Gunmen attack Mumbai in at least seven places

Who else tells us it's the word of God?

Some professor or scientist?

Can anyone prove it's negation?

Well, like all other worthwhile knowledge, a theory must make a testable prediction which can then be falsified. Nothing can ever be proved true, only proved false.

So does the statement "book X is the inerrant word of god" make a testable prediction? Yes, presumably it makes the prediction that there must be no internal contradiction in the text, and it must accurately reflect all the evidence we see in the world. Of course this doesn't show a book is the direct word of god, for man could of course make a book which is perfectly factually true.

So does the Qur'an pass the non-contradictory and 'fit the evidence' test? You realise one, just one, contradiction would falsify the statement that it is the perfect word of god...
 
That is a very unfortunate position for Muslims. What you seem to be saying, is that Muslims will never find a way to eliminate the radicalism of their faith.

Sad, really...

:confused:

Quran is not the source of radicalism.
 
Well, like all other worthwhile knowledge, a theory must make a testable prediction which can then be falsified. Nothing can ever be proved true, only proved false.

So does the statement "book X is the inerrant word of god" make a testable prediction? Yes, presumably it makes the prediction that there must be no internal contradiction in the text, and it must accurately reflect all the evidence we see in the world. Of course this doesn't show a book is the direct word of god, for man could of course make a book which is perfectly factually true.

So does the Qur'an pass the non-contradictory and 'fit the evidence' test? You realise one, just one, contradiction would falsify the statement that it is the perfect word of god...

http://www.islamonline.net/servlet/...kAboutIslamE/AskAboutIslamE&cid=1123996016306
 
:confused:

Quran is not the source of radicalism.


It can be a source of radicalism, just as verses in the Holy Bible can be used to motivate radicalism. Come'on!!! Let's call a spade a spade.


I might be wrong, but I think the only religion that doesn't include doctrine of negative reaction towards opposing factions are the Bhudists.
 
All of the six sides or aspects of the Quran are luminous and demonstrate its truth. From below, it is supported upon the pillars of proofs and evidences (rational, scientific, historical, and those pertaining to conscience and sound judgment, and so on); above it, are gleams of the seal of miraculousness: it aims at happiness in both worlds; and behind it are, another point of support, the truths of the Divine Revelation. To its right is the unanimous confirmation of guided reasons based on proofs; and to its left are the intellectual and spiritual contentment of those with sound heart and conscience, and their sincere attachment and submission to it. All these together bear witness that the Quran is an absolutely formidable, extraordinary and unconquerable stronghold which the hand of heaven established on the earth, and set their seal of admission of it as a faultless, true Word of God. The Administrator of the universe, Who always acts in a way to manifest unity, protect virtuousness and goodness, and extirpate falsehood and slander, has given the Quran the most acceptable, high and dominant rank of respect and success, and thereby confirmed its truth.

Also, the person who is the interpreter of the Quran, upon him be peace and blessings, believed in it and respected it more than anything and anybody else. He went into a sleep-like state during the revelation of its verses and confirmed and preached all of its decrees and commandments with utmost conviction and without exhibiting any deception and error to eyes wide open always to catch him, and without anything to shake him. Despite being unlettered, having founded on the Quran, he gave, without hesitation, news and information about the past and future and about the facts of creation and operation of the universe. Other sayings of his do not resemble the Quran and are inferior to it in certain respects. All this together proves that the Quran is the true, heavenly and blessed Word of that person’s Merciful Creator.

The fifth of mankind or even the majority of them in certain cases have always had an ecstatic and religious devotion to the Quran and listened to it lovingly and in adoration of truth, and as is testified to by numerous observations, signs, and events, as moths fly round a light, angels, believing jinn and other spirit beings gather together around it during its recitation. This also confirms that the Quran is accepted by almost all the beings in the universe and is of the highest rank.

Also, all the groups of mankind with different levels of understanding and learning, from the commonest to the most intelligent and learned, derive their share from the teaching of the Quran, and all the greatest scholars in Islamic sciences such as jurisprudence, theology, and religious methodology, have found in the Quran the answers to all of their questions and based their conclusions upon it. This is another evidence that the Quran is the source of truths, the mine of all true knowledge.

Furthermore, although among the unbelieving Arab literary men those who have been the most advanced in literature, have always felt much need to dispute with the Quran, they have been unable to do that even in eloquence, which is only one of the seven major aspects of the Quran’s miraculousness, and have not dared to produce the like of even one of its suras. The others, geniuses of learning and eloquence, who by disputing with it in eloquence have sought fame, have been compelled to refrain from doing so. This clearly shows that the Quran is a miracle, beyond the capacity of mankind.

Indeed, in order to judge the value, sublimity, and eloquence of a word it is asked: ‘Who has spoken it? To whom has it been spoken? Why has it been spoken?’ When considered from the perspective of these questions, again the Quran has no equal. For the Quran is the Word of the Lord of all beings and the Speech of the Creator of the whole of the universe which bears no signs to suggest that it is a book of imitation, one fabricated by someone and then falsely attributed to God. God revealed the Quran to the one whom He chose as the representative of all the creatures, one who is His most famous and renowned addressee, and the extent and strength of whose faith embraced the comprehensive religion of Islam and caused its owner to rise to the rank of the distance of two bows’ length, and being honored with direct conversation with the Eternally Besought-of-All, after which he turned back to the world to convey to people the principles of happiness in both worlds. The Quran explains the principles of happiness in both worlds and the results of, and the Divine purpose in, the creation of the universe, and expounds the Prophet’s most comprehensive faith, which sustains all the truths of Islam: it shows and describes the huge universe like a map or a clock or a house and teaches about the Artist Who made it. Certainly it is impossible to produce a like of it or to match the degree of its eloquence.

In addition, numerous collections of books on the interpretation of the Quran, some of which cover as many as forty or even seventy volumes-written by meticulous scholars of the highest intelligence and learning-expound with proofs countless virtues of the Quran and its subtleties and mysteries, and disclose and affirm its numerous predictions. Among them, the one hundred and thirty treatises of the Risale-i Nur explain each virtue and subtlety of the Quran, such as its allusions to the scientific and technical wonders of modern civilization like trains and aircrafts and electricity, and its indirect references to future victories of Muslims and the history of the Companions after the Prophet, and the meaningful and mysterious design of its letters. All this means setting a seal on the fact that the Quran is a miracle with no equals and the Word of the Knower of the Unseen, which is the tongue of the world of the Unseen in this visible world of corporeality.

It is because of such virtues of the Quran that its magnificent spiritual dominion and its majestic sacred rule has been continuing for centuries to illuminate the earth and the ages, time and space, and more and more people have been embracing it with perfect respect. It is because of the same virtues, that each letter of the Quran yields at least the merits, ten rewards, and ten fruits pertaining to the eternal world, and that the letters of certain verses and suras, each give hundreds or even thousands of merits, and when recited on certain blessed occasions, the light and merits of each of its letters multiply by tens or hundreds. The world-traveler came to understand this and said to himself: ‘Based on the consensus of its lights and mysteries, and the concord of its fruits and results, this Quran, miraculous in every respect, proves and testifies to the existence, unity, attributes, and Names of a single Necessarily Existent One in such a manner that the testimonies of innumerable believers have their sources from that testimony.’

http://www.thewaytotruth.org/theholyquran/wordofgod.html
 

From that link Sults:

To prove that the Qur’an is the Word of Allah, you do not have to indulge into futile discussions or philosophical dialect. You have at your disposal a “living material evidence,” the Qur’an itself. Starting with the null hypothesis, i.e., assuming that the Qur’an is not the word of God, one should ask himself: could a human being in the seventh century write such a book? Or does there exist—up till today—any book that is claimed to match the Qur’an?

This is just plain nonsensical thinking.

Suppose there is one bit of the Qur'an which says something so profound or enlightened that everyone agrees it has to have a divine origin...this does not necessitate that the rest of the book is of divine origin. That would be like saying 'Ronaldo is world class, therefore all Man Utd players are world class'. It's just a logical fallacy, plain and simple.

Any internal contradiction would show that the book is not the inerrant word of god, at least not all of it, because presumably god is not capable of making mistakes.
 
It can be a source of radicalism, just as verses in the Holy Bible can be used to motivate radicalism. Come'on!!! Let's call a spade a spade.


I might be wrong, but I think the only religion that doesn't include doctrine of negative reaction towards opposing factions are the Bhudists.

Killer v@mpire Buddh@ monks?
 
Every letter, word in the Quran is believed by Muslims to be directly from God. The very foundation of Islam would become non existent if any part of the Quran changed.

The problem with this kind of verbal inspiration is the implication that when the Quran calls non-Muslims animals, or when it describes Jews as pigs and apes, you put yourself into a position where you cannot say that the religious man Mohamed was inspired by God, however he wrote his thoughts down using his own words (and that calling non-Muslims pigs and apes is just using 'the language of that time' or that 'this has to be viewed in the context of that culture' etc.!) If Allah is the infallible and unchangeable being is that really the way how he refers to those who reject him?
 
It can be a source of radicalism, just as verses in the Holy Bible can be used to motivate radicalism. Come'on!!! Let's call a spade a spade.


I might be wrong, but I think the only religion that doesn't include doctrine of negative reaction towards opposing factions are the Bhudists.

Of course it can be a source of radicalism. As can any other ism.

We can't go round banning every thought, or philosophy because there is a chance it could radicalise the naive.
 
The problem with this kind of verbal inspiration is the implication that when the Quran calls non-Muslims animals, or when it describes Jews as pigs and apes, you put yourself into a position where you cannot say that the religious man Mohamed was inspired by God, however he wrote his thoughts down using his own words (and that calling non-Muslims pigs and apes is just using 'the language of that time' or that 'this has to be viewed in the context of that culture' etc.!) If Allah is the infallible and unchangeable being is that really the way how he refers to those who reject him?

Where the hell do you get these quotes from?

Sad, and pathetic really. It's the first time I have read such a ridiculous statement.

The Qur'an does not say in any place that all Jews are apes and pigs.
 
Where the hell do you get these quotes from?

Sad, and pathetic really. It's the first time I have read such a rediculous statement.

The Qur'an does not say in any place that all Jews are apes and pigs.

It was more a question than a statement really..

In 62:5 it compares the behavior of the Jews who did not fulfill the Mosaic law to that of donkeys (Im still looking for the one with the apes).

My question is wouldn't it be much easier to say that these were the words of the author who actually wrote the Quran and which reflect his own opinion on that matter etc. rather than saying Allah said those words exactly the way they are? You know what I mean?
 
Killer v@mpire Buddh@ monks?

...well, apart from the Killer v@mpire Buddh@ monks, of course. Goes without saying...

________________________________________

Sultan,

You keep jumping on the position of 'No Way ~ Never Going to Happen ~ It's Unthinkable...'


I'm not saying 'Ban' anything; I am suggesting that it would be in humanity's best interest if all religions came together and developed a peace coalition that aimed at editting 'All' religious verses that have led to violence.

Simple... :cool:

ps. Hasn't 2000+ years been long enough with these ideas that continue to clash?
 
...well, apart from the Killer v@mpire Buddh@ monks, of course. Goes without saying...

________________________________________

Sultan,

You keep jumping on the position of 'No Way ~ Never Going to Happen ~ It's Unthinkable...'


I'm not saying 'Ban' anything; I am suggesting that it would be in humanity's best interest if all religions came together and developed a peace coalition that aimed at editting 'All' religious verses that have led to violence.

Simple... :cool:

ps. Hasn't 2000+ years been long enough with these ideas that continue to clash?

No offence Bob, I'm just being a realist.
 
The problem with this kind of verbal inspiration is the implication that when the Quran calls non-Muslims animals, or when it describes Jews as pigs and apes, you put yourself into a position where you cannot say that the religious man Mohamed was inspired by God, however he wrote his thoughts down using his own words (and that calling non-Muslims pigs and apes is just using 'the language of that time' or that 'this has to be viewed in the context of that culture' etc.!) If Allah is the infallible and unchangeable being is that really the way how he refers to those who reject him?

In other words God, or Allah, is racist.

If only people would accept that religious documents were created from the word of men not God(s).
 
You don't need specific text to turn heads or make a young lad angry and want to do this sort of thing. Just show him a few pictures and stories of the things happening to his brothers elsewhere in the world.*

Many of you would think religion as being illogical, that's fair, then why do you think they are going to sit there and study the text in the same logical ways you have been looking at it? Surely if they used any decent part of their brain they wouldn't commit such acts.

*Before I get lynched, I'm not saying this is a valid reason or anything of the like.
 
It was more a question than a statement really..

In 62:5 it compares the behavior of the Jews who did not fulfill the Mosaic law to that of donkeys (Im still looking for the one with the apes).

My question is wouldn't it be much easier to say that these were the words of the author who actually wrote the Quran and which reflect his own opinion on that matter etc. rather than saying Allah said those words exactly the way they are? You know what I mean?

http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=397500503034113739

Can't place it exactly, but this shows the 'apes and pigs' line, and the explanation that it derives from a Koranic mistranslation is at 10:00.

Check out 05:12 - 08:48 for a particularly crazy woman's views.

The documentary itself is about Islamic (and primarily Muslim Arab) anti-semitism, and the conclusions are quite interesting.

Namely that Islamic anti-semitism is different from Christian and European anti-semitism (even though it uses the same language), and (in part at least) does stem from the victories of Israel over the supposedly superior Arab armies. The Arab leaders of the time used anti-semitism and the notion of a Jewish conspiracy to 'explain' their loss, and have done very little to abate it since, allowing certain religious interpretations to hold sway over their populace.
 
...well, apart from the Killer v@mpire Buddh@ monks, of course. Goes without saying...

________________________________________

Sultan,

You keep jumping on the position of 'No Way ~ Never Going to Happen ~ It's Unthinkable...'


I'm not saying 'Ban' anything; I am suggesting that it would be in humanity's best interest if all religions came together and developed a peace coalition that aimed at editting 'All' religious verses that have led to violence.

Simple... :cool:

ps. Hasn't 2000+ years been long enough with these ideas that continue to clash?

Good idea lets come up with the forums own 10 commandments here are my first two suggestions

1. Thou shall not steal

2.Thou shall not sexual relations with family members and animals

That should get preclude all Scousers from joining
 
http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=397500503034113739

Can't place it exactly, but this shows the 'apes and pigs' line, and the explanation that it derives from a Koranic mistranslation is at 10:00.

Check out 05:12 - 08:48 for a particularly crazy woman's views.

The documentary itself is about Islamic (and primarily Muslim Arab) anti-semitism, and the conclusions are quite interesting.

Namely that Islamic anti-semitism is different from Christian and European anti-semitism (even though it uses the same language), and (in part at least) does stem from the victories of Israel over the supposedly superior Arab armies. The Arab leaders of the time used anti-semitism and the notion of a Jewish conspiracy to 'explain' their loss, and have done very little to abate it since, allowing certain religious interpretations to hold sway over their populace.

just watching the whole thing now...

well.... the worse the situation on the ground the bigger the hatred for the occupying forces, that's quite logical. But the way people revise history is quite astonishing.

As for the pigs and apes, I dont think it was a mistranslation. The difference is that some Muslims use it as a metaphor and some take it to be literal. But this is where the question of inspiration comes back again- if every word in the Quran is said to be from Allah, is it possible that "the pigs and apes" can have both a literal and a metaphorical meaning? Because in the end it depends on human interpretation, but which one is the right one?
 
So does the Qur'an pass the non-contradictory and 'fit the evidence' test? You realise one, just one, contradiction would falsify the statement that it is the perfect word of god...

And this is the crux of our faith. And the crux of why so many people convert to Islam. Whether those people live in uneducated ghettos or are revered mathematicians/scientists.

Edit...if people really want Islam to disappear off the face of this planet then you can put the missiles and cluster bombs away. God has made this one challenge to mankind and if the Qur'an doesn't stand up to it then 1 billion Muslims will cease to believe. Surely this avenue must have been considered?
 
And this is the crux of our faith. And the crux of why so many people convert to Islam. Whether those people live in uneducated ghettos or are revered mathematicians/scientists.

Edit...if people really want Islam to disappear off the face of this planet then you can put the missiles and cluster bombs away. God has made this one challenge to mankind and if the Qur'an doesn't stand up to it then 1 billion Muslims will cease to believe. Surely this avenue must have been considered?

The problem is that currently some radical Muslims are using the Quran to justify the killing of any non-Muslims. Contrary to that there is not one single Christian group which is killing non-Christians by justifying it with the Bible. But Christianity has come a long way in critically examining the scriptures, pointing out the weaknesses in interpretation etc. Maybe Islam has not yet reached that level of progress through introspection?
 
The problem is that currently some radical Muslims are using the Quran to justify the killing of any non-Muslims. Contrary to that there is not one single Christian group which is killing non-Christians by justifying it with the Bible. But Christianity has come a long way in critically examining the scriptures, pointing out the weaknesses in interpretation etc. Maybe Islam has not yet reached that level of progress through introspection?

So challenge God's word. Find one contradiction. Then there will be no banner of Islam for the terrorists to fight under. Is this getting hard to understand?
 
there's a difference between a pope calling on the crusades and some daft mullah brainwashing young muslims for his/there various purposes and hiding behind and justifying it using the Quran whilst taking the said verses completely out of context.
 
So challenge God's word. Find one contradiction. Then there will be no banner of Islam for the terrorists to fight under. Is this getting hard to understand?

Well I dont believe that the Quran is God's word, first of all. As for the contradictions, simply google 'Contradictions in the Quran' and you'll end up with tons of material on that topic. Im not sure I understand what you mean actually, are you saying that if the Quran has not one single contradiction it must be from God? What if there are other literary works that don't contradict, does the same rule apply?
 
there's a difference between a pope calling on the crusades and some daft mullah brainwashing young muslims for his/there various purposes and hiding behind and justifying it using the Quran whilst taking the said verses completely out of context.

Vida I'm talking about the present situation in the 21st century.
 
God should come down to earth and lay down the law for himself. Id like to see the reaction of atheists if that actually happens.
 
God should come down to earth and lay down the law for himself. Id like to see the reaction of atheists if that actually happens.

He probably would treat them far better than those who try to justify killing in his name
 
Well I dont believe that the Quran is God's word, first of all. As for the contradictions, simply google 'Contradictions in the Quran' and you'll end up with tons of material on that topic. Im not sure I understand what you mean actually, are you saying that if the Quran has not one single contradiction it must be from God? What if there are other literary works that don't contradict, does the same rule apply?

Its a well documented fact that God has stated in the Qur'an that only His Book is 100% contradiction free. Scholars have challenged God at this over the last few centuries, only to be rebuked by similarly learned Islamic scholars.

Googling 'Qur'anic Contradictions' will only lead you to non-scholar sites or personal blogs. I could also google 'Am I dying of something serious?' and probably get seriously persuasive answers. But only by visiting my doctor will I be certain. There hasn't been a serious scholar-based challenge on Qur'anic authenticity probably this millenium. I think its time we had one since the prize is huge - you win, we become atheists.

Surely in this scientific age this is overdue? Imagine, no more Islam and no more Islamic terrorists. What more motivation does one need?
 
God should come down to earth and lay down the law for himself. Id like to see the reaction of atheists if that actually happens.

and those who were in the wrong religion would be a little nervous as well I imagine.

As for this atheist.


bblbllblblblllblbblblblblblblblblblblblbblbbbbbllblb.

I HAVE SEEEN THE LIGHT I HAVE SEEN THE LIGHT.Thankyou (insert diety/prophet of the newly arrived god here).


A quick conversion is as good a back up plan as any.
 
Any news on the possible "British citizens of Pakistani origin" yet?


Some guy has a blog where he was updating continuously: http://arunshanbhag.com/

DSC_0116-Aps.jpg
 
There are stories circulating of a plot to get rid of Terrorism Chief Hemant Karkare and his comrades who had arrested some very prominent figures of a right wing Hindu party. He was the first victim, and apparently his widow has refused any compensation money from Adwani/Modi.

Are these just conspiracy theories?
 
There are stories circulating of a plot to get rid of Terrorism Chief Hemant Karkare and his comrades who had arrested some very prominent figures of a right wing Hindu party. He was the first victim, and apparently his widow has refused any compensation money from Adwani/Modi.

Are these just conspiracy theories?

You think they pushed him in the front row to catch a bullet? Seemed to have been a nice guy from what they're reporting so far.
 
Any news on the possible "British citizens of Pakistani origin" yet?


Some guy has a blog where he was updating continuously: http://arunshanbhag.com/

DSC_0116-Aps.jpg

Just reading through that dude's blog. What does he mean by this??

I befriended a couple of Police Officers who escorted me closer; Any closer they would have drafted me into the Services! Amazing how many doors a little bit of heavily accented Marathi can open! Ambulances still waiting outside! I had to leave!
 
Just reading through that dude's blog. What does he mean by this??

His voice? I think he is hinting at how shockingly easy it is to persuade a few officers there in getting close to the action ... after all he is a random person.
 
He probably would treat them far better than those who try to justify killing in his name

Very good point if there is a God I would hope he would judge people for their actions rather than which religion they followed however if he judged them for which football team they followed that would be another matter, hope he doesn't have anything against a team which has the devil on its badge :nervous:

From what I've read Bin Laden was a Gooner