Has political correctness actually gone mad?

SquishyMcSquish said:
How long after the article posted had the person started this? It was a handful of times then. In theory they could switch between genders as much as they like.

And acting like societies like Ancient Rome or Ancient Greece were gender fluid is misleading. For the most part there were very strict gender structures in both. They're both ancient societies so there were obviously a shit ton of ideas floating about, but gender fluidity wasn't some normal or accepted practise in either worlds. Even Ancient Egypt was absolutely predominantly binary with set understandings/expectations for both men & women. The idea of a 'third gender' that existed in Ancient Egypt have been heavily questioned as well, there's very little actual evidence of it but people found bits and pieces and immediately use it to imply that ancient societies were non-binary.
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Now you're speculating in order to stick to your original hyperbole. A handful of times is the only truth we have.
Unless you can find a follow up article? The onus is on you to find proof that the policeman in question is changing their gender identity daily.

I'm not going to list every civilisation which has documented recordings of a third gender: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Transgender_history
Nor is "third gender" the only way to recognise any indication of transgenderism within those societies - it can come from acceptance of cross-dressing or lack of assigned pronouns at birth (this is prevalent in West African history)

The point is that transgenders, and non-binary individuals aren't new, aren't crazy, and don't deserve ridicule. It's really that simple.
 
Shamwow said:
You're not engaging with this argument in an honest way so you don't really deserve anything other than being called out for your bigoted views.

Example: You onstensibly use the "police officer's" comment to inform your view that the gender fluid PC is a bad thing. Someone points out that it's a former police officer who has been disciplined for having extreme bigoted views. That doesn't change the opinion that you formed from his comment at all. From that point on you were clearly full of shit.
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There is no argument to be had here. It took about 5 seconds for the insults/put down's to start flying out and the usual brigade to pile in.

I didn't form an opinion from his comment. I used it to point out that people associated with the police force think that there's an issue over wasted resources, but clearly he has an agenda and I recognised that. My view on somebody who changes their gender regularly was set before I read the article at all.
 
SquishyMcSquish said:
Yeah you made a real genuine attempt there to have a conversation with me. I could smell the sincerity from here.

You and your buddies aren't interested in any kind of a discussion. You're interested in a 'it's my belief, or you're a disgusting bigot' line of thinking and you're happy to shout that at anybody who steps out of line.
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You started off literally calling people mental ill because they are gender fluid, which so far you shown to be based on nothing(Not to forget the part where you asked someone for a fight) . I tried to explain why being gender fluid isn't the same as having a mental illness like split personal disorder, to which you completely ignored the answers.

Christ is it not exhausting being this straight ?
 
SquishyMcSquish said:
There is no argument to be had here. It took about 5 seconds for the insults/put down's to start flying out and the usual brigade to pile in.

I didn't form an opinion from his comment. I used it to point out that people associated with the police force think that there's an issue over wasted resources, but clearly he has an agenda and I recognised that. My view on somebody who changes their gender regularly was set before I read the article at all.
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So you didn't use his comment to form an opinion, except in the next sentence you admit that you did use it to inform your view that "people associated with the police force think that there's an issue over wasted resources". So actually you did. You know you can't bullshit about things that you write down in a public forum right? This is why people have stopped engaging with you.
 
villain said:
Now you're speculating in order to stick to your original hyperbole. A handful of times is the only truth we have.
Unless you can find a follow up article? The onus is on you to find proof that the policeman in question is changing their gender identity daily.

I'm not going to list every civilisation which has documented recordings of a third gender: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Transgender_history
Nor is "third gender" the only way to recognise any indication of transgenderism within those societies - it can come from acceptance of cross-dressing or lack of assigned pronouns at birth (this is prevalent in West African history)

The point is that transgenders, and non-binary individuals aren't new, aren't crazy, and don't deserve ridicule. It's really that simple.
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We don't know the relevance of that 'handful of times' comment. What was it, a handful of times in the space of a week? Two weeks? We don't know. You're speculating just as much as I did.

And I'm aware there's a history of transgenderism and that it isn't just a modern concept. A lot of the examples on that wiki are tenuous at best though, and people grasp for ways to portray societies as something they really weren't because it backs up their current world view. It's revisionism at it's finest.

They don't deserve ridicule, but you can't conclusively say that people who switch between genders regularly are not suffering from some mental disorder.
 
Shamwow said:
So you didn't use his comment to form an opinion, except in the next sentence you admit that you did use it to inform your view that "people associated with the police force think that there's an issue over wasted resources". So actually you did. You know you can't bullshit about things that you write down in a public forum right? This is why people have stopped engaging with you.
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I used it as an example of people associated with the police force disagreeing with the move. Why would that mean it's the reason I held that view?

You're acting like I didn't hold a view until I saw that quote, and then suddenly based my views entirely on what this one officer said. Which isn't true.
 
SquishyMcSquish said:
We don't know the relevance of that 'handful of times' comment. What was it, a handful of times in the space of a week? Two weeks? We don't know. You're speculating just as much as I did.

And I'm aware there's a history of transgenderism and that it isn't just a modern concept. A lot of the examples on that wiki are tenuous at best though, and people grasp for ways to portray societies as something they really weren't because it backs up their current world view. It's revisionism at it's finest.

They don't deserve ridicule, but you can't conclusively say that people who switch between genders regularly are not suffering from some mental disorder.
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You said the policeman was changing their identity daily, you can't prove this to be true - therefore repeating it over and over is insincere at best.

There's statues, elected officials, documented evidence of third genders - these are all facts. Whether you think it's tenuous or a false portrayal of society is your own opinion.

Unless you know the person in question - you have no basis to comment on someone else's mental health.
 
SquishyMcSquish said:
They don't deserve ridicule, but you can't conclusively say that people who switch between genders regularly are not suffering from some mental disorder.
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Where are the undisputed rules regarding how people should live their lives? By this I mean objective rules, as opposed to rules designed to lump people into a mass beholden to societal order.
 
SquishyMcSquish said:
I used it as an example of people associated with the police force disagreeing with the move. Why would that mean it's the reason I held that view?

You're acting like I didn't hold a view until I saw that quote, and then suddenly based my views entirely on what this one officer said. Which isn't true.
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It's the only example you used, even when it was pointed out that the example in question was not reliable. So we can only assume that you used it to inform your view that "people associated with the police force disagree with the move".
 
villain said:
Now you're speculating in order to stick to your original hyperbole. A handful of times is the only truth we have.
Unless you can find a follow up article? The onus is on you to find proof that the policeman in question is changing their gender identity daily.

I'm not going to list every civilisation which has documented recordings of a third gender: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Transgender_history
Nor is "third gender" the only way to recognise any indication of transgenderism within those societies - it can come from acceptance of cross-dressing or lack of assigned pronouns at birth (this is prevalent in West African history)

The point is that transgenders, and non-binary individuals aren't new, aren't crazy, and don't deserve ridicule. It's really that simple.
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If this is all that was argued, 99% of people would agree.

It has always existed but has always been seen as more of a disorder and I don't understand why that is such a bad thing to say.
 
Maybe the cure for their 'disorder' is to change their gender. How you want to define it isn't entirely relevant. Leaving aside whether its rude or hurtful
 
shamans said:
It has always existed but has always been seen as more of a disorder and I don't understand why that is such a bad thing to say.
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There are whole groups of people, including those deemed 'mad', who were once considered to have unique and wise insights into everything from existence to practical politics; to ignore this historical fact is also to dismiss groundbreaking modern philosophers and their perceptive conclusions.

I must repeat, because I feel strongly about this, that media denigration and belittlement of these people is a strategy: a strategy of encouraging the masses to avoid thinking that there could be another way of 'government' beyond the flawed and exploitative status quo.
 
SquishyMcSquish said:
Yeah if you wake up every day and have to decide what gender you feel like on that day, you're totally a mentally stable person and we should all just pretend like that's normal so we don't hurt feelings.
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If you ignore the concept of gender, it doesn’t really matter what someone wakes up and feels like. Just be a good human, treat others how you would like to be treated, and that’s good enough to carry society forward in a positive direction.
 
Sweet Square said:
You started off literally calling people mental ill because they are gender fluid, which so far you shown to be based on nothing(Not to forget the part where you asked someone for a fight) . I tried to explain why being gender fluid isn't the same as having a mental illness like split personal disorder, to which you completely ignored the answers.

Christ is it not exhausting being this straight ?
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It’s ok to say mentally ill. If the same people also accept others using the term ‘Mental Openness’.

The problem is the idea of a cookie cutter ideal of ‘Baseline normal’.

Something being ‘Normal’ means everything that deviates is abnormal. It’s here that we run into issues.

I’ve experienced plenty of people that have a world view based on newspaper clippings that’s massively out of step with how they act in real life. They can tear strips off of someone in a Daily Mail article... but if their bus driver swapped from shirt and trousers to a dress every other day, with a smile and niceties... they’d tell positive stories about that.

People are just really weird.
 
UnrelatedPsuedo said:
If you ignore the concept of gender, it doesn’t really matter what someone wakes up and feels like. Just be a good human, treat others how you would like to be treated, and that’s good enough to carry society forward in a positive direction.
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That may work in an alternate universe but definitions and labels serve purpose for the most part.
 
UnrelatedPsuedo said:
What purpose exactly?

Also: If we’re not trying to create an alternative world, there’s no fecking point.
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In all of science and research gender is very important. In simple things like fighting the wage gape and enabling women to have more access to fields like technology, it is important.

Your idea of not worrying about anyone's gender is a very naive one, despite your good intentions.
 
shamans said:
In all of science and research gender is very important. In simple things like fighting the wage gape and enabling women to have more access to fields like technology, it is important.

Your idea of not worrying about anyone's gender is a very naive one, despite your good intentions.
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None of those things are true.

‘Equal pay for everyone’ solves the problem better than ‘Equal pay for women’.

People are just way too precious about words, and not sensitive enough to basic humanity.
 
UnrelatedPsuedo said:
None of those things are true.

‘Equal pay for everyone’ solves the problem better than ‘Equal pay for women’.

People are just way too precious about words, and not sensitive enough to basic humanity.
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That's just fantasy. Women getting maternity leave that they deserve for instance is a huge issue. Since men don't get it, women shouldn't either?

Also, a focus on women in STEM fields is needed right now. The playing field is not level. You can't just be unfair to one gender or years and then say "alright, all equal from now" once you're in a position of power
 
Absolutely it has.

In Berlin there occured a traffic incident a few days ago. A man in a Porsche SUV killed 4 pedestrians, driving straight into them. The driver seems to have had an epileptic seizure but for a week now the media is phantasizing about banning SUVs from cities and why they are pointless and only there to show off mixed with environment arguments which have nothing to do with the actual reason for the incident. As if a 1.4 ton Honda Civic driving straight into pedestrians with over 40 mph would not have the same outcome, let alone heavy electric cars which weigh more than some SUVs.
 
Cait Sith said:
Absolutely it has.

In Berlin there occured a traffic incident a few days ago. A man in a Porsche SUV killed 4 pedestrians, driving straight into them. The driver seems to have had an epileptic seizure but for a week now the media is phantasizing about banning SUVs from cities and why they are pointless and only there to show off mixed with environment arguments which have nothing to do with the actual reason for the incident. As if a 1.4 ton Honda Civic driving straight into pedestrians with over 40 mph would not have the same outcome, let alone heavy electric cars which weigh more than some SUVs.
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With respect, what does any of that have to do with Political Correctness?
 
Yeah that's health and safety gone mad, which is a bit too early 2000s for this thread.
 
JakeC said:
With respect, what does any of that have to do with Political Correctness?
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It's politically correct and en vogue right now to condemn cars and specifically bigger cars due to the hot (no pun intented) climate change topic. Ever since the Green Party is polling around 25 % in Germany (for years they were a 8 - 10 % party), politicians and media have framed their narratives around that topic. Even a simple car incident has turned into a political debate about big evil SUVs, including climate debate. If a politician came out right now that he owned a private Porsche SUV, media would roast him. The politically correct way to move from point A to B is by public transportation, by bike or with an electric car at most.

Think it has to do with the topic.
 
shamans said:
Also, a focus on women in STEM fields is needed right now. The playing field is not level. You can't just be unfair to one gender or years and then say "alright, all equal from now" once you're in a position of power
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What areas of the playing field are not level in STEM right now?
 
hobbers said:
What areas of the playing field are not level in STEM right now?
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A professor at a world-famous university refuses to hire any women who aren't Asian, since they would naturally not be able to keep up with the rigorous maths his research needs. Nobody complains (including the Asian women who get in and then get told that they're in because they're Asian) because it would jeopardise their own docorate, relationship with the university, and their future career before it has started.

*Asian means East Asia, not India, etc. So China, Japan, and Korea.
 
shamans said:
That's just fantasy. Women getting maternity leave that they deserve for instance is a huge issue. Since men don't get it, women shouldn't either?

Also, a focus on women in STEM fields is needed right now. The playing field is not level. You can't just be unfair to one gender or years and then say "alright, all equal from now" once you're in a position of power
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How is what I said in any way a suggestion of me wishing to take away maternity leave? Plenty of countries already give both parents parental leave after having a child. Given both humans that have a child, equal time at home with their new child is a good idea. Though at the same time, the human that’s pushed another life out of her body and experienced some pretty big physical trauma, should dictate what that number of weeks/months that runs too.

Regarding a focus on women in stem.... it’s less about promoting women, than it is removing all of the barriers that are there. Anything limiting should burn.

Level the opportunity. Across the board. That was my point.
 
UnrelatedPsuedo said:
How is what I said in any way a suggestion of me wishing to take away maternity leave? Plenty of countries already give both parents parental leave after having a child. Given both humans that have a child, equal time at home with their new child is a good idea. Though at the same time, the human that’s pushed another life out of her body and experienced some pretty big physical trauma, should dictate what that number of weeks/months that runs too.

Regarding a focus on women in stem.... it’s less about promoting women, than it is removing all of the barriers that are there. Anything limiting should burn.

Level the opportunity. Across the board. That was my point.
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Identifying genders then becomes important and a world where we all have no gender is not feasible
 
berbatrick said:
A professor at a world-famous university refuses to hire any women who aren't Asian, since they would naturally not be able to keep up with the rigorous maths his research needs. Nobody complains (including the Asian women who get in and then get told that they're in because they're Asian) because it would jeopardise their own docorate, relationship with the university, and their future career before it has started.

*Asian means East Asia, not India, etc. So China, Japan, and Korea.
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Do you mean he only recruits Asian women, or that the only women he recruits are Asian? There are plenty of cantankerous blinkered old professors out there with major hiring biases, which I guess is difficult to combat other than waiting for them to retire. On the other hand, depending on the field, if it's a tiny pool of people with both knowledge of the specific field and maths background, it's not out the bounds of reason to assume most of the women meeting those criteria will be Asian anyway.

I do know of several young female PIs who are only interested in having all-female labs. From the students they take on to the technicians and postdocs. Hard to say really where I stand on that sort of thing.


shamans said:
Software engineering. I'm in the field and it's more difficult for a woman to break in.
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That's a case of getting more women into the subject at degree level, rather than a problem with hiring practices, right?
 
Vato said:
UFC could be forced to dump Octagon girls after politician moans that woman parading in bikinis at fights is ‘outdated’

Live and let live and all that but don't take away the octagon girls you pieces of shit! :mad:


They earn good money and no one is forcing them to do it. Honestly, who gives a shit?

I just don't get it. Do they think they're doing the right thing or is it just pure envy and jealousy with some people?
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Men have to pretend they don't like looking at scantily clad women anymore. Apparently it's some sort of way to oppress women by having me eating out of the palm of their hand. :lol:
 
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balaks said:
Of course I wouldn't tolerate a racist but I worry that if we start jumping to calling people bigots, racists, whatever, anytime somebody puts forward a point of view that we don't agree with instead of engaging in debate then nobody's mind is going to get changed and everybody is just going to end up angry.
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I just want to point out that this
SquishyMcSquish said:
The Met officer quoted talks about the wasted resources. They're ok dedicating time and money to somebody supposedly waking up every morning a new gender. Should be dedicating resources to getting the person mental help.
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which was what drew out accusations of bigotry, is a bigoted statement, and there's nothing wrong with calling it out as such. If we ignore the fact that it's completely fecking disgusting to call someone's mental health into question based on so little, you still have the issue of trans people being labeled as mentally ill by bigots, despite science disagreeing with them. It's a very convenient excuse to be able to ignore them and their wishes, and to get angry when someone decides to respect them. Notice how he continuously tries to make it as big of a problem as possible? Same reason; To justify getting angry about it.
SquishyMcSquish said:
If somebody who is switching between genders daily (surely this would come under multiple personality disorder?) isn't mentally ill, then what are they?
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You very clearly haven't a clue about gender fluidity nor multiple personality disorder, so I'm completely stumped as to why you ever thought you could wade into it, with your obvious hostility towards the subject, and come out looking like anything but a bigot? It's like your posts were designed for that express purpose.
They don't deserve ridicule, but you can't conclusively say that people who switch between genders regularly are not suffering from some mental disorder.
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We can conclusively say that being gender fluid is, by itself, not a sign of a mental disorder, and questioning someone's mental health based on the single fact that they identify as such is revolting.
 
Kinell. Some right knuckle draggers in this thread.
 
Halftrack said:
I just want to point out that this

which was what drew out accusations of bigotry, is a bigoted statement, and there's nothing wrong with calling it out as such. If we ignore the fact that it's completely fecking disgusting to call someone's mental health into question based on so little, you still have the issue of trans people being labeled as mentally ill by bigots, despite science disagreeing with them. It's a very convenient excuse to be able to ignore them and their wishes, and to get angry when someone decides to respect them. Notice how he continuously tries to make it as big of a problem as possible? Same reason; To justify getting angry about it.

You very clearly haven't a clue about gender fluidity nor multiple personality disorder, so I'm completely stumped as to why you ever thought you could wade into it, with your obvious hostility towards the subject, and come out looking like anything but a bigot? It's like your posts were designed for that express purpose.

We can conclusively say that being gender fluid is, by itself, not a sign of a mental disorder, and questioning someone's mental health based on the single fact that they identify as such is revolting.
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I think one of the issues with being Gender fluid is then the struggle to try and port it onto existing norms like being male or female. Surely there's a better way to deal with this than having two names and switching between genders as if it is black and white.

I'd also agree that it's one thing to want to examine mental health disorders and the roll they play in these issues and it is another to just point and declare they must be mentally ill!
 
Halftrack said:
IYou very clearly haven't a clue about gender fluidity nor multiple personality disorder, so I'm completely stumped as to why you ever thought you could wade into it, with your obvious hostility towards the subject, and come out looking like anything but a bigot? It's like your posts were designed for that express purpose.
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And neither do you it seems.

fergieisold said:
I think one of the issues with being Gender fluid is then the struggle to try and port it onto existing norms like being male or female. Surely there's a better way to deal with this than having two names and switching between genders as if it is black and white.

I'd also agree that it's one thing to want to examine mental health disorders and the roll they play in these issues and it is another to just point and declare they must be mentally ill!
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One of the biggest issues about gender fluidity is the fact that most of the time it's driven by autogynephilia, just look at the Jessica Yaniv case in Canada where self identification laws mean these individuals get protection when they walk into beauty salons and demand their balls get waxed because the salon offers Women's waxing services. This means most trans girls are subjected and tared with a brush because Malcolm likes to stick a dress on and visit the girls changing rooms. Protection is in place to distinguish real gender dysphoria from being a perverse fetish and those safe guards need to remain in place otherwise we open a can of worms. A world where a guy on a stag do wearing a wig and getting into a fight can claim a hate crime because at that moment he was identifying as a woman!

Trans protection and equality should be afforded to those who are seeking medical intervention only to help with dysphoria, not those suffering from liking to have a quick hand shank in the ladies wearing a pair of tights.

https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2019/jul/27/male-genitalia-week-in-patriarchy-women
 
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