Hazard, where does he rank among the best in the world

Varun said:
I don't disagree that he's good at all that you mentioned, just not better than Neymar at it. Passing probably but not the rest.

The fact that he drew the most fouls indicate how much Chelsea play through him. Not because he's a better dribbler than Messi or Neymar.
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True, that's the problem IMO. Chelsea have overburdened him with the creative duties as well as providing the individual brilliance in the final third. I don't think Neymar would be able to thrive at all if he was given a similar role in a team like Chelsea, he's an amazing outlet and developed a phenomenal understanding with Leo and hazard simply cannot preform that role either if he was substituted as Barca. But if I had to build a team around one of the two without knowing other aspects, I'll always go for Hazard.

Edit : also, by drawing fouls I didn't mean he was a better dribbler, just that he has great close control which means defenders usually cannot keep up with him. He, or anyone for that matter, cannot dream to be a better dribbler than Messi.
 
Revan said:
Since when UCL goals does not matter.

Muller is so much better than Hazard that it isn't even close. Hazard is better in dribbling but in everything else Muller is better.

Anyway, we can continue discussing it when finally Hazard scores an important goal or two.
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Well if that isn't a complete and utter over-exaggeration then I don't know what is.
 
Aldo said:
True, that's the problem IMO. Chelsea have overburdened him with the creative duties as well as providing the individual brilliance in the final third. I don't think Neymar would be able to thrive at all if he was given a similar role in a team like Chelsea, he's an amazing outlet and developed a phenomenal understanding with Leo and hazard simply cannot preform that role either if he was substituted as Barca. But if I had to build a team around one of the two without knowing other aspects, I'll always go for Hazard.

Edit : also, by drawing fouls I didn't mean he was a better dribbler, just that he has great close control which means defenders usually cannot keep up with him. He, or anyone for that matter, cannot dream to be a better dribbler than Messi.
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Why not? Neymar has a similar role for Brazil where the team is built around him. I agree his stats are boosted by playing at Barca which is why I don't get those who deem him better just because he has better numbers but even ignoring that, I find him the better player. Fair enough if you consider him the better player btw, I just don't see it. I think Neymar will be acknowledged as the 2nd best player in the world in couple of years.
 
Varun said:
Why not? Neymar has a similar role for Brazil where the team is built around him. I agree his stats are boosted by playing at Barca which is why I don't get those who deem him better just because he has better numbers but even ignoring that, I find him the better player. Fair enough if you consider him the better player btw, I just don't see it. I think Neymar will be acknowledged as the 2nd best player in the world in couple of years.
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Not because of stats, but overall attacking play and shouldering the responsibility. I haven't been too impressed by Neymar for Brazil, sure he has done well for a kid who's supposed to be carrying a team of mediocrity at home in a WC but I wouldn't say he's done really well. He just relies on individual brilliance a bit too much for my liking.
 
I don't follow Chelsea so often but when I see him I always feel that he is too isolated in the border of the field.I think that with his dribbling would be a nightmare if he had more freedom
 
Aldo said:
Vision, awareness of defenders around him as well as his teammates, ability to create space for others, creativity and unpredictability of his passes, timing of his passes. He's a great dribbler as well, the fact he's drawn more fouls than anyone in Europe tells us how difficult defenders find to stop him.

If I had to draw a parallel I'd say he reminds me of Pavel Nedved.
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I don't agree with that comparison. Nedved was a much better playmaker, more in the Zidane mould.

Hazard is more like Ribery. Not that good as a playmaker, but has more as an attacker, and is a mix between the two.

I agree that he's got all that more than Neymar. His all round game is indeed more complete. But Neymar trumps him by too much in a match-winning sense.

For me, Neymar is the 4th or 5th best player in the world depending on how Robben is, fitness wise. I'd have Hazard lower, alongside Aguero, Muller, Ibrahimovic etc.
 
amolbhatia50k said:
Nedved was a much better playmaker, more in the Zidane mould.
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Zidane's your classical playmaker who sits in the middle and pulls the strings, Nedved your wide attacking midfielder who combines several aspects of attacking play to open up play. Can't say I see the similarity myself. Do agree with Hazard-Ribery analogy.
 
Aldo said:
Zidane's your classical playmaker who sits in the middle and pulls the strings, Nedved your wide attacking midfielder who combines several aspects of attacking play to open up play. Can't say I see the similarity myself. Do agree with Hazard-Ribery analogy.
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I suppose you are correct. I do remember him as a better midfielder than hazard who comes across as less of a playmaker.
 
Aldo said:
Not because of stats, but overall attacking play and shouldering the responsibility. I haven't been too impressed by Neymar for Brazil, sure he has done well for a kid who's supposed to be carrying a team of mediocrity at home in a WC but I wouldn't say he's done really well. He just relies on individual brilliance a bit too much for my liking.
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Fair enough. I feel his individual brilliance is over and above being as good as hazard at the things you mentioned but we'll agree to disagree.
 
amolbhatia50k said:
I don't agree with that comparison. Nedved was a much better playmaker, more in the Zidane mould.

Hazard is more like Ribery. Not that good as a playmaker, but has more as an attacker, and is a mix between the two.

I agree that he's got all that more than Neymar. His all round game is indeed more complete. But Neymar trumps him by too much in a match-winning sense.

For me, Neymar is the 4th or 5th best player in the world depending on how Robben is, fitness wise. I'd have Hazard lower, alongside Aguero, Muller, Ibrahimovic etc.
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I agree with everything you've said there.
 
Raees said:
Messi
Ronaldo
Neymar
Robben
Suarez
Muller

followed by Verratti, Reus, Bale and Hazard in no particular order would be my top 10 although I'm not even sure on that.. Aguero rarely shows up for Argentina and Hazard is a quality playmaker, stats dont tell the full story with him... still has a way to go though. Nowhere near Neymar though.
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If you're taking national performances into the equation then Sánchez is at the very least at the same level as Hazard, IMO. Hazard has been better for Belgium recently but still miles behind Sánchez for Chile and there was little between them in the PL or CL last year.

I do think Hazard is very overrated because of the aesthetics of his game. For a great playmaker he spends an awful lot of games - big and small - drifting along on the periphery of matches. That chance created stat is ludicrous...if any stat tells you that Hazard is more creative than Messi then it goes without saying that stat is meaningless.

For someone who's given that much creative responsibility he needs to create more to be close to being one of the best players in the world. If he wasn't part of the PL hype machine it wouldn't even be mentioned.
 
He's comfortably amongst the top 10 players in the world.
 
For me it is still Messi and Ronaldo on a tier of their own, but Hazard is very much in the next set of players, along with Aguero, Neymar, Suarez and perhaps a couple of others.
 
Walrus said:
For me it is still Messi and Ronaldo on a tier of their own, but Hazard is very much in the next set of players, along with Aguero, Neymar, Suarez and perhaps a couple of others.
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I'd say he's a tier below Suarez, Aguero, and Neymar, actually. Probably Ibra too although he is getting on a bit.

I find it funny how he's seen as 'equal' (not necessarily by you) to so many of these players, yet he hasn't had a season remotely as good as their best season's yet. Hell, Bale in 12/13 was far better than Hazard last year, and according to some, Hazard is better?
 
Brwned said:
That chance created stat is ludicrous...if any stat tells you that Hazard is more creative than Messi then it goes without saying that stat is meaningless.
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Messi is the greatest of all time, but you can't just call stats 'meaningless' because you don't like them. There was some set of stats a while back that showed Hazards dribbling was better than Messi for a while. That doesn't make him a better player, it just means that one aspect of a players game can occasionally match or even improve on the masters.

Just to clarify, that was halfway through the season or something. Back in march they did this chart showing Hazard in second.

2658628C00000578-0-image-a-46_1425558349011.jpg
 
Cina said:
I'd say he's a tier below Suarez, Aguero, and Neymar, actually. Probably Ibra too although he is getting on a bit.

I find it funny how he's seen as 'equal' (not necessarily by you) to so many of these players, yet he hasn't had a season remotely as good as their best season's yet. Hell, Bale in 12/13 was far better than Hazard last year, and according to some, Hazard is better?
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I dont think stats are always the be-all and end-all with this sort of thing. What I see from Hazard when I watch Chelsea is a player who inevitably makes something happen, pretty much every single game. He is their player that makes the difference consistently, and against the big teams.

Hazard certainly hasnt (yet) performed at that high level over as many years as some of the other players mentioned, as he is younger, but I think his level of performance is pretty much right up there.
 
Walrus said:
I dont think stats are always the be-all and end-all with this sort of thing. What I see from Hazard when I watch Chelsea is a player who inevitably makes something happen, pretty much every single game. He is their player that makes the difference consistently, and against the big teams.

Hazard certainly hasnt (yet) performed at that high level over as many years as some of the other players mentioned, as he is younger, but I think his level of performance is pretty much right up there.
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They're not, but there's no doubting Hazard's end product just isn't good enough, yet. Certainly not enough to be considered as good as players as productive as Suarez and Aguero anyway. At the end of the day, he's still a forward and I don't think his goals/assists output is up to scratch yet. Certainly he does make things happen but if his end product was better, he'd make a hell of a lot more happen.
 
Cina said:
They're not, but there's no doubting Hazard's end product just isn't good enough, yet. Certainly not enough to be considered as good as players as productive as Suarez and Aguero anyway. At the end of the day, he's still a forward and I don't think his goals/assists output is up to scratch yet. Certainly he does make things happen but if his end product was better, he'd make a hell of a lot more happen.
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Why are we comparing the end product of a left winger to those of the worlds best strikers?
 
Cina said:
They're not, but there's no doubting Hazard's end product just isn't good enough, yet. Certainly not enough to be considered as good as players as productive as Suarez and Aguero anyway. At the end of the day, he's still a forward and I don't think his goals/assists output is up to scratch yet. Certainly he does make things happen but if his end product was better, he'd make a hell of a lot more happen.
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You call him a forward, but compared with pretty much every other player in the comparison, there is no doubt to me that Hazard does more defensively. It was something pretty widely publicised when he joined Chelsea, and Mourinho wanted him to get back more to fit into Jose's system. Suarez is obviously known for his work rate as well, but Hazard plays a deeper role and I would imagine spends a lot more time in his own half than the other players.


Edit: Pretty much what @Kentonio said
 
Kentonio said:
Messi is the greatest of all time, but you can't just call stats 'meaningless' because you don't like them. There was some set of stats a while back that showed Hazards dribbling was better than Messi for a while. That doesn't make him a better player, it just means that one aspect of a players game can occasionally match or even improve on the masters.

Just to clarify, that was halfway through the season or something. Back in march they did this chart showing Hazard in second.

2658628C00000578-0-image-a-46_1425558349011.jpg
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I still don't understand how that 'successful dribbles' stat works, but it has a very very odd focus on Bundesliga players, who simply aren't outstanding dribblers at all. Firmino is a good dribbler, but still nothing unique in an European context and Raffael, Bellarabi and Choupo-Moting shouldn't be anywhere near a list of exceptional dribblers, let alone occupy the 4th to 6th place in a list like that. It seems more coincidence that with Messi the undoubtly greatest and Hazard the arguably 2nd greatest dribbler in the game today top the list. Overall the list doesn't make much sense though, which means it doesn't really prove anything regarding the few names that happen to be in the list deservingly.
 
Kentonio said:
Why are we comparing the end product of a left winger to those of the worlds best strikers?
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Neymar didn't play as a striker last season.

I'm obviously not expecting him to match those players for sheer goals, but clearly his goals and assists stats are not good enough yet.
Walrus said:
You call him a forward, but compared with pretty much every other player in the comparison, there is no doubt to me that Hazard does more defensively. It was something pretty widely publicised when he joined Chelsea, and Mourinho wanted him to get back more to fit into Jose's system. Suarez is obviously known for his work rate as well, but Hazard plays a deeper role and I would imagine spends a lot more time in his own half than the other players.


Edit: Pretty much what @Kentonio said
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Yeah he does, but he still sees far more of the ball than any other Chelsea player in the attacking third so I don't think it's overly relevant, is it? The very fact that he has no many successful dribbles in that picture above shows how much of the ball he does see. I think it's obvious from watching Hazard week in week out that he is still very wasteful a lot of the time, he should definitely be doing better in that regard.
 
Cina said:
I'm obviously not expecting him to match those players for sheer goals, but clearly his goals and assists stats are not good enough yet.
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19 goals and 11 assists for a left winger? Honestly I expect more from him too, but that's purely because he's capable of being so much more. He's setting himself targets each year, last season he was aiming for 20 goals so fell just short, this season I'd imagine he'd be pushing more for the 25 mark.

From watching him all year though, he creates so much more than the stats suggest. There were numerous times when he created moves out of absolutely nothing, then laid the ball off for a fairly simple assist/finish for someone else. Stats wise he gets nothing more than a 'pass completed' for that, but in reality the goal came from his work.

Anyway, I'll leave it there because I know it gets boring when someone is just all puppy eyed about a player, but truthfully he's the best player my club has ever had. His ceiling is basically limitless, so you can understand why we get a bit over-excited from time to time. ;)
 
Cina said:
that's absurd. Neymar was way better than him last season.
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IMO, Hazard is the better player, marginally. Stats show that Neymar had a better season (and I haven't seen him as much as I have seen Hazard), but the Brazilian also plays for a team which performed statistically better and have one of the greatest player of all time making goals for him. Hazard, imo, has more to his game, is firmer on his feet, as good as dribbler and affects more games directly than Neymar does. Hazard will match/exceed Neymar's output whenever he'll move to Spain, which is inevitable.
 
Kentonio said:
19 goals and 11 assists for a left winger? Honestly I expect more from him too, but that's purely because he's capable of being so much more. He's setting himself targets each year, last season he was aiming for 20 goals so fell just short, this season I'd imagine he'd be pushing more for the 25 mark.

From watching him all year though, he creates so much more than the stats suggest. There were numerous times when he created moves out of absolutely nothing, then laid the ball off for a fairly simple assist/finish for someone else. Stats wise he gets nothing more than a 'pass completed' for that, but in reality the goal came from his work.

Anyway, I'll leave it there because I know it gets boring when someone is just all puppy eyed about a player, but truthfully he's the best player my club has ever had. His ceiling is basically limitless, so you can understand why we get a bit over-excited from time to time. ;)
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I know penalties do count, but still, wasn't it 13/14 goals without penalties? Not overly great really, and he does miss a lot of chances.

I do think he's potentially a top 5-7 player but he's definitely overrated, and it's not like he's still only a young lad now, he's nearly 25, you'd expect him to be hitting his prime soon and for him to live up to the (over) hype he needs to start pumping out 25+ goals as you said and really delivering in the big games, especially Europe.
 
I would say (attacking players only):

Tier 1: Messi, Ronaldo
Tier 2: Neymar, Suarez, Robben, Muller, Ibrahimovic, Aguero (assuming he's fit)
Tier 3: Reus, Hazard, Bale, Rodriguez, Silva, Sanchez, Benzema, Lewandovski

Something like that.
 
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Kentonio said:
Messi is the greatest of all time, but you can't just call stats 'meaningless' because you don't like them.
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He's calling them meaningless because they are bullshit. I remember there was a season where Ozil had more "key passes" than Messi and a few others, anyone who knows Messi's game will tell you he's the most creative passer in the world and has been for a while. I'd like to see this stat obsessed generation to 'analyze' a prime Scholes for example and see where they put him. Would be a funny read.
 
Cina said:
but there's no doubting Hazard's end product just isn't good enough, yet. Certainly not enough to be considered as good as players as productive as Suarez and Aguero anyway.
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Well done on comparing a creative attacking midfielder to a couple of strikers and comparing their end products.
 
Walrus said:
Hazard certainly hasnt (yet) performed at that high level over as many years as some of the other players mentioned, as he is younger, but I think his level of performance is pretty much right up there.
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Is it really, though? There is no doubt that Hazard played three very good league seasons for Chelsea (being the best of the league last season), but we are talking about the absolute elite here and for that top performances in only the league are not enought, no matter how strong the league is.

In the end the most competive and meaningful competition in club football is still the Champions League. The biggest stage where the stakes are the highest.

I would not even disagree that Hazard has ablities/skills on a similar level as the likes of Neymar, Müller or Reus, but all the skills in the world don´t matter that much if you can´t use them well when it matters the most. To this day I wait for a crucial CL game of Chelsea, where he really steps up and makes the difference. A game like Reus had in 2014 in the return fixture vs. Real when he nearly carried a truly mediocre side to a sensation and outclassed everyone on the pitch (he had a few of those games but this was the one which stood out the most) or the many games where Müller was the difference maker for Bayern.

I find it hilarious that people in this thread get laughed at for suggesting that Müller is the better player of the two. Look at the list of his accomplishments at the age of 25 and he was vital in every single one of them for both club and country (and that as more than just as scorer, because his biggest contribution is arguably not even his end product but the space he creates for his teammates). Compared to that Hazard had so far an overall pretty underwhelming career with Belgium and vanished in too many crucial Chelsea games to put him in the same tier.

Hazard is still only 24 and has clearly the potential to become one of the best players of the world, but to be included amongst them he has to prove his worth first on every level.
 
Aldo said:
Well done on comparing a creative attacking midfielder to a couple of strikers and comparing their end products.
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Not sure why people keep saying this. Hazard misses loads of chances, if his end product was better he could absolutely be up there with those players, not quite for goals maybe but certainly if you combined assists. We've also seen in recent years through the likes of Bale, Robben, and Neymar just how many goals players on the left or right of a front three can pump out if their end product is good enough, so it's not really that outlandish at all.
 
Aldo said:
Do you know why? Because he's not a f*cking striker and it's not his job to score. Bale, Robben and Neymar are brilliant shooters, Hazard is not, his strengths lie elsewhere, judge him on them.
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What? That's daft, he's a front three player, of course he should be judged on his shooting ability. It's ok to just completely ignore it because he's not good enough at it? That's some fecking weird logic right there. If his shooting was better he'd be getting more goals and he'd be a better player.
 
Sphaero said:
Is it really, though? There is no doubt that Hazard played three very good league seasons for Chelsea (being the best of the league last season), but we are talking about the absolute elite here and for that top performances in only the league are not enought, no matter how strong the league is.

In the end the most competive and meaningful competition in club football is still the Champions League. The biggest stage where the stakes are the highest.

I would not even disagree that Hazard has ablities/skills on a similar level as the likes of Neymar, Müller or Reus, but all the skills in the world don´t matter that much if you can´t use them well when it matters the most. To this day I wait for a crucial CL game of Chelsea, where he really steps up and makes the difference. A game like Reus had in 2014 in the return fixture vs. Real when he nearly carried a truly mediocre side to a sensation and outclassed everyone on the pitch (he had a few of those games but this was the one which stood out the most) or the many games where Müller was the difference maker for Bayern.

I find it hilarious that people in this thread get laughed at for suggesting that Müller is the better player of the two. Look at the list of his accomplishments at the age of 25 and he was vital in every single one of them for both club and country (and that as more than just as scorer, because his biggest contribution is arguably not even his end product but the space he creates for his teammates). Compared to that Hazard had so far an overall pretty underwhelming career with Belgium and vanished in too many crucial Chelsea games to put him in the same tier.

Hazard is still only 24 and has clearly the potential to become one of the best players of the world, but to be included amongst them he has to prove his worth first on every level.
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I agree. For 3 CL seasons in a row now Hazard has done nothing of note in it and his international career is far inferior to Muller or Neymar.
 
Cina said:
What? That's daft, he's a front three player, of course he should be judged on his shooting ability. It's ok to just completely ignore it because he's not good enough at it? That's some fecking weird logic right there. If his shooting was better he'd be getting more goals and he'd be a better player.
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Front three my f*cking arse. You'd be watching some completely different sport if you think Hazard and Neymar operate in the same area. Ask the nerds to give you heat maps or some other sh*t.

Also I didn't know shooting ability is all what defines an attacking player? Neymar's not as creative as Hazard either but let's forget that.
 
Aldo said:
Front three my f*cking arse. You'd be watching some completely different sport if you think Hazard and Neymar operate in the same area. Ask the nerds to give you heat maps or some other sh*t.

Also I didn't know shooting ability is all what defines an attacking player? Neymar's not as creative as Hazard either but let's forget that.
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Alright now, let's not pull things out of your arse. I never said they operated in the exact same area, I said they're both part of a front three, explain to me how that's not true? Hazard certainly tracks back more but he's still one of Chelsea's three most forward players, just like Neymar.

Did I say shooting ability is what defines an attacker? Nope, certainly it's important though. I wouldn't necessarily think it was important for Hazard if it wasn't a facet of his game, but it is, he gets into lots of goal-scoring opportunities and misses considerably more than others so absolutely he should be judged on it. He missed a sitter against Arsenal at the weekend, as I recall. Blasted it right over the bar.

Neymar's extremely creative, by the way, very unpredictable and capable of real moments of magic, maybe not as creative as Hazard but certainly there's not much of a gap. He's just far more direct.
 
Cina said:
Alright now, let's not pull things out of your arse. I never said they operated in the exact same area, I said they're both part of a front three, explain to me how that's not true? Hazard certainly tracks back more but he's still one of Chelsea's three most forward players, just like Neymar.

Did I say shooting ability is what defines an attacker? Nope, certainly it's important though. I wouldn't necessarily think it was important for Hazard if it wasn't a facet of his game, but it is, he gets into lots of goal-scoring opportunities and misses considerably more than others so absolutely he should be judged on it. He missed a sitter against Arsenal at the weekend, as I recall. Blasted it right over the bar.

Neymar's extremely creative, by the way, very unpredictable and capable of real moments of magic, maybe not as creative as Hazard but certainly there's not much of a gap. He's just far more direct.
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They are playing in two f*cking different formations for a start, two different systems, two managers with completely different philosophies. How can you even think of putting them on the same pedestal like that?

It's been said a thousand times before in this thread that once a better outlet while the other's more creative and uses his ability more to open up space for others. Fair enough if you want to call Neymar better but what's the point of comparing them on one's strength and not the other?

For all Neymar's numbers, anyone who's watched him over the last season will tell you he's still wasteful and misses loads of open chances which is crazy given he's still scored 40 goals, but he's no machine in front of goal let me tell you that. Watching Messi and Ronaldo has made people forget that missing a chance is a normal thing in this sport.
 
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