Pulled it out of my arse. That's how the PC gone mad crowd sound to me.
Has political correctness actually gone mad?
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Problem is if you only promote competitiveness and confrontationalism (can you even ism that?), you wind up with a world full of competitive and confrontational folk. Surely it's better for everyone if we listen to the hippies and also promote a bit of a love and compassion. You don't have to be submissive or lose your curiosity if your uni has a room with puppies in it. You don't have to be against the puppy room to want people to challenge ideas. They can both exist in the same world.
You don't take your competitiveness home do you? When your partner cooks a meal you're not going to say "move over love, my egg fried rice is way better than yours." In the same vain, when you go to the puppy room you're not suddenly going to let go of your professional or academic ambitions, you're just enjoying the puppies.
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I think I said it early in this thread, political correctness has not gone made, but as is usually the case you will always find people who go mad.
That sound about right?
That sound about right?
Would you not argue that a safe space for people of colour is a support network similarly for LGBT people?
Don't Uni's have individual clubs & societies which include membership and exclusion, all to provide a place for likemindedness and largely has nothing to do with being a more rounded individual?
Wanting a safe space (in my opinion) has nothing to do with being competitive or challenging, they're competing amongst themselves and their peers as part of their coursework and exams. What's wrong with having a sanctuary away from that mindset, particularly if you're far from home.
Again, support groups- fine. Exclusion from other groups based on race, gender or political leaning etc is not something I agree with. It's a bit like the old golf clubs that banned women to be a 'safe space' for rich white men. It's not right.
Uni should be about self improvement, challenging yourself and gaining knowledge. You learn more from nuance and taking a critical approach than you do by surrounding yourself with like-minded people and agreeing all the time. Even if a student wants to waste their learning opportunity, things like no-platforming and coddling wind me up. It just reeks of insecurity to not allow your world view to be challenged.
If you cover your eyes the world is still there, and if you ignore opposing views they will still be there in the real world when you get out there. It is a greater kindness to build a student's resistance to it, while they are still living on their loans etc..
@Silva
Hippies are great, although my ideal world is one where people uphold a moderate form of the non-aggression principle (rather than pacifism). People can disagree and move on with their lives.
We all have different perspectives and learning how others perceive the world is of value, particularly at a key part of a person's development like University. To me, noone should leave Uni thinking they know exactly how the world is- I think we are encouraging a generation to lack nuance and think they have the correct perspective of the world and have learnt they should exclude people who disagree with them. It's not a healthy thing to do.
Because the phrase "kids think they know everything" was only invented to apply to millennials.
Also, at what point does political correctness become overly sensitive and hysterical, but claiming the world's gone mad and a generation are doomed because they say we could do a few things a little differently, become just common sense?
I'm not disagreeing wholesale, there are fair points there, but I also see people in this very thread dismissing ideas like safe spaces or trigger warnings without even really trying to understand them, then saying "the problem with kids these days is they won't accept other people's ideas!" Now obviously this is a hypocrisy on both sides, but you'd think the side banging on about not taking things so seriously, would at least be a tad less, well, serious?
Also, at what point does political correctness become overly sensitive and hysterical, but claiming the world's gone mad and a generation are doomed because they say we could do a few things a little differently, become just common sense?
I'm not disagreeing wholesale, there are fair points there, but I also see people in this very thread dismissing ideas like safe spaces or trigger warnings without even really trying to understand them, then saying "the problem with kids these days is they won't accept other people's ideas!" Now obviously this is a hypocrisy on both sides, but you'd think the side banging on about not taking things so seriously, would at least be a tad less, well, serious?
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I don't think anyone really has an issue with safe spaces per se. There are plenty examples of them that are totally respectable and necessary, like with AA or basically any kind of support network.
But there are also the kind seen in college campuses that I think are totally destructive to intellectual inquiry. When the socially liberal Christina Hoff Sommers visited a college to give a talk to correct a few of the bogus feminist statistics, they needed to put on a safe space for people who weren't even attending the talk, but couldn't handle the idea of someone being given a platform in their college to promote a few factual arguments that didn't align with their worldview. That sort of safe space is ridiculous in a university environment. Then there are people studying for degrees like criminology expecting trigger warnings for lectures that broach certain subjects.. I mean, really? Life has no trigger warnings so in terms of preparing students for the real world this is a pretty negligent idea.
This sort of idiotic thinking is also spawning campaigns for dorms to be segregated by race. For political debates or seminars to take place in white-free zones. Lunacy.
I'm exactly the same. One of the reasons American campus shenanigans peaked my interest was that I have no first hand experience of this sort of thing after 5 years studying in the sciences. In the research groups I've been in every meeting is a series of ideas being thrown out and ruthlessly shot down. No one takes offense. There are no identity politics helping to define which ideas are better than others. If this changed there would be no scientific progression. Ever.
I also can't fathom studying for courses where your final mark is entirely a reflection of the professor's impression of how well you agree with their blinkered world views. Seems to me that a whole swathe of university courses have very rapidly evolved from existing for the pursuit of knowledge, or the broadening of horizons, to just being very expensive indoctrination centers.
But there are also the kind seen in college campuses that I think are totally destructive to intellectual inquiry. When the socially liberal Christina Hoff Sommers visited a college to give a talk to correct a few of the bogus feminist statistics, they needed to put on a safe space for people who weren't even attending the talk, but couldn't handle the idea of someone being given a platform in their college to promote a few factual arguments that didn't align with their worldview. That sort of safe space is ridiculous in a university environment. Then there are people studying for degrees like criminology expecting trigger warnings for lectures that broach certain subjects.. I mean, really? Life has no trigger warnings so in terms of preparing students for the real world this is a pretty negligent idea.
This sort of idiotic thinking is also spawning campaigns for dorms to be segregated by race. For political debates or seminars to take place in white-free zones. Lunacy.
I'm exactly the same. One of the reasons American campus shenanigans peaked my interest was that I have no first hand experience of this sort of thing after 5 years studying in the sciences. In the research groups I've been in every meeting is a series of ideas being thrown out and ruthlessly shot down. No one takes offense. There are no identity politics helping to define which ideas are better than others. If this changed there would be no scientific progression. Ever.
I also can't fathom studying for courses where your final mark is entirely a reflection of the professor's impression of how well you agree with their blinkered world views. Seems to me that a whole swathe of university courses have very rapidly evolved from existing for the pursuit of knowledge, or the broadening of horizons, to just being very expensive indoctrination centers.
See, when someone does provide a concrete example of an absurd safe space it's easy to go "Those stupid students, how will they cope in the real world?" unless, of course, you spend a minute or two looking it up. Which would reveal that hobbers is regurgitating the breitbart version of the story that leaves out a detail or two - namely that the safe space was for sexual assault survivors.
And people wonder why some of us think the whole resistance towards them is based on bullshit.
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But they banned Christmas!!
We often bemoan young peoples apathy in politics and election - but, when young people do become politically engaged, is it really a surprise that they're going to be on the extreme ends of their political ideology? That's the time in your life when you're exposed to ideologies and it's pretty natural that you're going to take a fairly strong interpretation of one ideology or another. Be it 18 year olds who work 10 hours a week moaning that their taxes are paying for lazy migrants or other 18 year olds wanting to abolish borders completely. Give them space to live a little - it's not like any of you had the exact same views you do now at a young age.
That said, can we please ban Christmas?
That said, can we please ban Christmas?
The problem with this is safe spaces and having the option to avoid all other worldviews means they wont get this exposure.
Unbelievably. free speech is being labelled as a fascist trick. It was once the bedrock of a liberal society.
For an hour or two. By that standard my shed is a safe space.
And, as has been mentioned a few times in this thread it has little to do with free speech overall - otherwise the rules the admins impose on this forum would fall foul to the same standards. Alcoholics Anonymous not wanting a Strongbow representative at their meeting isn't looked down on - why should we look down on LGBT societies not inviting Mike Pence to their meetings?
I'm afraid you've fallen for the half-story told against safe spaces. It's not about avoiding all other world views, it's usually minority groups getting together and breathing a sigh of relief. Or people looking for help and someone who understands their struggle.
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I've not fallen for anything and using wild extremes to make your point do not validate it.
Free speech always comes with the proviso of not doing harm - as most decent values do, not blocking debate of opposing views.
The movement fought hard for free speech for decades against fascism. The irony should not be lost on you.
I'm yet to see an actual example of a safe space that isn't a breitbart half story, by the way. Just vague nonsense about how women and minorities are ruining free speech.
Whats wrong with a safe space? I'd love one on here for match days, so as I only have to read positive, uplifting, posts and not moaning, negative ones. A safe space works in essentially the same way, no? Or, have I got it completely wrong?
That would be an example of one, yes.
So if people who feel left out or undermined by society want to group, in a designated area, that is only for them and not be around people who would most likely act in a negative or derogatory way towards them, where is the problem in that?
I'm yet to hear a coherent argument against them. It usually winds up be something to do with the end of free speech (which most of the world has less of than America, where the safe spaces are, anyway).
Coincidentally, there is a safe space when the football forums are in meltdown and you want to avoid them. I'm sure someone will be along in a moment to tell us we shouldn't avoid the doom and gloom when we draw a match.
Also ignores the common "that is reverse racism", "you are the real racist" and "not all men are like that" you would also hear in college discussions.
No idea. It is political correctness gone mad I tell you.
I'm not of course entirely serious and safe spaces relate to a need to protect from bigotry rather than starting from a point of exclusion based on bigotry. Of course it does give fuel to the poor only middle class white bloke who can now complain about being discriminated against.
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I might be a bit OTT here but I've always believed that women, LGBT people and minorities have a harder time, just trying to live a normal life, than you're average joe. If they want a place to get together and share experiences away from people who don't understand 'what it's like' then more power to them.
Yes, okay, not every man is a misogynist.
Not every white guy is a racist
and not every straight person is a homophobe but I'd wager they don't really know what it's like to live that particular lifestyle.
Yes, okay, not every man is a misogynist.
Not every white guy is a racist
and not every straight person is a homophobe but I'd wager they don't really know what it's like to live that particular lifestyle.
I wouldn't say I have an easy life and definitely not had a privileged one but I think I could get behind the idea that my life is certainly less complicated by the fact that I'm a straight, white, male. I don't see a problem with saying something like that and certainly have no problem with other people feeling that way.
I totally agree. Sadly many straight, white males think that just because their lives aren't perfect that this means that they are discriminated against.
Yeah but guys like you aren't the problem.
It's the intellectually superior alpha males who are constantly oppressed by stupid weak women in power. Sarcasm is "a sharp, bitter, or cutting expression or remark; a bitter gibe or taunt."Sarcasm may employ ambivalence, although sarcasm is not necessarily ironic. "The distinctive quality of sarcasm is present in the spoken word and manifested chiefly by vocal inflections". The sarcastic content of a statement will be dependent upon the context in which it appears. wiki
I just don't get it. Why can't we live in a world where the majority just want whats best for themselves AND everyone else? Is that just too idealistic or do we actually live in a world like that but all the attention goes to the negative people? Is it a case of those with noting real to say, make the most noise?
Not to mention that considering the way they're talked about, you'd think they're incredibly prevalent and used by everyone. I'm not sure I know anyone who's really ever used them in a university campus context...and that would completely go against this bizarre, hyperbolic argument that they're leading to our current generations to become weaker, or whatever other accusations are thrown around.
Maybe one of your friends was in a Board Game society? Such an evil institution, why can't people not play boardgames!!!!
Snakes and ladders! Back in my day it was Muslims and Hammers!!
Can we at least agree, that clicking or jazz hands in place of clapping, verges on the ridiculous?
I just googled that. Yes we can.
Seriously though, I would feel really sorry for anyone that suffered so badly from anxiety, that even a round of applause could make them feel bad. That must be shit.
Spot on. Safe spaces for various minorities is a good thing, but you described the issue perfectly. A university should be a place for discourse and intellectual exchange, not a echo chamber that treats you like a child. This goes for people on both ends of the spectrum really, but if you are so blinkered that you can't bear to hear an opposing view without organizing a protest or go into hiding, you aren't mature enough to attend a University imo.
This kind of trench warfare mindset does no good, and it never has.
The stuff about trigger warnings piss me off though because it makes light of people with actual anxiety disorders and instead it's being used to push an agenda. Don't tell me that Caucasian people get "triggered" to the point of needing professional help by reading Huckleberry Finn because it showcases racism.
Verges? It's way past verging. I find the whole trigger thing very confusing. It basically inflicts the irrational anxieties of one individual onto everbody else. And even for that individual I'm not sure its healthy to go through life avoiding anything that makes you feel uncomfortable. Seems like a sure fire way to increase the anxiety you feel when you eventually, inevitably, experience a situation that triggers you in a far less controlled environment than - say - a university lecture.
This thread is starting to stress me out, could everyone just stop it please.
This is a new one to me. I thought that gatherings of hearing-impaired people sometimes do the jazz hand gesture instead of clapping. Why would clapping be a problem for anyone not hearing-impaired?
Even for deaf, why would clapping be a problem? It's still visually distinctive.
Apparently the sound of clapping can trigger non-specific anxieties in feminists, for reasons never fully explained.
I would love to have been a fly on the wall at that conference, those repeated outbreaks of jazz hands must have been quite a sight.
*feminist jazz hands.