More on a general level throughout the forum. This is the same Arsenal that won nothing last season...
Harry Kane | Bayern Munich player
- Thread starter LawCharltonBest
- Start date
-
In the latest episode of the United Hour Podcast, Nik (@Rood) is joined by CEO Duncan Drasdo and Financial Director Andy Green from the Manchester United Supporters Trust for a special episode on all things behind the scenes at Old Trafford including a brief history of MUST and their aims today, views on INEOS and Sir Jim Ratcliffe so far, and the Old Trafford regeneration.
More on a general level throughout the forum. This is the same Arsenal that won nothing last season...
No. You've got this the wrong way round.... this move has been heavily driven by the ultra "must win to prove yourself" era we are living. Teams like Spurs are simply being phased out of even having a true relative chance of winning even cups... because all the players just flood to same few teams just get hands on trophies. It's just another step towards the ESL. The things sadly inevitable, and fans claiming Kane needs to do this or go to someone massive to just win something are kind of oblivious to the fact they are part of the reason it is inevitable.
Kane's spearheaded England and Spurs to levels they had no right to be at, given the talent and structure around him.... outside of the superb stadium, they are just a tier below the mega elite.
He also does deserve to play for a massive club like Bayern though. Shorter domestic season, hopefully smashes it up, and ends up back in England.
They went toe to toe with the UCL winner. I'd say all things considered they definitely looked like a top 5 team last season. City was heads and shoulders above everyone else in the UCL and Arsenal wasn't that much worse than them in the EPL.
The poster didn't suggest that they were a top 5 team, he suggested that they were a top 2 team. And we are talking about a team that miserably failed in all cups last season.
The problem with that mentality is that you end up with top players sitting on benches at a few clubs picking up piss easy trophies. Kane winning something at Spurs would have been a significantly greater achievement in terms of challenge than picking up a couple of titles at Bayern. My guess is he spends 2-3 years in Germany, gets 4-5 trophies to stop people bitching about him not winning anything (as if it is a failing in the super-team era) and then comes back to have a crack at the scoring record.
To be fair, Brentford beat them twice last season. Are they an elite team now?
Weird seeing him at another club.
They clearly prioritized the league. I don't think it is silly to have Arsenal as one of the favorites for the UCL based on their league performance last season.
I think you'll have a hard time finding a team that hasn't lost once or twice against worse opposition last season.
And they got slapped hard, twice. Going toe-to-toe is only impressive if you actually hold your own.
Now, you are just making up points that weren't made by the OP nor contested by myself.
Great league performances mainly consist of grinding out wins against lesser teams consistently. Great CL campaigns consist of edging out equal or stronger teams.
So doing well in the league doesn't necessarily make you a favorite in the cups.
So doing well in the league doesn't necessarily make you a favorite in the cups.
True. But that's not even the point that was made, the point was that Arsenal are an elite team while Bayern and bunch of teams such as Real Madrid are far from elite.
I think we all know those comments were made out of desperation.
I think this is a control illusion. Title races are often decided by games against top opposition, especially in a league in which arguably 30% of the teams are top opposition.
So it's not surprising that cup winners more often than not are good in the league as well. It's just that chance plays a bigger role in cup competitions than in leagues. Which means they are (relatively speaking) harder to win for the best teams and easier to win for those which aren't elite.
Helping a team win their 11th league title in a row is not exactly a difficult achievement.
Bit defensive are we ? And who is ridiculing him, internet fans? The media brings it up from time to time because he plays for Spurs. Everyone can win trophies if they play for the right team, it's not that big of a deal. Records are unique and literally writing your name in the history books.
Just off the top of my head:
- Real Madrid seemingly found it much easier to win the CL than La Liga
- Eintracht Frankfurt, too, had massive cup success - relatively speaking, while falling short in the league in comparison
- Napoli bulldozed Serie A last season, while trading wins against the other Italian top teams and were eliminated early in the cup and in the CL, too, by a team they left far behind them in Serie A.
- Klopp regularly produced great cup runs while having mediocre league campaigns.
- Pep for quite some time underperformed in the CL while bulldozing Bundesliga and the Premier League.
Most of those examples can be explained by chance. Even if you are so good that you win every game with a probability of 80%, in a cup that starts with a last 16 rounds and one off matches, this puts you at a probability of just 41% of winning the competition. I'm not denying that there are teams who have "cup mentality" or however you want to call it but by far the most decisive factor in both cups and leagues is quality. IMO people read far too much into cup results. One day of bad luck and you're out of the competition. And that day will occur rather sooner than later.
I also don't buy into this "there are teams good at grinding out results against weaker opponent and then there are teams good at winning against similarly good opponents". Of course this is principally a thing but I believe this effect is much smaller than people assume. You'll probably find no coach with as many wins against top opposition as Guardiola and he's probably the prototype of a "beating weaker teams reliably" manager. I mean, the very fact that people use his UCL record as a stick to beat him with is the best evidence of this as no manager has been as successful in the UCL as Guardiola since he's broken through. Sure, his UCL record isn't as good as his league record relatively speaking but again, this can be explained by chance. It's a control illusion.
Records are only a part, the greatest players always achieved team succes also.
Ronaldo could have scored another 500 goals, without UCL wins that propulsed him to individual Balon D'ors he would have been completely in Messi's shadow.
Was Lewandowski a lesser player when he won all these Bundesliga titles or now La Liga? Everyone was saying he was one of the best strikers for a decade, but Kane was a 'loser' compared to him or Suarez. Winning titles cements your status in any sport.
As for everyone can win trophies in the right teams.. nice joke. Not everyone makes it to the biggest clubs in the world when they are in a period of succes. Even those bench warmers.
How does chance explain cup specialists? If it was all about "quality" and "quality" applied in the same way to cups and leagues the CL winner would probably win their league almost all the time, since luck usually evens itself out over a 34 to 38 game season.
Do you think it's luck that Klopp has made 5 CL/EL finals in 12 years and that his head to head against Guardiola is 12-5-11, despite usually finishing miles behind him in the league and coaching clubs with vastly inferior budgets?
"Cup teams" are essentially just teams that overperform in cups. Of course this can be explained by chance as the favorites may have gone out undeservingly, at times even against the cup team itself. A wise man once said that "mentality" is the little brother of the positional error as people refer to.it when they can't really explain what happened on the pitch. A control illusion.
As for Klopp: Chance alone is not the only factor obviously. Teams can focus on cup competitions and that is especially important when squad depth is an issue. Klopp generally performs excellently in leagues as well and considering that he lost most of the finals you mention this is kind of an inconsequent argument to begin with.
I mean, these days there are so many substantial factors that decide over winning or losing. Qualitative advantages, tactics, scouting, match plans, fitness levels, etc. I understand that there's mental fatigue and maybe a lack of focus at work when playing league games at lesser position so some teams aren't as good at "grinding out results" as you call it, but do you think a team can just magically turn all this completely on its head by really, really wanting it? You named Frankfurt as a cup team and Napoli as a league team, have you seen what Napoli did to Frankfurt in the UCL?
That's a very specific comparison to one of the greatest players in the game. Kane doesn't need to be that, he just needs to be the greatest English striker in football history. Now he will just be another really good player who won trophies. Unless he wins the CL, I don't see him comparing favourably with Suarez either just because he has a gimme bundesliga.
Klopp and Pep are both great allround coaches who are good in every aspect - tactics, motivation, managinbg the team atmosphere etc. Klopp definitely has the edge over Pep when it comes to motivating a team toward one specific match. That is why he is better selling insureance
Last edited:
That much is evident, you found it hard to tell the point in your previous reply, too. Happens when you're blinkered in your posting agenda, and jump to post before you read.
Perhaps I could try again. I stated how, in my opinion, Kane's decisions have left him bereft of all of the achievements typically used by footballers to find meaning in their profession. Trophies, individual honours, legacy at a club, money, etc. He was passively culpable at first through inaction, and now actively with this worst-possible move to a club that doesn't really need him to win what they win. His legacy is that he has no legacy - an elite striker with nothing to show for his skills because he let himself be toyed around to stoke the ego of a businessman. Every choice Harry Kane has made in his career so far has maximized returns for Daniel Levy and minimized the legacy of Kane himself. Which is why I, along with many other posters, am calling him a fool for it.
I would have liked him at United if we had the luxury to buy him, of course, but I'm glad we chose to strengthed the team instead of spunking it all out on a 30-year old striker who is yet to show his mettle in big games. I was of this opinion long before the window opened with this saga:
Your response to this, however, was to cherry-pick the fact that I'm calling the transfer to Bayern a poor personal choice, and retort with a petty sour grapes accusation. Given that I mentioned Chelsea and City as alternative destinations, you think I'm crying sour grapes because Kane dismissed the PL itself, not just United, which is quite amusing and telling. Which brings me back to your blinkered view of interpretating posts as an attack on the legitimacy of the Bundesliga itself and resorting to personal condescension as a defense. Maybe you should ponder over the irony of the fact that in this case, what you're so vehemently defending is the transfer of a prolific striker to your rivals who have been winning the league for the last decade without fail.
But I'm quite certain you'll find it hard to tell what point I'm trying to make here, as well.
how do you remember Alan Shearer, his EPL scoring record or his 1 puny EPL trophy with Blackburn ?
Klopp and Pep are both great allround coaches who are good in every aspect - tactics, motivation, managinbg the team atmosphere etc. Klopp definitely has the edge over Pep when it comes to motivating a team toward one specific match. That is why he is better selling insureance
If one specific match includes a 'final', then he's ahead of Klopp.
Pep has a record of 24 wins from 27 finals across Barcelona, Bayern and City. An 88.889% percentage in finals.
Bayern Munchen, you just got Kaned.
If Bayern lose, we laugh at Kane. If Bayern wins, we laugh at Spurs. Brilliant transfer !
I feel like I've awakened in an alternate reality where Harry Kane hasn't just signed for one of the biggest clubs on the planet ensuring he'll compete for domestic and European titles. I'm not sure why moving out of your comfort zone to compete at higher level has become something to be looked down upon - or even more laughably - pitied. The man's being called "a fool" for taking on a new challenge that could potentially see him achieve the pinnacle of his chosen profession.
Really weird.
Really weird.
2-0
Joins and could still be waiting for first trophy.
Maybe Harry Kane is cursed, to never win a trophy
Dani Olmoed more like.
You can take the boy out of...
They won it on goal difference last year. It might be more difficult than you think.
Regardless, the record means nothing, trophy's matter more and they obviously matter more to Kane.
His first choice was clearly Manchester United. The entire England squad were talking about it in the June camp. He has instead given that power up.
That, admittedly, is partly about something greater. This isn’t about just getting Bundesliga titles, after all.
https://www.independent.co.uk/sport...ayern-munich-tottenham-transfer-b2391666.html
That, admittedly, is partly about something greater. This isn’t about just getting Bundesliga titles, after all.
https://www.independent.co.uk/sport...ayern-munich-tottenham-transfer-b2391666.html
I don't understand the fascination that some have with Shearer's record. The English media are obssessed with it. Greaves has the real record anyway.
.....poor poor Spurs. They are fecked.