbyn clueless because you feel he misrepresented Tory plans on social care. What are your thoughts on Theresa May's non-campaign so far? Despite being asked, you've also ignored questions about what you think of Labour's manifesto...

It's like your determined to reaffirm your view of Corbyn over and above any objective or reasoned political thought.

I get you don't like the leader... but that aside, can you really objectively say that their campaign or manifesto are worse than what the Conservatives are offering so far? It would just be nice if both parties were held up to the same level of scrutiny. If you ever wonder why they aren't... look in the mirror.
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I'd say the Tories are having a pretty terrible campaign on the surface of it, May is deeply uninspiring and running more against her opponent than on her programme, there's no optimism about it and for the most part they're hiding away. What I'm less sure is what's going on below the surface, how they're interacting with swing voters in marginals (and beyond) and how the policies are going down there. HuffPo put out a focus group today among solid Labour voters and it didn't make overly pretty reading for Labour.

If this care policy can cut through then they have a chance of preventing the Tory majority getting too large. But that's the last real hope, barring any big campaign gaffes.
 
Once we get Brexit out of the way, voters and politicians alike will have more room for manoeuvres. The Farron problem notwithstanding, the Lib Dems position on a second referendum makes things more difficulty for them in orange/blue contests.

You've also got the upcoming boundary changes, which could leave some otherwise capable MPs high and dry. Not a bad pretext for a centrist party IMO, one without an EU focus, pro or anti.
 
Nick 0208 Ldn said:
And fortunately, the FT's paywall didn't get in the way.
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Not that I'd ever encourage such blatant avoidance of their just and rightful subscription charges, but rumour is that if you say copied the title of the article, put it into google and then opened the result in a new tab, it might avoid almost any websites paywall. Not that you should ever do that of course.
 
Oscie said:
The media don't like Corbyn, same as the US media don't like Trump. But Corbyn isn't useless and Trump isn't dangerously incompetent because the media don't like them. Corbyn isn't clueless about what it is he's arguing against (in the sense of Tory social care plans) because the Daily Mail are mean to him. Trump isn't covering up Russian collusion because SNL portrayals of him are unflattering.

Just because the media says the Emperor has a small dick doesn't mean he's actually wearing clothes.

I'm sorry a flag ship policy announced by the Tories on social care announced 3 weeks before the election. Corbyn's position two days after the policy was announced? He still didn't know what it was.

"But the media....!!!" is the new "But her emails.....!!!"

Accept it. It's reality.
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Trump got big crowds and won against the odds. That's about it as far as similarities with Corbyn go. Sanders and Corbyn have much more in common.

Where did this idea that May is "strong and stable" come from? Thin air. What is there in May's record to suggest she is strong or stable?

Where are the enquiries in mainstream media about what was agreed in May's meetings with Murdoch and Dacre? Is there anyone in mainstream media drawing attention to the pledge in the Tory manifesto to stop Leveson 2 and Section 40? Is the analysis of media bias done by Loughborough University getting the prominance it deserves? Strange that it seems to have excluded BBC coverage, afaik. This isn't Herr Twitler bleating about bias, it's academics.

Corbyn's speeches do sway people to vote for him, as was proven when he came from nowhere to win the first leadership election by a wide margin, stimulate hundreds of thousands to join the party and go on to increase his vote share in the 2nd leadership contest. He did that while he was receiving bad press, by the way. For me, it's easy to see why - he wants a fairer society. Simple. The manifesto lays out how Labour can begin the task of bringing that ideal into reality.
 
Nick 0208 Ldn said:
Once we get Brexit out of the way, voters and politicians alike will have more room for manoeuvres. The Farron problem notwithstanding, the Lib Dems position on a second referendum makes things more difficulty for them in orange/blue contests.

You've also got the upcoming boundary changes, which could leave some otherwise capable MPs high and dry. Not a bad pretext for a centrist party IMO, one without an EU focus, pro or anti.
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42% of Tory party voters were Remain. Much as you'd like half the country to just be left with no-one representing their wishes on the biggest political issue of our generation, you and your Leave friends will have to be disappointed I'm afraid. Remain voters are going absolutely nowhere, and this is a fight that is not going to finish any time soon.
 
Nick 0208 Ldn said:
You're going to have to explain that one to me i'm afraid.
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Sorry didn't mean it as a dig towards to you, more that we are now in a situation where a political party announces a terrifying policy and the reaction from its supporters(Or least people who are on same political spectrum) is not of horror but of hope that policy will get killed because of party in fighting.
 
I work on zero hours contracts. Some of the very hard-working people I work with and meet won't vote Labour because they think it's the party of work-shy layabouts. They are dead set against people that have social housing and in receipt of benefits due to pumping out kids that will be just like them. Meanwhile, they feel they are doing the right thing, working ever harder to live outside the benefit system. So, they vote for the Tories - because they're fecking stupid, hard-working serfs.
 
Nick 0208 Ldn said:


As Somerset Webb normally strikes me as a pretty sensible person, i found this to be worth a read. And fortunately, the FT's paywall didn't get in the way.

The Winter Fuel Payment situation is making more frequent appearances in conversations in my experience. Now if Theresa May were the sort of hug a husky (should the dog not run off), she'd have offered them improved insulation/solar in exchange.


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Not sure her analogy holds up tbh- it's more of a £100k tax-free allowance on the cost of social care.

I thought a lot of the left would like the policy on one level tbh- older, wealthier people losing their homes and all that unearned houe price inflation- one of the arguments trotted out for IHT being acceptable.
 
DenisIrwin said:
I work on zero hours contracts. Some of the very hard-working people I work with and meet won't vote Labour because they think it's the party of work-shy layabouts. They are dead set against people that have social housing and in receipt of benefits due to pumping out kids that will be just like them. Meanwhile, they feel they are doing the right thing, working ever harder to live outside the benefit system. So, they vote for the Tories - because they're fecking stupid, hard-working serfs.
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They probably feel that they'll pay more tax under Labour tbh.
 
DenisIrwin said:
Well, they ARE the party of the "WORKING CLASS" - not the scroungers. With investment in infrastrucure there will be work.
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Are you saying that Labour isn't the party for people on benefits?
 
Kentonio said:
42% of Tory party voters were Remain. Much as you'd like half the country to just be left with no-one representing their wishes on the biggest political issue of our generation, you and your Leave friends will have to be disappointed I'm afraid. Remain voters are going absolutely nowhere, and this is a fight that is not going to finish any time soon.
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That's not the point i was making. Rather, that come 2021/22 the imperatives of voters will be different. People won't feel so inhibited with their choices, thanks to a likely combination of negotiations being over and new leadership among the opposition parties. For example, i might feel more comfortable voting Lib Dem at that point (provided that their local candidate does still wish to build schools on park land).


Sweet Square said:
Sorry didn't mean it as a dig towards to you, more that we are now in a situation where a political party announces a terrifying policy and the reaction from its supporters(Or least people who are on same political spectrum) is not of horror but of hope that policy will get killed because of party in fighting.
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I guess i take some comfort from past events. With both ID Cards and pre-charge detention, a sufficient number of MPs stood in the way of those measures. Theresa May could push through further security focused elements, yes i think that is possible. However many of the other restrictions being alluded to, go beyond what i believe parliament will accept. Maybe i end up looking naive, we shall see.

Also worth bearing in mind that the manifesto has drawn criticism from her own side; large majority or no (i think the result be closer than originally supposed), there will be the potential for revolt.
 
DenisIrwin said:
Well, they ARE the party of the "WORKING CLASS" - not the scroungers. With investment in infrastrucure there will be work.
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Not a lot of help to those of us who are ill scroungers and are facing cuts to our housing benefit.
 
Ubik said:
Are you saying that Labour isn't the party for people on benefits?
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I know for a fact there are work-shy layabouts that abuse the system. They are shits, in my opinion. For every one of them there are a hundred struggling against a Tory tide.
 
DiseaseOfTheAge said:
Not a lot of help to those of us who are ill scroungers and are facing cuts to our housing benefit.
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...and Universal Credit. As a safety net, it's not fit for purpose. I never want to use the benefit system. I have self-respect. When I've had to though, I feel I have every right to expect the safety net to be there for me. I have paid more than my fair share of tax and NI over the years - in fact, if I had all my P60s for the past 5 years, I would be able to claim back a fair chunk of cash (but I lost all my paperwork). I didn't claim until I had no choice. Then, when I was really struggling - and I mean really struggling - I had to wait 6 weeks for 4 weeks' UC. That set the pattern. That 4 weeks UC was supposed to cover the 6 weeks I had been waiting as well as get me through the next calendar month. Of course, it didn't. So, I struggled. I found some work and borrowed from friends and family. The money I had earnt reduced the amount of UC I got the next month... and so it goes. Foodbanks were no use. What use is cans of food when you are street homeless and don't have a fridge, cooker, plates, knife, fork or spoon? It goes on. The council housed me. Yahoo! But still, you are always behind. Everything you earn reduces the amount of UC you get. You struggle to earn enough to get by and find you can't keep up with the rent. When you do manage to get regular work it all goes on rent arrears. Then, when you're going to sleep at night, you get Edwina fecking Currie on FiveLive saying you're a lazy fecker.
 
Jippy said:
Not actually seen what the tipping points for which party you'd pay more tax under, given your salary.
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I think everyone should be taxed on their earnings. I am under the threshold and shouldn't be paying tax, even though it is sometimes deducted. I also sometimes pay Employer's NI. I really don't understand that - or who gets credited with the contributions. I guess it's the umbrella company. That's another thing. There is a huge industry that has arisen with the growth of zero-hours contracts. Agents and umbrella companies creaming the top off hard working people. If I was paying tax as I feel I should it would improve my self-esteem though.
 
sun_tzu said:
That's the spirit... Let's not engage and educate those who disagree with Corbyn... Let's call them stupid and ignorant (I suppose it makes a change from calling them Tory-lite Blairite scum)..
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They are stupid and ignorant because they should realise that they are the serfs to the Lords and Masters, not among the top 5%.
 
DenisIrwin said:
I think everyone should be taxed on their earnings. I am under the threshold and shouldn't be paying tax, even though it is sometimes deducted. I also sometimes pay Employer's NI. I really don't understand that - or who gets credited with the contributions. I guess it's the umbrella company. That's another thing. There is a huge industry that has arisen with the growth of zero-hours contracts. Agents and umbrella companies creaming the top off hard working people. If I was paying tax as I feel I should it would improve my self-esteem though.
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I was more looking for a scale, say at 35k, you're better off under the Tories and under that you'll pay less under Labour tbh...Would be interesting to see the figure (am not thinking about those earning 100k+)
 
Jippy said:
I was more looking for a scale, say at 35k, you're better off under the Tories and under that you'll pay less under Labour tbh...Would be interesting to see the figure (am not thinking about those earning 100k+)
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You're never better off under the Tories unless you have a lot of shares in privatised industries, own a portfolio of private rent houses, donate to the party for honours, own a mainstream media conglomerate, or are otherwise a greedy fecker.
 
Dobba said:
As long as 'moderates' like Reeves are unfortunately still in the party.
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Pretty amazing influence she's got to be setting benefits policy from the backbenches.
 
DenisIrwin said:
You're never better off under the Tories unless you have a lot of shares in privatised industries, own a portfolio of private rent houses, donate to the party for honours, own a mainstream media conglomerate, or are otherwise a greedy fecker.
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:lol:I'm hardly a greedy fecker for not particularly wanting to pay more income tax. My wife and I pay over 40k a year in income tax, we mainly use private healthcare and have no kids, so we certainly pay our share already.
 
Jippy said:
:lol:I'm hardly a greedy fecker for not particularly wanting to pay more income tax. My wife and I pay over 40k a year in income tax, we mainly use private healthcare and have no kids, so we certainly pay our share already.
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The future, looking at the voting intention of younger voters, is looking bright. Look after yourself mate, and don't go getting dementia under a Tory government.
 
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