English, 100% caucasian.
And related to a fish by the looks of it.
EDIT. wish I hadn't posted that after reading a post from Pexbo. My apologies if I have offended anyone.
Has political correctness actually gone mad?
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In the latest episode of the United Hour Podcast, Nik (@Rood) is joined by CEO Duncan Drasdo and Financial Director Andy Green from the Manchester United Supporters Trust for a special episode on all things behind the scenes at Old Trafford including a brief history of MUST and their aims today, views on INEOS and Sir Jim Ratcliffe so far, and the Old Trafford regeneration.
And related to a fish by the looks of it.
EDIT. wish I hadn't posted that after reading a post from Pexbo. My apologies if I have offended anyone.
Oh gawd.
Now I have read this, I really do feel bad about another post I made saying that it looks like she is related to a fish.
I think there's a lot to be said when white women who don't fulfil white beauty standards look to the Black community for sanctuary and recognition, as if we're some sort of rehab - especially when those same white women can pick parts about black culture they like, disregard others & benefit from the privilege all the while, black people don't get that same ability or privilege.
Not that I don't have empathy for what she's gone through, and it's not like she's the first white woman to do this (far from it), but it still doesn't make it okay and there needs to be a way for her to seek help and improve her self confidence without erasing the experiences black women go through and appropriating black culture at the same time.
edit - also when her mixed race bandmates were facing racist abuse from fans, Jesy didn't make any attempt to stand up for them publicly (another white band mate did though), so it's hard to believe that she genuinely stands with and supports the black community when it really matters.
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Feel sorry for anyone suffering mentally, but just for a minute reimagine the situation and apply those quotes as coming from James Corden to justify his decision to go blackface 100% of the time.
The cultural appropriation accusations I get but how is she “erasing the experiences black women go through”?
It's a lot to comment on if you don't have an understanding of the history of how the media has represented eurocentric features which are typical for white women vs features that are typical to black women, so I would start there if you wanted to do some research on the topic.
But long story short, Jesy being ridiculed for her natural appearance meant that she turned to and was able to pick and choose which typically black features she wanted to accentuate (bigger lips, darker skin, curly hair etc) to alleviate her self-confidence. She's able to do this because there's a history of white women succeeding & profiting by doing the exact same thing (e.g. the entire Kardashian family) without having to face the racism and ridicule that black women have had to endure throughout history because black features are only deemed desirable when they aren't on black skin.
Meanwhile black women continue to endure those same self-confidence issues without having the luxury to co-opt eurocentric features, and still aren't seen as an example of what classic beauty is, despite 'the kardashian look' being a blueprint for pretty much the majority of young girls in western society today, and for the last 10 years or so.
The real issue that needs to be addressed is those in the media & public who deem it acceptable to be fatphobic (I assume this is what Jesy went through) and drive down the self confidence of similar young girls, and for her to seek counselling for the trauma she experienced rather than simply freely co-opting blackness when it's convenient and profitable.
Something that only exist on the internet.
I don’t think the desire for fuller lips and darker skin (i.e. fake tan) are necessarily intended to co-opt the appearance of black women. Full lips have been deemed attractive since Shakespeare (probably longer). There’s an anthropological theory that this goes back to walking upright and full lips were seen as a sign of fertility once the nether lips were less obviously on display! A tan is about an ostentatious display of wealth, if anything. Look at me. I can afford a winter sun holiday. Plus it makes eyes look clearer, teeth whiter etc
The hair and fashion thing I get and understand. And choosing as a fashion accessory something which black kids have a long history of being teased/ridiculed about definitely seems wrong. Side note. An Irish author, Emma Dabiri, has written a book on exactly this issue - Don’t Touch My Hair. Reckon you’d like it.
I know I’m being pedantic but I’m old and need to be educated on this stuff, so humour me. Why use the word “erasure”? How is a white person with dreds erasing anything?
Are people on the internet not real, and therefore their experiences & perspectives also real?
Just because your reality doesn't include blackfishing doesn't mean it doesn't exist or isn't valid.
You're missing out on the crucial part
That's the erasure.
Shakespeare might have waxed lyrical about big lips, but black women (and men) become the source of ridicule and racism - and compared to monkeys & such.
A tan might represent wealth, but dark skin is again ridiculed as being dirty, or linked to criminality.
If you want to be educated on this stuff, honestly there's thousands of stuff out there which i'm sure you're not old enough to research yourself, and i'm not trying to sound pedantic or rude - I know my writing style is short.
The fake tan / darker skin thing isn’t a wealth thing either. No one wants darker or tanned skin to give the impression they’re wealthier. It’s because it’s seen as exotic, foreign, sun kissed and appealing. It’s also interesting you cite Shakespeare because in his time, the whiter you were the more aristocratic and wealthy you were to the point that they would intentionally poison themselves to get whiter. Having darker skin now is seen as healthier too.
How do you know how everyone with a tan feels? Or are you just generalising and putting your values on them?
Light skin was the fashion in the Victorian Era, because it showed that you didn't have to work in the fields. Hence, parasols.
Then Coco Chanel came along and started sunbathing and showing off her tan and then the fashion for tanned skin (you're right with the exotic holidays) came in.
Read the post a couple of posts above mine.
Put yourselves in the shoes of someone with a tan for a change
As a member of the pale brigade I'm sick of seeing people with tans.
Times change. Fashions change. I’m well aware it used to be a sign of wealth to be pale. I also know what the acronym ‘posh’ means. But that was a long time ago. The meaning of tanned skin has changed a lot since it stigmatised a person as working class.
But none of that is really relevant to the point I made, which is that there’s more to tanned skin than appropriating the skin tone of black people.
C'mon man, dont lose sight of the wood for the trees. This wan wants to sell her wares to the widest community possible, and to do so her marketing strategy involves masking herself up as being from black heritage, its mental.
Many aging (wannabe) famous people with marketing strategy involves masking themselves up in appeals to young people. What's the different??
I really don't see anything wrong with what that lady is doing. It's not harmful to anyone, nor against any law. All she wants is just to feel better and seeking attention; just like Pogba with his hair, and Dolly Parton with her boobs.
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Apart from portraying herself, and her music, coming from a completely false place (mainly race) I'd totally agree with you.
But, you know, pretending to be black and from the hood, when you're white and from middle England, well, yeah I can see why that might cause an issue.
It's all part of the show, man. Show to and that sells. It's like KISS with that costumes, and Black Sabbath chewed off bats head. That's what some of those entertainers do.
appropriating black culture for a ‘costume’ is highly offensive, especially when actual black people are victims for racism for the very same things, but white people can do it ‘for entertainment’, yet black people don’t get to take off their ‘costume’
How can you not see how fecked up that is?
Ok, it's real in the sense that people have found something new to kick up a fuss about. But that still only seems to be an internet based phenomena. You won't find discussion or serious concern about 'black fishing' out and about in public. Personally I feel anyone genuinely thinking black fishing is a problem/racist/cultural appropriation is just plain wrong!
The point about dark skin you made was that it's a show of wealth. Which it really isn't and hasn't been for a long long time (or ever?).
White music artists are appropriating black culture and beauty, however.
Again, your reality isn't reflective of everyone else though is it? Just because you only see discussions about it online doesn't mean that discussions are limited to online only. And even if they were, the internet is still a real place where real people share their perspectives. Have you ever considered that the internet is now a platform where everyone can peep into spaces that weren't available to us beforehand? We can get perspectives about whats going on in the world at our fingertips when even 20 years ago we had to rely on what the TV, Newspapers & other forms of media portrayed for us - and if you're part of a minority/marginalised group more often your perspective wasn't represented accurately.
Likewise, just because it's new to you doesn't mean it's actually new.
You can think what you want, it doesn't make it correct.
It definitely wasn’t a long time ago. I never tried to argue it was.
More recently, I think it has been. Wealth and health. Being pale has become associated with being poor and/or unhealthy. In my opinion. Happy to agree to disagree on this.
EDIT: I’m aware the whole pale vs dark thing can be very different in different cultures. I’m talking about this from the perspective of white people (i.e. the girl that kicked off this fuss)
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Does this mean all us POCs have been "whitefishing", wearing "white clothing" , with "white hair styles" , singing in "white language"? Or are there other factors? Do we have to be in the majority? Do we have to have been oppressed?
Jesus Christ, talk about tone deaf!
Car crash of a post I won't even bother to try and unpack.
I had a conversation about it yesterday fwiw… out and about, in public. Whatever they mean.. Or rather I watched my partner and I guy I know who wrote a book on racial stereotypes have a conversation about it, and I nodded a bit. But it was definitely in public, and we were very much out and about… I’ve also had quite a few conversations about cultural appropriation at home, or in other peoples kitchens, but I’m not sure whether they count… they werent in public, but they were “about”? Where do we stand on this?
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And what was the conclusion?
That it’s a pretty weird and problematic thing, particularly in the music industry and on social media. Specifically if the part of black culture you’re cosplaying is the “doo rag & baggy pants = thug/gangster adjacent” 90s stereotype of black men when you’re from Romford and you’ve only ever dated white guys
The point I was making is that the whole idea of "xfishing" is confusing, with everyone having different lines in the sand.
It was supposed to be tone deaf, because I'm trying to show how, from a slightly different perspective, an innocent enquiry becomes offensive to someone looking from a different perspective.
Weird it may be, but I'm not sure I quite grasp the issue with white artists performing as a stereotype of black men that black men created themselves.
How could, Jesy Nelson for example, do this correctly? If she came out and said yeah I love black culture, was vocal about white privilege, BLM etc, would that lessen the outrage about it/make what she’s doing ok? Or is it completely off the table to be white and dress the way she does? Most young girls in the UK right now have adopted similar fashions, are they all just as bad, or would it be ok just as long as they acknowledge why some black people are upset by it? Basically is the anger because of the clothes itself or because of the ignorance?
I'm not aware that races can't be cross-costumes, as it's deemed racist. Lots of asian women dye their hair blond, putting in blue eye contact lense, and wearing western style clothing. They even mix up their language with a bit english.
But i don't have any strong opinion on this. There should be a universal list that bound every people on the planet, of what is inappropriate, and what's not. People can't just judging based on whatever they feel. You have 100 people, you may have 100 opinions.
That's what I was trying to say earlier, what are the rules? And have I been doing it wrong for the last 40 years?
It’s bit of an odd one. As per @villain above, there’s a discussion to be had about changing your physical appearance to mimic the physical appearance that black people have no choice about e.g. big lips, dreds, tanned skin (although last one didn’t make sense to me at all) Similarly, it’s probably a bit iffy to appropriate traditional clothing that comes from a different heritage to your own.
I’m really struggling to understand the issue when it comes to choosing to wear, for example, clothes associated with modern phenomena like hip hop culture. It seems insanely pedantic to accuse white music artists of cultural appropriation in that context. We all know that hip hop culture has has predominantly black origins but it’s not some sort of closed shop. Might as well say white pop musicians shouldn’t make music at all, considering how many influences in modern music come from black culture.
You don't have a strong opinion on it because you most likely haven't spent your life hearing about all of your 'white' features(i'm assuming you're white, if not, then this post makes no sense
), I'm sure you can understand that if you had, maybe you would feel differently? It's very easy to be objective with no subjective experience.