Healthcare

Didn't even have to read it, already knew the numbers. My wife has had papers published by the BMJ and she is contently studying, and sharing her thoughts with me :(

We could get into the adverse death rate in the NHS as well. Some estimates that number at 40,000 a year, which is shocking considering the population is a 5th of the size of America. The US system is flawed but it still offers very good healthcare for the majority. Deriding everything about US healthcare is grossly unfair. Given the choice of keeping things as is or switching to NHS coverage most Americans would stick with as is.

The US needs to figure out a way of spending the current amount per capita whilst ensuring the people without insurance get the same coverage people with insurance have. It should be doable by just reducing the admin costs and diverting those funds.

1. I think it's not comparing like-for-like. Youa re looking at excess deaths due to bad care in the UK versus excess death specifically via lack of insruance in th US - there will be more deaths caused via bad care even among insured people. For example: https://www.usnews.com/news/article...rs-are-third-leading-cause-of-death-in-the-us

2. It is apparent that a large part of the UK's numbers are a result of reduced funding:
Analysis of the data showed that between 2001 and 2010, deaths in England fell by an average of 0.77 per cent every year, but rose by an average of 0.87 per cent every year between 2011 and 2014.

The spending restraints were associated with 45,368 excess deaths between 2010 and 2014 compared with equivalent trends before 2010.

from: http://blogs.bmj.com/bmjopen/2017/1...ts-linked-to-120000-excess-deaths-in-england/
However per-capita healthcare spending is literally double in the US compared to UK, despite comparable/worse outcomes! As you point out, that is partly due to overheads, but the US' dysfunctional (inelastic, non-competitive) healthcare markets (hospitals and drug prices) is also a major reason for that.
 
Didn't even have to read it, already knew the numbers. My wife has had papers published by the BMJ and she is contently studying, and sharing her thoughts with me :(

We could get into the adverse death rate in the NHS as well. Some estimates that number at 40,000 a year, which is shocking considering the population is a 5th of the size of America. The US system is flawed but it still offers very good healthcare for the majority. Deriding everything about US healthcare is grossly unfair. Given the choice of keeping things as is or switching to NHS coverage most Americans would stick with as is.

The US needs to figure out a way of spending the current amount per capita whilst ensuring the people without insurance get the same coverage people with insurance have. It should be doable by just reducing the admin costs and diverting those funds.

You did need to read it. If you had perhaps you wouldn't be making snide remarks about the guardian.

Criticizing our healthcare system is more than fair. Americans spend way more on healthcare and have far worse health incomes than other first world countries. Our system isn't something that can be patched up. We've tried that for decades with CHIP and ACA and Cobra and Medicaid and the VA and HSA and flex accounts and the donut hole. All we've got is a patchwork system full of paperwork and administration costs with, and here's the most important part, bad health outcomes. People don't want to use spreadsheets to pick a plan and cross reference four different websites to determine whether their provider is in network and they don't want to fill out paperwork at every office and they don't want to spend hours navigating a phone tree to talk to someone who says "I'm sorry, there's nothing I can do".

They want to see a doctor when they are sick and get the care they need. This cannot be accomplished within the current framework. Only a single payer system provides this. And the best part is that we don't have to speculate. We have plenty of real world examples of other countries who have made this work.
 
They want to see a doctor when they are sick and get the care they need. This cannot be accomplished within the current framework. Only a single payer system provides this. And the best part is that we don't have to speculate. We have plenty of real world examples of other countries who have made this work.
Amen.
 
However per-capita healthcare spending is literally double in the US compared to UK, despite comparable/worse outcomes! As you point out, that is partly due to overheads, but the US' dysfunctional (inelastic, non-competitive) healthcare markets (hospitals and drug prices) is also a major reason for that.

I have said a few times the NHS system has a funding problem while the US funding has a system problem. The NHS is a fine institution and has many strengths. The US system is very flawed in many respects but the healthcare can be outstanding if you have insurance. Its not a clear cut case of one is better than the other.
 
They want to see a doctor when they are sick and get the care they need. This cannot be accomplished within the current framework. Only a single payer system provides this. And the best part is that we don't have to speculate. We have plenty of real world examples of other countries who have made this work.

I am in favor of a single payer system but its a very tough sell in the US. I have just done our 2017 tax returns and 23% of our income went in tax, SS and medical costs. I ran our earnings through a UK calculator and we would have paid 40% in tax and SS in the UK.

If you poll people in the US and say do I want more social equality and universal healthcare they will obviously say hell yes. If you then say to the middle class majority are you OK with a 10-15% tax hike to pay for it the answer would be feck no.
 
I am in favor of a single payer system but its a very tough sell in the US. I have just done our 2017 tax returns and 23% of our income went in tax, SS and medical costs. I ran our earnings through a UK calculator and we would have paid 40% in tax and SS in the UK.

If you poll people in the US and say do I want more social equality and universal healthcare they will obviously say hell yes. If you then say to the middle class majority are you OK with a 10-15% tax hike to pay for it the answer would be feck no.

That's a very dishonest way of framing it. Americans currently spent 10% of their income on health insurance. If you asked them "do you want to pay 0-5% more in taxes in order to get good healthcare for you and your loved ones for the rest of their lives", the answer would be yes. And if you then told them that the US pays triple the admin costs of healthcare that Canada does and with universal healthcare they could realize those savings, the answer would be feck yes.


And it's not a tough sell, that's another great thing. A majority already supports single payer and that's without either party actively supporting it.

http://thehill.com/policy/healthcare/351928-poll-majority-supports-single-payer-healthcare

An extremely high percentage of people is dissatisfied with the cost of healthcare and has been since polling began.

http://news.gallup.com/poll/4708/healthcare-system.aspx




Single payer is an easy argument to make and it's the right thing to do.
 
. And if you then told them that the US pays triple the admin costs of healthcare that Canada does and with universal healthcare they could realize those savings, the answer would be feck yes.
.

Its actually far worse than that. The admin costs numbers are just hospital/doctor admin costs. They do not include insurance company admin and skim off costs. I have seen estimates as high as 46% of healthcare dollars going to the admin costs.

Polling questions like would you like a single payer system and are you happy with healthcare costs will get obvious results. Everyone knows healthcare has issues and costs are rising. Getting from A to Z is going to be difficult though. Many Americans have a deep distrust in all things government and they hate paying taxes even though taxation is very low in the US.

Maybe this should be moved to a healthcare thread?
 
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Its actually far worse than that. The admin costs numbers are just hospital/doctor admin costs. They do not include insurance company admin and skim off costs. I have seen estimates as high as 46% of healthcare dollars going to the admin costs.

Polling questions like would you like a single payer system and are you happy with healthcare costs will get obvious results. Everyone knows healthcare has issues and costs are rising. Getting from A to Z is going to be difficult though. Many Americans have a deep distrust in all things government and they hate paying taxes even though taxation is very low in the US.

Maybe this should be moved to a healthcare thread?

That's the tough situation Americans find themselves in. We currently spend far more per person in healthcare costs relative to other countries with a similar life expectancy, and yet people still have to pay insurance premiums AND there are still many millions who don't have coverage for whatever reasons.
 
Ok, so this should probably have its own thread.
 
OK a lot of back and forth on what is wrong and some very generic solutions like single payer BUT what does that really mean for the US. Its hard to go from one extreme to another over night but lets presume we can.

Here is what I would do if I was the Supreme Leader:

  • Structure/Admin: Create a federally owned insurance company. Maybe merge the biggest two or three companies and get the likes of Bezos and Buffet to restructure them and build the IT.
  • Funding: The US is a awash with health care dollars its just needs channeling into one administrator. All medicare, medicaid, company premiums and individual premiums matching the 2017 amounts should be paid into the central administrator. We can work on contributions in future years but as a starting point just redirect the existing funds.
  • Healthcare Costs: Two federally appointed committees for medical procedures and pharmaceutical/Ancillary pricing. Set the amount doctors and hospitals can receive for services with adjustments for regional costs.
  • Point of Service: Income based co-pays to ensure the system is not abused. Something like $10/$20/$30 for a doctors appointment, $25/$50/$100 for ER based on income. Unemployed and very poor would be exempt.
  • Cost Control: Setting the procedure and drug costs will keep things in check. To push long term costs down incentivize universities to create more nursing and medical courses. Give grants to people enrolled in these areas as well. More nurses, doctors and medical professional will help keep long term costs down.

There you go problem solved :). I feel a single payer does need copays to help curb abuse and raise some revenue based on income at POS. The NHS has always been terribly burdened by people that misuse doctors and ER services.
 
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One argument I always hear against single payer in the US is that the size of the country would make it cumbersome and that no european country is our geographic and population equal, so there is no true comparison.

To me though, if you look at Western Europe as a country made up of states, like us...

What if the single payer system was a collection of 50 state systems (with territories administered federally) with a national reciprocity agreement?

Administration could be done at the state level, giving an easy point of reference as your average state = your average European country, AND with the added benefit of it appeasing those who fear the “Big federal government”.
 
That would probably be easier to implement for the US. There are already several large insurance companies at State and Regional level. Nationalize them and let a Federal administrative organization make the rules and distribute the money to the regions. The one thing is for sure there is more than enough money in the healthcare system to provide every American with exceptional healthcare with limited out of pocket expenses.
 
The UK Healthcare system also needs a few tweaks IMO. Even 20 years ago when my wife worked in the NHS there were areas that needed improving. One thing I always thought needed addressing is people using Doctor and ER/A&A resources that really didn't need to. I am talking about people that go to the doctor with a minor cold or folks that use ER when all they really need is a band aid. Maybe introducing small copays for some services will make people think twice before going to the ER. Hopefully he it would reduce the burden in terms of patients and the money raised could be used to improve services.
 
Having worked for the NHS, and my wife being a nurse, I can only despair at the sheer red tape and wastage that's crippling it. Sure, blame the Tories all you like, but the NHS management and procurement are an utter disgrace. Money being thrown around willy nilly and suppliers taking the piss. My wife is bombarded with sales reps offering all sorts of crazy incentives (not just free branded pens) to try out different brands of wound care products on her patients.

I'll reduce it to this: How does a packet of Ibuprofen cost 35p at Tesco yet the very same product costs £4 for the NHS to procure???
Times that insane discrepancy by thousands of products that make up the NHS Supply Chain and it makes you really wonder whats going on.
 
The UK Healthcare system also needs a few tweaks IMO. Even 20 years ago when my wife worked in the NHS there were areas that needed improving. One thing I always thought needed addressing is people using Doctor and ER/A&A resources that really didn't need to. I am talking about people that go to the doctor with a minor cold or folks that use ER when all they really need is a band aid. Maybe introducing small copays for some services will make people think twice before going to the ER. Hopefully he it would reduce the burden in terms of patients and the money raised could be used to improve services.

The administrative systems that would need to be put in place for that to happen would be costly, and the overall money raised would be negligible. Germany trialed something similar a while back and it was a failure.

The NHS needs more money. We spend 9.8% of our GDP on our healthcare system, which is below France and Germany levels of around 11%. Whilst the Tories like to claim they are investing record amounts in the NHS (disingenuous twats they are), the rise in funding per year is well below what is needed and well below what the NHS has historically had.

Longer term there needs to be an NHS tax or something along those lines. Everyone I talk to is more than happy to pay more income tax if they know it will go to fund the NHS. Free healthcare for all, regardless of ability to pay, is an absolute human right. Quite how anybody would want a US system is beyond me.

There's a good podcast on this issue though. Quite long but worth a listen.

http://cheerful.libsyn.com/episode-18-tackling-the-nhs-crisis-the-1-solution
 
Free healthcare for all, regardless of ability to pay, is an absolute human right.

Not to pick on you specifically, but just because I know many people share this feeling. This is entirely feasible in developed countries, and desirable in general. But developing countries where GDP per capita is 10-30% the level of Western Europe / US simply cannot afford similar levels of spend. They can spend the same proportion but the health outcome is much different.

I just point this out because I'm from a developing country originally and the political speech is the same. But that which you cannot afford, cannot be a right such as free speech, or the vote, or fair trial, which are matters of system more than spend.
 
OK a lot of back and forth on what is wrong and some very generic solutions like single payer BUT what does that really mean for the US. Its hard to go from one extreme to another over night but lets presume we can.

Here is what I would do if I was the Supreme Leader:

  • Structure/Admin: Create a federally owned insurance company. Maybe merge the biggest two or three companies and get the likes of Bezos and Buffet to restructure them and build the IT.
  • Funding: The US is a awash with health care dollars its just needs channeling into one administrator. All medicare, medicaid, company premiums and individual premiums matching the 2017 amounts should be paid into the central administrator. We can work on contributions in future years but as a starting point just redirect the existing funds.
  • Healthcare Costs: Two federally appointed committees for medical procedures and pharmaceutical/Ancillary pricing. Set the amount doctors and hospitals can receive for services with adjustments for regional costs.
  • Point of Service: Income based co-pays to ensure the system is not abused. Something like $10/$20/$30 for a doctors appointment, $25/$50/$100 for ER based on income. Unemployed and very poor would be exempt.
  • Cost Control: Setting the procedure and drug costs will keep things in check. To push long term costs down incentivize universities to create more nursing and medical courses. Give grants to people enrolled in these areas as well. More nurses, doctors and medical professional will help keep long term costs down.

There you go problem solved :). I feel a single payer does need copays to help curb abuse and raise some revenue based on income at POS. The NHS has always been terribly burdened by people that misuse doctors and ER services.

Agree with the majority of what you say. I've previously mentioned excesses to help curb abuse and raise income. The issue is selling this in the UK as it's become such as political football that the second top up fee's get mentioned you get a flurry of abuse from the opposite political party screaming that the in power party is ending the "free at the point of use" mirage. Of course this mantra is complete nonsense already considering every single time I visit the doctor, dentist, optician or hospital I end up with a bill. At 30 years old I currently spend a £300-500 per year on medication, checkups and procedures etc that if went unspent would have a material detriment to my health.

Until the aforementioned viewpoint changes and people wake up to the fact that the NHS charges people every day; I'd propose a tweak to your proposal. A reverse excess. A solution whereby people get a £100 rebate at the end of the year if they did not use the NHS outside of their long term requirements. This would also satisfy the group of people that would say a £50 excess would cause the poorest in society to not go to the hospital if something was wrong. The initial cost would seem to be huge (£66m * £50 = £3.3b); but firstly a large proportion of the population will require healthcare and so will lose their payment and secondly in the scheme of things that amount is peanuts in respect of the overall budget if it results in a change of culture.
Having worked for the NHS, and my wife being a nurse, I can only despair at the sheer red tape and wastage that's crippling it. Sure, blame the Tories all you like, but the NHS management and procurement are an utter disgrace. Money being thrown around willy nilly and suppliers taking the piss. My wife is bombarded with sales reps offering all sorts of crazy incentives (not just free branded pens) to try out different brands of wound care products on her patients.

I'll reduce it to this: How does a packet of Ibuprofen cost 35p at Tesco yet the very same product costs £4 for the NHS to procure???
Times that insane discrepancy by thousands of products that make up the NHS Supply Chain and it makes you really wonder whats going on.

The problem is that there is no incentive for the NHS to procure things competitively. There is no ability to give bonuses to senior managers who effectively modernise and introduce cost saving measures into their hospital. There is no long term carrot offered for bosses to look long term, rather than short term. There is no "profit-share" facility whereby successful hospitals can split the fruits of their labour with their best doctors & nurses and give them bonuses or salary increases. Because of this lack of incentivisation there is no reason to operate in an efficient manner. As a manager why would I spend hours and hours tendering to several different companies for dozens of different purchases, when my current supplier gives me a spa & golf weekend for two at the end of each year? Why would I risk investing in the infrastructure of my hospital for long term benefit, when it's a lot easier to put those funds into the short term easing of pressure employing extra agency staff?

When I joined my company the procurement of several items were left in the hands of our accounts department who had absolutely no incentive in procuring items competitively. They were all salaried members of staff who did not have a stake in the business. One of these items was stationary which our annual spend was £26k. We reduced this overnight by 22.5% by speaking to a few different suppliers. At the end of the task it became apparent that one of the main reasons we were spending £6k too much on stationary per annum was down to one reason: we were buying in very small quantities on a twice weekly basis because our current supplier offered a "free" packet of chocolate biscuits with each delivery. We were literally paying £6,000 per annum for £150 worth of McVitie's digestives...

Naturally both myself and my buyer had an financial incentive to procure this product more competitively; whereas our accounts department saw free biscuits on one hand and diddly squat on the other and went with the biscuits. This mentality is unfortunately endemic in the public service and charitable sector. A lack of incentive for everyone leads to a laissez faire attitude when it comes to efficiency.

This isn't having a go at these sectors, it's human nature. Why do a lot of us go through the grief every single year of comparing car insurance, home insurance, electricity, gas, broadband, TV and every other bill that we want to pay as little as possible? Because our time and effort is rewarded with clear financial gain. Lets be honest with ourselves - if we didn't get these savings in our pockets every year, would we still compare? Of course not.

If the same time and effort were rewarded in the public sector with financial gain as it is with comparing car insurance then everybody would win. The managers would win as they'd be paid more, the patients would win because the hospitals would be more efficient and the best doctors and nurses would win because they'd be paid more than their less able and hardworking colleagues.

Staff incentivisation is the only way to improve our NHS.
 
OK a lot of back and forth on what is wrong and some very generic solutions like single payer BUT what does that really mean for the US. Its hard to go from one extreme to another over night but lets presume we can.

Here is what I would do if I was the Supreme Leader:

  • Structure/Admin: Create a federally owned insurance company. Maybe merge the biggest two or three companies and get the likes of Bezos and Buffet to restructure them and build the IT.
  • Funding: The US is a awash with health care dollars its just needs channeling into one administrator. All medicare, medicaid, company premiums and individual premiums matching the 2017 amounts should be paid into the central administrator. We can work on contributions in future years but as a starting point just redirect the existing funds.
  • Healthcare Costs: Two federally appointed committees for medical procedures and pharmaceutical/Ancillary pricing. Set the amount doctors and hospitals can receive for services with adjustments for regional costs.
  • Point of Service: Income based co-pays to ensure the system is not abused. Something like $10/$20/$30 for a doctors appointment, $25/$50/$100 for ER based on income. Unemployed and very poor would be exempt.
  • Cost Control: Setting the procedure and drug costs will keep things in check. To push long term costs down incentivize universities to create more nursing and medical courses. Give grants to people enrolled in these areas as well. More nurses, doctors and medical professional will help keep long term costs down.

There you go problem solved :). I feel a single payer does need copays to help curb abuse and raise some revenue based on income at POS. The NHS has always been terribly burdened by people that misuse doctors and ER services.

my friends and i cant wait for single payer so we can abuse the system and get elective chemo
 
Free healthcare for all, regardless of ability to pay, is an absolute human right. Quite how anybody would want a US system is beyond me.

I don’t disagree with any of that TBH. However it is often easier said than done for various reasons. I will stick to the US for now because they can obviously afford UHC.

Although most working and middle class people around the world have similar aspirations there are subtle difference between countries. Americans do think differently to Europeans when it comes to taxation and government interference. Hardly surprising because that was the catalyst that spurned the nation. Americans are also not in favor of entitlement programs as a rule.

The current US healthcare system is failing 10-20% of the population it is also working fairly well for the majority. As a rule the healthcare facilities and services are superior to the NHS. Dealing with insurance premiums, co-pays, paper work and bills is a pain and a terrible burden at times. However for the most part the actual healthcare it terms of personal choice and accessibility is better than the UK.

My wife has worked close to two decades in each system. Many things about the US system frustrate her and we both believe healthcare should be available to all citizens. We did ask have a discussion about healthcare over dinner last night and I asked her would she rather have the NHS or the insurance and care she has now and her answer was the healthcare we get now is much better. We are lucky enough to get employer issuance though.

So that goes to your post above. The majority of Americans would choose the current US system over the NHS. Now if the US could divert the current funds into a single payer system and retain the current infrastructure and level of services whilst covering all citizens then the desire to change would be different.
 
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I don’t disagree with any of that TBH. However it is often easier said than done for various reasons. I will stick to the US for now because they can obviously afford UHC.

Although most working and middle class people around the world have similar aspirations there are subtle difference between countries. Americans do think differently to Europeans when it comes to taxation and government interference. Hardly surprising because that was the catalyst that spurned the nation. Americans are also not in favor of entitlement programs as a rule.

The current US healthcare system is failing 10-20% of the population it is also working fairly well for the majority. As a rule the healthcare facilities and services are superior to the NHS. Dealing with insurance premiums, co-pays, paper work and bills is a pain and a terrible burden at times. However for the most part the actual healthcare it terms of personal choice and accessibility is better than the UK.

My wife has worked close to two decades in each system. Many things about the US system frustrate her and we both believe healthcare should be available to all citizens. We did ask have a discussion about healthcare over dinner last night and I asked her would she rather have the NHS or the insurance and care she has now and her answer was the healthcare we get now is much better. We are lucky enough to get employer issuance though.

So that goes to your post above. The majority of Americans would choose the current US system over the NHS. Now if the US could divert the current funds into a single payer system and retain the current infrastructure and level of services whilst covering all citizens then the desire to change would be different.

Much in the US would depend on how single payer would be funded. Obviously raising taxes on the middle class would not fly since few politicians are willing to run for office on such a platform. Sanders seems to want to fund it through a combination of raising taxes on incomes about 250k, capital gains, limiting deductions for the wealthy, and employer funded premiums. That's going to be quite a hard sell unless the debate is started now - when there is no election.
 
Much in the US would depend on how single payer would be funded. Obviously raising taxes on the middle class would not fly since few politicians are willing to run for office on such a platform. Sanders seems to want to fund it through a combination of raising taxes on incomes about 250k, capital gains, limiting deductions for the wealthy, and employer funded premiums. That's going to be quite a hard sell unless the debate is started now - when there is no election.

Let’s say all the current Medicaid, Medicare, insurance premiums and copays were diverted to a single payer. That amount to around $10,000 per capita or $3.3 Trillion. That is assuming the new system would have 40% admin costs and waste, which it would not. One trillion is already going to Medicare and Medicaid.

The rest of the money would need to come from taxation. It would be much like SS/MC deduction so the company pay 50%. So we would need to raise $6,000 per citizen in taxation, 50% of which the employer would pay. I think if you said to someone on average earnings your taxes will go up $3,000** BUT you will no longer pay insurance premiums, co-pays, deductibles, face bankruptcy or do paper work or get bills through the mail…..there would be widespread public support.

IMO any UHC should be funded solely by a UHC tax that is a line item on your pay checks. It should be sacred and not subject to future tax cuts or attacks on entitlements.



** Obviously some people would pay more than $3,000 extra tax, and some people less. If it was levied as a 6% UHC tax on all earnings above $20,000 it would have limited impact on the very poor. People like me would pay more but that is no big deal....I pay more than low income folks for the military as well
 
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Let’s say all the current Medicaid, Medicare, insurance premiums and copays were diverted to a single payer. That amount to around $10,000 per capita or $3.3 Trillion. That is assuming the new system would have 40% admin costs and waste, which it would not. One trillion is already going to Medicare and Medicaid.

The rest of the money would need to come from taxation. It would be much like SS/MC deduction so the company pay 50%. So we would need to raise $6,000 per citizen in taxation, 50% of which the employer would pay. I think if you said to someone on average earnings your taxes will go up $3,000** BUT you will no longer pay insurance premiums, co-pays, deductibles, face bankruptcy or do paper work or get bills through the mail…..there would be widespread public support.

IMO any UHC should be funded solely by a UHC tax that is a line item on your pay checks. It should be sacred and not subject to future tax cuts or attacks on entitlements.



** Obviously some people would pay more than $3,000 extra tax, and some people less. If it was levied as a 6% UHC tax on all earnings above $20,000 it would have limited impact on the very poor. People like me would pay more but that is no big deal....I pay more than low income folks for the military as well

The 10,000 per capita number is around what is being paid now. Sanders is suggesting he can reduce that number significantly to something more in the 7% or lower range by switching over to single payer.

https://berniesanders.com/issues/medicare-for-all/
 
The 10,000 per capita number is around what is being paid now. Sanders is suggesting he can reduce that number significantly to something more in the 7% or lower range by switching over to single payer.

https://berniesanders.com/issues/medicare-for-all/


My numbers use $10,000 per capita. I think it could easily be reduced by 25-30% with a single payer system. The savings in doctors offices alone would be insane. Many have 4-6 people working in billing and use an external collection company. With a single payer it would be one person maximum.
 
Agree with the majority of what you say. I've previously mentioned excesses to help curb abuse and raise income. The issue is selling this in the UK as it's become such as political football that the second top up fee's get mentioned you get a flurry of abuse from the opposite political party screaming that the in power party is ending the "free at the point of use" mirage. Of course this mantra is complete nonsense already considering every single time I visit the doctor, dentist, optician or hospital I end up with a bill. At 30 years old I currently spend a £300-500 per year on medication, checkups and procedures etc that if went unspent would have a material detriment to my health.

Until the aforementioned viewpoint changes and people wake up to the fact that the NHS charges people every day; I'd propose a tweak to your proposal. A reverse excess. A solution whereby people get a £100 rebate at the end of the year if they did not use the NHS outside of their long term requirements. This would also satisfy the group of people that would say a £50 excess would cause the poorest in society to not go to the hospital if something was wrong. The initial cost would seem to be huge (£66m * £50 = £3.3b); but firstly a large proportion of the population will require healthcare and so will lose their payment and secondly in the scheme of things that amount is peanuts in respect of the overall budget if it results in a change of culture.


The problem is that there is no incentive for the NHS to procure things competitively. There is no ability to give bonuses to senior managers who effectively modernise and introduce cost saving measures into their hospital. There is no long term carrot offered for bosses to look long term, rather than short term. There is no "profit-share" facility whereby successful hospitals can split the fruits of their labour with their best doctors & nurses and give them bonuses or salary increases. Because of this lack of incentivisation there is no reason to operate in an efficient manner. As a manager why would I spend hours and hours tendering to several different companies for dozens of different purchases, when my current supplier gives me a spa & golf weekend for two at the end of each year? Why would I risk investing in the infrastructure of my hospital for long term benefit, when it's a lot easier to put those funds into the short term easing of pressure employing extra agency staff?

When I joined my company the procurement of several items were left in the hands of our accounts department who had absolutely no incentive in procuring items competitively. They were all salaried members of staff who did not have a stake in the business. One of these items was stationary which our annual spend was £26k. We reduced this overnight by 22.5% by speaking to a few different suppliers. At the end of the task it became apparent that one of the main reasons we were spending £6k too much on stationary per annum was down to one reason: we were buying in very small quantities on a twice weekly basis because our current supplier offered a "free" packet of chocolate biscuits with each delivery. We were literally paying £6,000 per annum for £150 worth of McVitie's digestives...

Naturally both myself and my buyer had an financial incentive to procure this product more competitively; whereas our accounts department saw free biscuits on one hand and diddly squat on the other and went with the biscuits. This mentality is unfortunately endemic in the public service and charitable sector. A lack of incentive for everyone leads to a laissez faire attitude when it comes to efficiency.

This isn't having a go at these sectors, it's human nature. Why do a lot of us go through the grief every single year of comparing car insurance, home insurance, electricity, gas, broadband, TV and every other bill that we want to pay as little as possible? Because our time and effort is rewarded with clear financial gain. Lets be honest with ourselves - if we didn't get these savings in our pockets every year, would we still compare? Of course not.

If the same time and effort were rewarded in the public sector with financial gain as it is with comparing car insurance then everybody would win. The managers would win as they'd be paid more, the patients would win because the hospitals would be more efficient and the best doctors and nurses would win because they'd be paid more than their less able and hardworking colleagues.

Staff incentivisation is the only way to improve our NHS.

But when it comes to incentives, how do you class who's doing 'better'? In certain sectors it's obvious; in a private business if you're making your company more money then you're doing a good job. That isn't necessarily the case for healthcare. Do we class it as the GP's who are seeing the most patients? Because if so, we're arguably encouraging them to cut corners. Do we class it as the hospitals who are having to deal with the least patients? Because, again - that's potentially outside of their control.

Again - this is operating on the false presumption that the private sector is more efficient. It's not always, or even often, the case. Many private businesses will cut corners in a way healthcare can't really afford to, whether it comes to cutting staff, wanting to cut regulations etc.

A reverse excess seems like a dangerous idea as well in that it basically encourages people to stay away when they might actually have something seriously wrong with them. I've seen cases of people too proud to go to the doctors for a minor illness/problem, only for that problem to persist, and then reveal itself to be something much, much more serious.
 
The UK Healthcare system also needs a few tweaks IMO. Even 20 years ago when my wife worked in the NHS there were areas that needed improving. One thing I always thought needed addressing is people using Doctor and ER/A&A resources that really didn't need to. I am talking about people that go to the doctor with a minor cold or folks that use ER when all they really need is a band aid. Maybe introducing small copays for some services will make people think twice before going to the ER. Hopefully he it would reduce the burden in terms of patients and the money raised could be used to improve services.

Problem this is pretty much disproportionately punishes poor people using the service when they don't need to, and who potentially haven't been educated to the same level as others as to when they do/don't need the service. A well-off person who abuses the system can then afford to do this easily; a poorer person can't.
 
My numbers use $10,000 per capita. I think it could easily be reduced by 25-30% with a single payer system. The savings in doctors offices alone would be insane. Many have 4-6 people working in billing and use an external collection company. With a single payer it would be one person maximum.

Which would be a massive savings that would rival the cost of most of the defense budget.
 
Speaking for someone who works as a doc in the NHS, know that on a selfish basis, the American way is far more appealing in terms of money. With that being said, morally I hate the American way they go about the health system.

Unfortunately the way the NHS is going, it's going to a) drive British doctors abroad that will inevitably cause option b, b) catalyse the inevitable privitization of our health system.

Everyone moans about option a saying that we're already low on doctors and that us going abroad due to better money and humane working hours is selfish, the real issue is the bedding situation. Build more wards/hospitals which will mean more appealing jobs for doctors which will mean a safer NHS. That's the crux of it.
 
Speaking for someone who works as a doc in the NHS, know that on a selfish basis, the American way is far more appealing in terms of money. With that being said, morally I hate the American way they go about the health system.

Unfortunately the way the NHS is going, it's going to a) drive British doctors abroad that will inevitably cause option b, b) catalyse the inevitable privitization of our health system.

Everyone moans about option a saying that we're already low on doctors and that us going abroad due to better money and humane working hours is selfish, the real issue is the bedding situation. Build more wards/hospitals which will mean more appealing jobs for doctors which will mean a safer NHS. That's the crux of it.

The American system is definitely better in terms of facilities and financial rewards for those that work in it. That does lead to a lot of nurses and doctors that are more motivated by money than good old fashioned patient care and helping others.
 
Speaking for someone who works as a doc in the NHS, know that on a selfish basis, the American way is far more appealing in terms of money. With that being said, morally I hate the American way they go about the health system.

Unfortunately the way the NHS is going, it's going to a) drive British doctors abroad that will inevitably cause option b, b) catalyse the inevitable privitization of our health system.

Everyone moans about option a saying that we're already low on doctors and that us going abroad due to better money and humane working hours is selfish, the real issue is the bedding situation. Build more wards/hospitals which will mean more appealing jobs for doctors which will mean a safer NHS. That's the crux of it.

I've never really understood that argument considering the kind of society we live in. For some reason it's seen okay to apply different standards to the NHS as it is to other professions.

If I'm a private sector profession where I get educated in Britain and then go abroad to succeed elsewhere for more money then most people will just regard that as me doing well for myself and taking the most natural route; when a highly-trained doctor does the same and moves to Australia or elsewhere there's this sense of moral outrage that seems to emerge that's incredibly hypocritical and unjustified.

Ultimately if we're losing out on doctors to other countries then we need to pay them more, or offer them more incentives to remain here. Governments do this in other sectors - their arguments for lowering tax always come to the crux that in order to encourage businesses to remain in the country, they have to have incentives to stay. The same principle surely has to be applied to those within the health profession.
 
If the US ever switches over to single payer, it will likely be more in sync with the Canadian system (government funded but with private practitioners whose profits are regulated) as opposed to a British system.
 
If the US ever switches over to single payer, it will likely be more in sync with the Canadian system (government funded but with private practitioners whose profits are regulated) as opposed to a British system.


Regulation will occur by federal boards/committees that mandate the billing rates.
 
The American system is definitely better in terms of facilities and financial rewards for those that work in it. That does lead to a lot of nurses and doctors that are more motivated by money than good old fashioned patient care and helping others.

100%. For example, I'm two years into my career as a doctor and I'm already organising my 4-6 month stint of working in Australia to test the waters for 2020.

I went into this career because I like to make a difference - but the money we get at this stage is fecking awful for the hours I put in, or the social activities I have to miss.

I've never really understood that argument considering the kind of society we live in. For some reason it's seen okay to apply different standards to the NHS as it is to other professions.

If I'm a private sector profession where I get educated in Britain and then go abroad to succeed elsewhere for more money then most people will just regard that as me doing well for myself and taking the most natural route; when a highly-trained doctor does the same and moves to Australia or elsewhere there's this sense of moral outrage that seems to emerge that's incredibly hypocritical and unjustified.

Ultimately if we're losing out on doctors to other countries then we need to pay them more, or offer them more incentives to remain here. Governments do this in other sectors - their arguments for lowering tax always come to the crux that in order to encourage businesses to remain in the country, they have to have incentives to stay. The same principle surely has to be applied to those within the health profession.

I agree with you, but that's the stick we get. At any point we mention the idea of moving abroad, we get slayed for being unfaithful to the system and the education we've been given to become a doctor in this country.

I'm not going to moan over the top about the salary, because I appreciate that I may be getting more than the norm, but when I work 55-65 hours a week on a regular basis then I'm sorry and just expect the moan.
 
I've never really understood that argument considering the kind of society we live in. For some reason it's seen okay to apply different standards to the NHS as it is to other professions.

If I'm a private sector profession where I get educated in Britain and then go abroad to succeed elsewhere for more money then most people will just regard that as me doing well for myself and taking the most natural route; when a highly-trained doctor does the same and moves to Australia or elsewhere there's this sense of moral outrage that seems to emerge that's incredibly hypocritical and unjustified.

Ultimately if we're losing out on doctors to other countries then we need to pay them more, or offer them more incentives to remain here. Governments do this in other sectors - their arguments for lowering tax always come to the crux that in order to encourage businesses to remain in the country, they have to have incentives to stay. The same principle surely has to be applied to those within the health profession.
From the flip side of that point of view... One thing that I always chuckle about when debating a single payer system here is when people say that American doctors will go somewhere else if they end up getting paid less in a universalized system...

Go to where? The rest of the developed world already does it.
 
From the flip side of that point of view... One thing that I always chuckle about when debating a single payer system here is when people say that American doctors will go somewhere else if they end up getting paid less in a universalized system...

Go to where? The rest of the developed world already does it.

It is not just the pay that is better in the US. The taxation and cost of living is also favorable.
 
From the flip side of that point of view... One thing that I always chuckle about when debating a single payer system here is when people say that American doctors will go somewhere else if they end up getting paid less in a universalized system...

Go to where? The rest of the developed world already does it.

Also the sheer size of the US (which is used to attack single-payer) can also be used about this comparison - the US will produce more doctors than large chunks of the western world.

It is also why I think there must be a national single-payer rather than statewide, since the efficiencies via overhead reduction and importantly via bulk purchase of medicines work better at larger scales.
Politically what I see as feasible is a public option bill (if 2020 goes to plan), allowing multple states to cobble up their plans together and make some savings that way. You could see a west-coast and a NE bloc have their own systems. IIRC, this is how Canada eventually got their single-payer over the whole country.
 
I think the easiest way of pushing UHC forward in the US is an expansion of Medicaid. Change the law so doctors and hospitals have to accept medicaid patients. Then allow companies and individuals to sign up to Medicaid like just like they do for insurance. If an individual signs up make their employer contribute as well. Going down that path really wouldn't need a ton of extra infrastructure.