Hating Lingard

OohAahMartial said:
I've practically given up on the forum...after 20 years. @Raoul @Niall I know you've been trying hard to get more new posters on the forum but it's seriously time for a mass cull because the place has got as bad as RAWK of late and it will drive away all the decent posters. Half the poster's I seriously doubt are even United fans. Quite simply, if someone starts attacking a United player or our manager in a way that if an oppo fan did that in the street he would get lynched by Reds then that should be bannable by itself.
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So you want us to become RAWK?
 
Ramshock said:
It affects how people view him which is the crux of this thread. I think he needs to be more consistant on the playing side but I do feel he is more talented than Welbeck for instance.
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Does his dancing honestly affect how you view him? Why not, just not watch his social media feed?
 
12OunceEpilogue said:
This is the crux of the matter I think, the feeling that if he cut out the antics and social media posting he would improve as a player. I'm not a particular fan of any of this sideshow but I find it hard to believe Jose would let it go on if he genuinely thought it was adversely affecting Lingard's training and his performance in matches.
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How on earth can his social media stuff make him a worse footballer?

To me, that's the most bizarre thing about all of this. It's not as though he's posting videos of himself downing bottles of Cristal, rolling out of night-clubs or poncing around in ridiculously expensive sports cars. The absolute worst sin he's committed has been being a bit giddy and childish. Yet this bends people all out of shape for some reason. It's very strange. All the more so when he also posts stuff like this.
 
Pogue Mahone said:
How on earth can his social media stuff make him a worse footballer?

To me, that's the most bizarre thing about all of this. It's not as though he's posting videos of himself downing bottles of Cristal, rolling out of night-clubs or poncing around in ridiculously expensive sports cars. The absolute worst sin he's committed has been being a bit giddy and childish. Yet this bends people all out of shape for some reason. It's very strange. All the more so when he also posts stuff like this.
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Generational conflict maybe? I'm not fond of the whole social media stuff either but I do simply ignore it. Instead of getting riled up about it.
 
Sarni said:
This is RedCafe nowadays, if Lingard were playing for City he'd be a 'good rotation player' and 'a beautiful man' but we find it so easy to put down our own players.

He's not a great player, he's not even very good but he has actually put in some important performances and has not been terrible for a squad option. In the long term you need better players in your first team but it's not like he has been preventing us from doing well.

He's not far behind what Park used to be, albeit worse.
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Agreed.
 
Pogue Mahone said:
How on earth can his social media stuff make him a worse footballer?

To me, that's the most bizarre thing about all of this. It's not as though he's posting videos of himself downing bottles of Cristal, rolling out of night-clubs or poncing around in ridiculously expensive sports cars. The absolute worst sin he's committed has been being a bit giddy and childish. Yet this bends people all out of shape for some reason. It's very strange. All the more so when he also posts stuff like this.
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This is what I don't get either, he's just having a laugh with his mates on snapchat/instagram, like almost every other 20-something who isn't completely miserable.

The fact that so many people don't like him because of what he posts on social media, and the need for him to 'knuckle down' is just thinly veiled personal dislike.

I would respect someone more if they just admitted they don't like him, instead of trying to dress it up as anything else.
 
This perception that some people have of him due to his social media/dancing, and how he would improve if he didn't do any of that, is the same asinine bollox that Garth Crooks spews out nearly every week when it comes to Pogba's fecking hair.

The mind boggles.
 
golden_blunder said:
News flash; we never have or never will be a team of galacticos like Madrid

Comparing to them is pointless, we need to be the best in our own playground first. We’re not that far away.

It’s not the likes of Lingard holding us back, it’s the first teamers not performing
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News flash, Madrid don't have a team full of 'galacticos'. Pogba probably cost more than Kroos and Casemiro put together. Carvajal,Nacho,Ascensio, Marcelo...they didn't break the bank for any of these players. They just seem to be a lot better at identifying and getting good players. They've bought a lot of average players too, but they usually ship them off sharpish.
 
The main problem he has in overcoming this is that he has an extremely annoying looking face.

He has the face of someone who picks a fight with you for no reason from 20 metres away, when they are with about 10 of their mates.
 
It's ironic that the top reds accusing fans of being fickle are the ones who suddenly expect people to change their opinion of him because he scored last night though we've been watching him for several years now....and this accusing people of 'hatred' rubbish. Some people think he's crap, or championship level, but apparently they all hate him because they don't share your opinion that he's the next Messi. It's stupid
 
fellaini's barber said:
It's ironic that the top reds accusing fans of being fickle are the ones who suddenly expect people to change their opinion of him because he scored last night though we've been watching him for several years now....and this accusing people of 'hatred' rubbish. Some people think he's crap, or championship level, but apparently they all hate him because they don't share your opinion that he's the next Messi. It's stupid
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You’re losing the plot. Where has anyone said he’s the next Messi or anything like it? The thread, I repeat, was made to show support for a player who imho gets over the top criticism.
 
Ramshock said:
Makes people take him less seriously.
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Because he has fun, and posts how much fun he has online? Why would that mean you take him less seriously?

What he chooses to do in his spare time - none of it illegal mind, just him having fun - honestly means you take him less seriously?

How childish.
 
He is a useful squad player who can be decent and sometimes quite good against mid/low tier sides. When you play close to 60 games a season, you need a lot of help from every player available. Especially when some of your more renowned names decide to act disinterested and useless or others get injured. If his instagram stories pisses you off, too bad.
 
vi1lain said:
Because he has fun, and posts how much fun he has online? Why would that mean you take him less seriously?

What he chooses to do in his spare time - none of it illegal mind, just him having fun - honestly means you take him less seriously?

How childish.
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I am talking about his detractors, why have you got a boner for me?
 
He’s a decent squad player to have and the fact that he’s a local lad and boyhood united fan is a bonus.

Some of the goals he’s scored are genuine works class too, fair play to him.
 
Decent squad player, never a starter. One match doesn't change what we've seen for seasons.
 
Ramshock said:
I am talking about his detractors, why have you got a boner for me?
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Ramshock said:
I like Lingard its just the miserable sod in me wants him to stop dancing and knuckle down to become more consistant.
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This is the root post of what I was quoting, so by 'his detractors', i'm assuming you are also someone who judges him on his dancing?

I'm just trying to understand how his dancing correlates to 'knuckling down'
 
verminater said:
So a player who just played a motm performance, topped with a deciding goal from his own half, is one of the poorest players we have?

You are the hater we're all talking about, you just haven't realised it yet.

@JoaquinJoaquin
As in our discussions in the performance thread (which I eventually gave up on), you say he needs to do that for a run of 5 or 6 games to change your mind about him? Seriously, who has 5 or 6 stonking games in a row?
If he performed like that all the time, he 1) wouldn't be a squad player for us. 2) he'd have spain's big two trying to turn his head.

Perhaps expectations have been your problem all along.
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Stonking game? He was stone average and scored a great solo goal. Let’s just be honest just like Mykytarin goals or assists doesn’t mask over shite performances.
 
SwansonsTache said:
Decent squad player, never a starter. One match doesn't change what we've seen for seasons.
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So far this season he's started 6 games. And scored 4 goals and 4 assists. Considering his main critcism in recent seasons has been a lack of creativity do you think that maybe, just maybe, it's not just "one match" and we're seeing a 24 year old footballer start to come into his prime and find the consistency that's been lacking from his game before now?
 
Lawman said:
Stonking game? He was stone average and scored a great solo goal. Let’s just be honest just like Mykytarin goals or assists doesn’t mask over shite performances.
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Dude, you're far too biased on this one. I'm not sure why but you're so determined to slag him off, your posts about him have started to bear no relevance to what just happened on the pitch.
 
Pogue Mahone said:
So far this season he's started 6 games. And scored 4 goals and 4 assists. Considering his main critcism in recent seasons has been a lack of creativity do you think that maybe, just maybe, it's not just "one match" and we're seeing a 24 year old footballer start to come into his prime and find the consistency that's been lacking from his game before now?
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He would have to be one hell of a late bloomer then, since nothing we've seen consistently so far is anything near starter level for where we want to be.

Finishing, pace, dribling, passing - I haven't seen any stand out quality from him except maybe his workrate and movement off the ball which is good.
 
SwansonsTache said:
He would have to be one hell of a late bloomer then, since nothing we've seen consistently so far is anything near starter level for where we want to be.
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And does that really happen that often?

Yes there are late bloomers, same as there are exceptions to every rule, but how many players reach their mid 20s and still have as far to go to look like they belong at the level he plays at let alone exceed at that level. I remember a few of my mates making the same argument about Welbeck. You can't assume that because someone hasn't reached a level by a certain age that they might be a late bloomer. It might happen but for people to build in an expectation of it is ridiculous.


These whole "Ahhhh, see!!!" conversations whenever a player has played well as if the performance somehow negates every opinion and performance prior to that date are easily the worst type of football discussion. People's opinion that Lingard isn't a particularly good player is formed around his scores of performances. The idea that somehow everyone who comes to that view is a 'hater' seems to only come to fruition after games where he's played well.

The "but he just scored so you're talking crap" methodolgy.
 
SwansonsTache said:
He would have to be one hell of a late bloomer then, since nothing we've seen consistently so far is anything near starter level for where we want to be.

Finishing, pace, dribling, passing - I haven't seen any stand out quality from him except maybe his workrate and movement off the ball which is good.
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He's shown himself capable of all of that. Just not at a consistently high standard. And there are loads of examples of players who only really started to play consistently at a very high level from round about the age that he is now.
 
Oscie said:
And does that really happen that often?

Yes there are late bloomers, same as there are exceptions to every rule, but how many players reach their mid 20s and still have as far to go to look like they belong at the level he plays at let alone exceed at that level. I remember a few of my mates making the same argument about Welbeck. You can't assume that because someone hasn't reached a level by a certain age that they might be a late bloomer. It might happen but for people to build in an expectation of it is ridiculous.
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Lingard's always been a late bloomer, though. Even in the underage teams he was always a bit behind his peers in terms of his development. So it's not that outrageous an expectation.
 
Pogue Mahone said:
He's shown himself capable of all of that. Just not at a consistently high standard. And there are loads of examples of players who only really started to play consistently at a very high level from round about the age that he is now.
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To become the player you think he might he would have to play pretty consistently, and his talent doesn't warrant that.

Martial and Rashford is the type of talents you play and accept some sub-par matches along the road for, since you just know the payoff will be huge down the road.
 
Pogue Mahone said:
Lingard's always been a late bloomer, though. Even in the underage teams he was always a bit behind his peers in terms of his development. So it's not that outrageous an expectation.
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That was because he was about 12 kilos until the age of 17. Have you seen the pics of him from the junior teams? Always the smalles guy around.
 
SwansonsTache said:
That was because he was about 12 kilos until the age of 17. Have you seen the pics of him from the junior teams? Always the smalles guy around.
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Well, exactly. And someone who is behind his peers in his formative years - for whatever reason - is more likely to be a late bloomer than someone who didn't have those growing pains.
 
SwansonsTache said:
To become the player you think he might he would have to play pretty consistently, and his talent doesn't warrant that.

Martial and Rashford is the type of talents you play and accept some sub-par matches along the road for, since you just know the payoff will be huge down the road.
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But last season weren't we all clamouring for Lingard to not play consistently and be a squad player?

Now he's doing that, and people are judging him as if he should be a starter.

I'm also interested in finding these squad players who are consistently able to provide even though they play 20/30 mins here and there, and start 15-20% of matches a team plays.
 
Pogue Mahone said:
How on earth can his social media stuff make him a worse footballer?

To me, that's the most bizarre thing about all of this. It's not as though he's posting videos of himself downing bottles of Cristal, rolling out of night-clubs or poncing around in ridiculously expensive sports cars. The absolute worst sin he's committed has been being a bit giddy and childish. Yet this bends people all out of shape for some reason. It's very strange. All the more so when he also posts stuff like this.
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I agree, it's odd. As has been said it may be a generation gap, people aren't used to seeing what players get up to away from the pitch in any kind of detail and so preferred a time when they could imagine them all training like demons from dawn until dusk. As you say I'd certainly prefer a player of ours pissing around on Instagram and doing daft dances than drinking himself into a early grave.
 
I don't get how anyone can complain about how Lingard handles himself off the field. He seems a model professional.

The thing that's noticeable about how well Lingard played last night was how noticeable an occurrence that seems to have been
 
vi1lain said:
This is the root post of what I was quoting, so by 'his detractors', i'm assuming you are also someone who judges him on his dancing?

I'm just trying to understand how his dancing correlates to 'knuckling down'
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I dont abuse him, all I said is the miserable sod in me wants him to knuckle down. If he scores 25 goals a season I couldt care less if he strode on the pitch on a white tiger.
 
When Glenn Hoddle claimed Andy Cole needed five chances to score a goal, it was obviously an idiotic thing to say about a player who was, in the main, a magnificent for us and a key part of our success.

But to switch this terminology around a bit, I feel Lingard is Mr Five Balls right now in that he simply can't get any consistency with his first, second, third or perhaps even fourth phases of play. He might on the fifth - or he might on the first - but this is where his game needs to step up. An attacking player must have precision, patience and continuity to ensure his side keeps the pressure on as it builds up moves, waits, and tries to find that final pass or shot that will make the difference.

Jesse doesn't have that yet - and the ratio of wastefulness to meaningful contribution is too skewed to the latter.

That said he does have goalscoring ability, movement and pace.

Sadly we can't do too much about that extremely important part between the ears.
 
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