How does Guardiola the manager compare to Johan Cruyff?

[ArmaDino]

Bayern is the only team he managed that was already a dominant force before he got them.

The Barcelona team he inherited wasn't really a dominant force in Spain when he got the job, and they were just coming from an awful season as well. He also didn't just inherit the team and used it as it's. He changed a lot of things regarding the team dynamics and tactical set up, most notably in the midfield where he shifted the likes of Deco and Toure out to give a more central role to Xavi and Ineista. Messi also improved massively thanks to Guardiola, he wasn't the best player in the world before Guardiola, and he's the one who put him as a false nine which made most of his abilities explode. He won 6 trophies in his first season, coming from the back of a trophyless season the previous year. How is that normal ?

If it was the players only, why the only manager after him to manage to win a treble was Enrique ? Barcelona had a lot of managerial failures post Guardiola and bar Enrique no one has ever managed to achieve quarter of what he achieved in his 4 years there, despite having the same set of players.

And Spain domination was thanks to Guardiola's Barca domination. Just a normal follow up.

We can talk about City financials as much as we want, but the reality is this level of domination over domestic trophies in England is unprecedented and City spent a lot of money on the team even before Pep came and they still never looked as dominant as they're now under him.

Pep's style of play is very expensive, and requires a lot of quality and many players able to implement his ideas and training methods, that's very much true, but if you have a very good team and wants it to reach the next level, to start dominating everything, Pep is the perfect manager for this. His style of play is unmatched when implemented right and he unlocks the full potential of his players to reach their peak. He's the ultimate winner.

Sure he's not suited for teams in a rebuilding process or ones who can't afford his requirements, but Guardiola isn't really in need of this. He doesn't have to prove himself by managing a team in free fall. He has already built his name and everyone knows which teams he's perfect for and which job he can do and to what level of success.

Klopp is a great manager but he's a different category from Guardiola and suits different teams than him. I see no issue in this.

You are underselling Barca and Rijkaard there mate. When Rijkaard took over, Barca was in a complete mess and nowhere near European glory. Rijkaard transformed them into one of the most dominant sides in Europe on par with Ancelotti's Milan. They won everything there is to win prior to Pep arriving there. They literrally won the CL 3 years prior.

The season Pep took over Barca was knocked out of the CL by our 2008 squad. And even then we had to basically play 4-6-0 away from home, and park the bus after we knicked a goal against them at OT and hold on to the result. And that was our greatest team probably on par with the treble side.

 

[adexkola]

You are underselling Barca and Rijkaard there mate. When Rijkaard took over, Barca was in a complete mess and nowhere near European glory. Rijkaard transformed them into one of the most dominant sides in Europe on par with Ancelotti's Milan. They won everything there is to win prior to Pep arriving there. They literrally won the CL 3 years prior.

The season Pep took over Barca was knocked out of the CL by our 2008 squad. And even then we had to basically play 4-6-0 away from home, and park the bus after we knicked a goal against them at OT and hold on to the result. And that was our greatest team probably on par with the treble side.

Rijkaard's side were not one of the most dominant sides in Europe on par with Ancelotti's Milan. I recall them being knocked out by Jose's Chelsea in 2005 and Benitez in 2007 (was that the golf club game??). Madrid who were the Arsenal of Europe before Arsenal (round 16 then bye bye) won league titles ahead of them in 06-07 and 07-08...

 

[Hammondo]

Very good point!

Yes

The real question is, is baldness a coaching aid???

Saves time in the morning.

 

[Hammondo]

Cruyff put Barcelona in the map, i think that's as valuable as what Pep did with Barca and the 'sextete'.
Before Cruyff arrived at Barca as coach, Real Madrid had 26 league titles and Barcelona only 10, and nowhere near to close to challenge for La Liga.

I think you can't compare Pep to old managers considering the financial gap between top teams and the rest wasn't as big as today, as a matter of fact you can't compare modern managers to old managers because of that exact reason.

Most modern managers in big clubs now are going to look better than old managers in terms of winrate and trophies given how huge is the gap between top teams and mid/lower table clubs now because of finances and Bosman law.

In the PL teams are generally way richer now, it's one of the reasons why PL players are so expensive, because the poorer teams don't need the money the same. They are buying foreign players because of how rich the PL teams are by comparison.

 

[Hammondo]

None of the doubters have any relevancy in football. This debate on whether Pep's credentials are legit would be seen as idiotic in any changing room or club board room. I've never heard 1 player or coach come out and question his credentials; actually it's the opposite where many experts go out of their way to acknowledge and respect his pedigree.

The "well actually Pep had a stacked team at Barcelona"... That debate is reserved for the idiots on Twitter. Oh yeah, and the Caf. Bastions of knowledge.

It's a good point. If Pep only wins because he has the best team, and needs to be given the best players or be allowed to buy them, why do the biggest clubs sign him? Surely they would be after other managers who could do the same, or be fighting over Klopp as he's been mentioned on here.

 

[el3mel]

You are underselling Barca and Rijkaard there mate. When Rijkaard took over, Barca was in a complete mess and nowhere near European glory. Rijkaard transformed them into one of the most dominant sides in Europe on par with Ancelotti's Milan. They won everything there is to win prior to Pep arriving there. They literrally won the CL 3 years prior.

The season Pep took over Barca was knocked out of the CL by our 2008 squad. And even then we had to basically play 4-6-0 away from home, and park the bus after we knicked a goal against them at OT and hold on to the result. And that was our greatest team probably on par with the treble side.

I'm not saying he inherited a shit team. I'm saying he didn't inherit a dominant side in Spain or Europe at this point. Yes Rijkaard was a success there and yes they won the CL in 2006, but they weren't a dominating force in the same way they became under Pep in his 4 years. They won the league 2 times in the previous 8 years before Pep, who won it 3 times in 4 years alone. They won CL 2 times in their history before Pep. He won the same number of CL trophies in 4 years. Barcelona won 5 trophies in 5 years under Rijkaard, then went on to win 14 ones in 4 years under Pep.

And that's what we are saying. Pep is the perfect manager to unlock your team's full potential and transform it from a team who wins trophies here and there to a team who dominates every single season and win everything.

 

[Theonas]

It's a good point. If Pep only wins because he has the best team, and needs to be given the best players or be allowed to buy them, why do the biggest clubs sign him? Surely they would be after other managers who could do the same, or be fighting over Klopp as he's been mentioned on here.

It's as @adexkola writes a ridiculous debate that should stay on Twitter. It's really on par with the ABU crowd 10 years ago trying to argue that our success was because we were richer than everyone in the league and had the refs and FA in our pocket.

Not sure if it's alright to post here but saw this article by the great Philipp Lahm about tonight's game and it touches a bit on what makes Pep and Ancelotti greats.

https://www.theguardian.com/footbal...feels-like-a-final-as-two-dominant-teams-meet

 

[Hammondo]

It's as @adexkola writes a ridiculous debate that should stay on Twitter. It's really on par with the ABU crowd 10 years ago trying to argue that our success was because we were richer than everyone in the league and had the refs and FA in our pocket.

Not sure if it's alright to post here but saw this article by the great Philipp Lahm about tonight's game and it touches a bit on what makes Pep and Ancelotti greats.

https://www.theguardian.com/footbal...feels-like-a-final-as-two-dominant-teams-meet

Very good article, thank you.

 

[Righteous Steps]

Pep no doubt influenced by Cruyff but I think it's important to recognise one of their biggest differences which is the level of freedom both managers give to their players. Cruyff, like Rinus Michels, both still believed in allowing a high degree of individualism within their teams. Van Gaal was the complete opposite. He took the same ideals as Cruyff and Michels but was much more focused on the collective, everyone adhering a strict set of instructions with not much room for freedom, a bit like playing football from a manual. Pep is an interesting one. At the start of his career I'd say he'd fall in between Cruyff/Michels and LvG. System driven but allowing some freedom in the final third. However, nowadays I'd say Pep has become very system driven, to the point where there's not much room for freedom in his team. Not as extreme as LvG, but closer to his side of the spectrum. I think this is why we've seen players with an abundance of flair join City and have it taken out of them to become more cerebral (i.e. Mahrez and Grealish).

De Bruyne has plenty freedom in Guardiolas team.

 

[Lay]

You are underselling Barca and Rijkaard there mate. When Rijkaard took over, Barca was in a complete mess and nowhere near European glory. Rijkaard transformed them into one of the most dominant sides in Europe on par with Ancelotti's Milan. They won everything there is to win prior to Pep arriving there. They literrally won the CL 3 years prior.

The season Pep took over Barca was knocked out of the CL by our 2008 squad. And even then we had to basically play 4-6-0 away from home, and park the bus after we knicked a goal against them at OT and hold on to the result. And that was our greatest team probably on par with the treble side.

That Barcelona side that season was average though. They finished 3rd I believe (only just qualified for top 4), miles behind first and scraped through the rounds against Celtic and Schalke. They had good players but were dreadful to watch. Henry finished top scorer with 19 goals!

Unpopular opinion perhaps but we gave them too much respect. We didn’t need to play so defensively against them, they rushed Messi back in the first leg because they were desperate. I feel if Cristiano scored his penalty, we would have won 3-0 on the counter.

I don’t want to give Pep credit but he transformed them next season, got the last ounce of talent out of Henry, put Messi as the false 9, brought in Busquets and sorted their fullback issue.

 

[kaiser1]

It's a good point. If Pep only wins because he has the best team, and needs to be given the best players or be allowed to buy them, why do the biggest clubs sign him? Surely they would be after other managers who could do the same, or be fighting over Klopp as he's been mentioned on here.

Season before Pep got to Barcelona they finished 3rd
Season before Pep got to Citeh they finished 4th
How those teams became the best was due to Peps influence

 

[Freak]

Season before Pep got to Barcelona they finished 3rd
Season before Pep got to Citeh they finished 4th
How those teams became the best was due to Peps influence

Nah, there was the referee influence for Barca. And now with City there are some financial investigations as well. Pep will always have a stain on his success for me.

 

[Righteous Steps]

Season before Pep got to Barcelona they finished 3rd
Season before Pep got to Citeh they finished 4th
How those teams became the best was due to Peps influence

Partly but both teams were on the cusp of greatness having had players and been a team than won CLs and Leagues only a year or two before Pep even inherited the sides.

 

[kaiser1]

Nah, there was the referee influence for Barca. And now with City there are some financial investigations as well. Pep will always have a stain on his success for me.

Every top team get accusation of referee influence. Likewise many top clubs got some financial boost in their past before they became "clean". Its almost impossible for a club to grow organically without some boost somewhere. Milan got theirs from Berlusconi, Inter from Moratti, Chelsea from Roman, Juve from Agnelli, Madrid and Barca from their govt etc