If our defence is so bad why is it so good?

[devilish]

This is where you are confused here. Being shit doesn't mean the player isn't attacking mind and not being played in attacking position though.

My point is that most of the players we've been using aren't shit. AWB, Maguire, McT, Fred, Lindelof and Shaw are defensive minded not shit. That has an impact on our stats. We've been decent in terms of defensive stats but our assist/goals stats are suffering.

If those players were shit then we would struggling both in terms of attacking stats and defensive stats.

 

[TheGodsInRed]

I think offensive/defensive setup is more complicated that simply looking at formations, which can often be misleading in the modern game. For example, Spain played in a world Cup final without a striker: 4-6-0... Sounds incredibly defensive, but that was not a defensive team.

Back to the original post, I think our defense, and to exaggerate the point further City's defense, does not have a great deal to do for the majority of games as we are mostly on the ball and attacking, therefore you would expect more clean sheets and less errors than say Crystal Palace who are getting attacked constantly. But they have conceded 32, and City and United 31. So both Manchester defenses have underperformed I would say.

 

[Majima]

Instead of having 1 DM and 2 creative midfielders we tend to play Fred and McT instead. The latter two are as technically gifted and as creative as Philip Neville

So what teams are playing with 1 DM and two creative/goalscoring midfielders?

Did we get an answer to this?

Isn't it obvious? City.

I want to see Matic, Pogba & Bruno together. That's a proper midfield.

 

[BenitoSTARR]

Did we get an answer to this?

Leicester and City would be good examples

 

[Revan]

A defensive-oriented team combined with a historically weak Premier League means that our record is kind of okay. It is a pretty mediocre defense though if we compare it with great United teams (or great current teams). For example, none of our defenders would make Liverpool's starting XI (Maguire might make it, but that's it). Or to compare with United 2008, only Maguire makes the bench from the entire defense IMO.

So yeah, if we compare with average teams, our defense is okay. If we compare it with brilliant teams (be it current, or the past), it is a pretty mediocre defense with every member of it having significant weaknesses.

 

[UNITED ACADEMY]

this.

Our defensive side means that we're lagging behind assist and goal wise. For example if you remove all penalties out of the picture then we'll fall to 8th place in terms of goals scored behind the likes of the usual suspects + Leicester, Arsenal, Spurs and Wolves

We won 2-0 against City and we had more shots with no penalty needed. It isn't because we don't create more but the quality was just not there.

Unlike before, penalty now is being recheck with VAR. If they don't want conceded penalty against us then don't foul us and let the player get passed you easily and score or assist. Most penalties we received that's down the benefit of having players like Pogba, Rashford & James. They are troublemaker players who is not easy to stop and that's why they are fouled more often and which is why we are awarded penalty.

 

[Revan]

The caf is a nightmare these days. If we ever fail to win the whole place melts down, nevermind being the better side, extending to a 12-game unbeaten run, and playing in an empty stadium after months without a game. All we had to hear about is how our only good players are Pogba and Bruno and everyone else should be replaced.

You are relativizing things like the problem is only in our head cause we are spoiled brats. Truth is, we are 37 points off the top while having 46 points in total after 30 games. We have won only 12 out of 30 matches (all-time low in EPL), and are in course for a 58 point season (we got 64 points under Moyes).

Statistic-wise, we are in course for our worst ever season in the history of EPL, but let's pretend that it is all right and the place melts down only cause we are not winning 'every' game (when in truth we are winning only 2 out of 5 games).

 

[welshwingwizard]

I defo disagree with that. But then again, you judge it based on one game which makes me have the right thing to even call you're wrong about that.

Mate don't be so literal. Me using one example doesn't negate a wider point that they aren't adding the supposed value to our play.

 

[ivaldo]

Did we get an answer to this?

Nope. I've asked 3 times now, @devilish is just ignoring it at this point. Maybe he'll finally answer.

I struggle to comprehend how a team which plays 6-7 players who are defensive minded can be described as attacking minded. Now there's plenty of reasons why that might have happened which doesn't necessarily mean that Ole is defensive minded like for example

a- The club's stupidity in not bringing Bruno in during the summer
b- Pogba's injury
c- Our inability to add a top quality RW

However there's no doubt that till January we played a pretty defensive minded team. Our defensive stats, our assist stats and our lack of goals kind of support that. Will that superb defensive stat remain if Pogba starts playing week in week out + we add a top quality RW? I doubt it.

Good job we don't play 6 or 7 defensive minded players then. McTominay and Fred certainly arent. McTominay was playing as a CF just a few years ago and Fred is a pretty progressive passer from deep. But again, by your logic that makes Liverpool a defensive minded team.

 

[UNITED ACADEMY]

My point is that most of the players we've been using aren't shit. AWB, Maguire, McT, Fred, Lindelof and Shaw are defensive minded not shit. That has an impact on our stats. We've been decent in terms of defensive stats but our assist/goals stats are suffering.

If those players were shit then we would struggling both in terms of attacking stats and defensive stats.

You are confusing with player who is also used to offer something in attack but "have no quality" with player who is also used to offer something in attack but "have the quality". It's not like we always set both our full back stay back all the time.

 

[BenitoSTARR]

My two cents:
- McTominay and Fred are box to box that means they are both offensive and defensive but don’t specialise in either currently
- Pogba and Fernandes are clearly the most creative but that doesn’t mean McTominay and Fred just defend
- We have a good defence it could be better
- We have a good midfield it could be better
- We have a good attack it could be better
- We’ve had big injuries all season that has stopped all of the above from being better
- The defence is fine it’s not as attacking as Liverpool’s but we are not Liverpool

 

[Revan]

I think offensive/defensive setup is more complicated that simply looking at formations, which can often be misleading in the modern game. For example, Spain played in a world Cup final without a striker: 4-6-0... Sounds incredibly defensive, but that was not a defensive team.

Back to the original post, I think our defense, and to exaggerate the point further City's defense, does not have a great deal to do for the majority of games as we are mostly on the ball and attacking, therefore you would expect more clean sheets and less errors than say Crystal Palace who are getting attacked constantly. But they have conceded 32, and City and United 31. So both Manchester defenses have underperformed I would say.

Actually, they were quite defensive. Defensive in a different way, same as us under LVG, but still a defensive team. They didn't create many chances, they won every game in KO stage 1-0, in dubious circumstances (Paraguay lost a penalty, the goal against Portugal should have been ruled offside, and Holland created some good chances).

 

[Revan]

Nope. I've asked 3 times now, @devilish is just ignoring it at this point. Maybe he'll finally answer.

Good job we don't play 6 or 7 defensive minded players then. McTominay and Fred certainly arent. McTominay was playing as a CF just a few years ago and Fred is a pretty progressive passer from deep. But again, by your logic that makes Liverpool a defensive minded team.

And AWB was a right winder until a few years ago. Means nothing.

McTominay is on the team because of his defensive contribution, not cause of his passing or attacking skills.

 

[UNITED ACADEMY]

Mate don't be so literal. Me using one example doesn't negate a wider point that they aren't adding the supposed value to our play.

Well, based from what I watch, I see the difference & the manager also see the difference.

You see something what apparently me & the manager don't see, while I see something what you don't see. If we are just going to say something like that, we might should just conclude it agree & disagree.

 

[ivaldo]

Isn't it obvious? City.

I want to see Matic, Pogba & Bruno together. That's a proper midfield.

Keep going. The point being its actually quite rare to see.

I don't. We would get annihilated. Matic struggles to cover the necessary ground anyway, he won't be able to do with next to Pogba.

 

[ivaldo]

And AWB was a right winder until a few years ago. Means nothing.

McTominay is on the team because of his defensive contribution, not cause of his passing or attacking skills.

He's in the team as an all rounder.

 

[devilish]

We won 2-0 against City and we had more shots with no penalty needed. It isn't because we don't create more but the quality was just not there.

Unlike before, penalty now is being recheck with VAR. If they don't want conceded penalty against us then don't foul us and let the player get passed you easily and score or assist. Most penalties we received that's down the benefit of having players like Pogba, Rashford & James. They are troublemaker players who is not easy to stop and that's why they are fouled more often and which is why we are awarded penalty.

That's not the point. Our goal scoring rate is already disappointing. Get the penalties (ie usually opponents mistakes) out of the picture and it get worse.

Playing 6-7 defensive minded players had improved our defensive stats but it hurt our creativity and goal stats. That the main point

 

[devilish]

Nope. I've asked 3 times now, @devilish is just ignoring it at this point. Maybe he'll finally answer.

Good job we don't play 6 or 7 defensive minded players then. McTominay and Fred certainly arent. McTominay was playing as a CF just a few years ago and Fred is a pretty progressive passer from deep. But again, by your logic that makes Liverpool a defensive minded team.

City do but that's not important as formations vary from team to team. Having said that I can't think of many top clubs who play with 7 players who are specialised in defending rather then attacking. I can't think of any top clubs who play with a back four made up of solely defensive players.

 

[BenitoSTARR]

He's in the team as an all rounder.

So what you’re suggesting is he could go to the attacking area and back to the defensive area?

If only there was a name for such a nuanced playstyle?

 

[Lentwood]

The modern game is so different from the football most fans grew up with and in this day and age defence is an incredibly hard position to play.

Times gone by you would stick four men on the edge of your own penalty area and they would hold their position (never dream of getting forward!), kick anything that moved and lump the ball into the stands when it came anywhere near them.

In modern football, defenders are asked to play virtually on the halfway line (especially at the top clubs), they have to go man-for-man against the forwards, they have to be able to bring the ball out of defence, switch the play and if you're a full back, chip in with ten assists a season.

I strongly believe defenders are getting better, but if I asked you to name 5 top class CBs in the PL most posters would struggle. That's why Maguire cost £80m....because apart from a shocking lack of pace everything else he contributes is exactly what you want from a modern CB

It is also why defenders occasionally look great at lower-level clubs where they can defend their penalty boxes week-in, week out, but start to look suspect when they join top teams.

 

[BenitoSTARR]

That's not the point. Our goal scoring rate is already disappointing. Get the penalties (ie usually opponents mistakes) out of the picture and it get worse.

Playing 6-7 defensive minded players had improved our defensive stats but it hurt our creativity and goal stats. That the main point

Why would you discount penalties which are usually an indication of the team making a very threatening offensive action that required fouling to prevent?

You aren’t allowing for any nuance in the players themselves.

Also have we chosen to play these players or has this been forced upon us in some cases?

 

[ivaldo]

City do but that's not important as formations vary from team to team. Having said that I can't think of many top clubs who play with 7 players who are specialised in defending rather then attacking. I can't think of any top clubs who play with a back four made up of solely defensive players.

Good job we don't then.

 

[devilish]

You are confusing with player who is also used to offer something in attack but "have no quality" with player who is also used to offer something in attack but "have the quality". It's not like we always set both our full back stay back all the time.

We have two fullbacks who look lost and useless once they go past our own half. AWB has 2 assists. Shaw has none. All our defence has less assists in them then Robinson, Alexander-Trent, Aurier, Digne and Azpilicueta.

 

[ivaldo]

So what you’re suggesting is he could go to the attacking area and back to the defensive area?

If only there was a name for such a nuanced playstyle?

It's a box somethin' somethin'. On the tip of my tongue...

 

[devilish]

Why would you discount penalties which are usually an indication of the team making a very threatening offensive action that required fouling to prevent?

You aren’t allowing for any nuance in the players themselves.

Also have we chosen to play these players or has this been forced upon us in some cases?

Most penalties happens because because of opponent's mistakes rather then being an obstruction to the inevitable goal. Take Pogba's penalty against Spurs. If the Spurs player didn't pulled him down then that chance would have probably fizzle into nothing.

I fully agree with your third point. If Bruno was bought earlier + Pogba wasn't injury then we would have been more creative. However I believe that such a scenario would also impact our defensive stats.

 

[Majima]

Keep going. The point being its actually quite rare to see.

I don't. We would get annihilated. Matic struggles to cover the necessary ground anyway, he won't be able to do with next to Pogba.

Leicester use it too. Chelsea have used it with Gilmour, Mount & Barkley this season. Real used it with Casemiro, Kroos & Modric. Bayern under Pep used it. It's a possession based system, but i guess that has no business here. We must have cloggers in midfield right?

How will Matic struggle? He was doing fine before the lockdown, easily our best DM. I wouldn't want them to play in a pivot, it would be Matic at DM, with Bruno & Pogba ahead either side.

 

[He'sRaldo]

Leicester use it too. Chelsea have used it with Gilmour, Mount & Barkley this season. Real used it with Casemiro, Kroos & Modric. Bayern under Pep used it. It's a possession based system, but i guess that has no business here. We must have cloggers in midfield right?

How will Matic struggle? He was doing fine before the lockdown, easily our best DM. I wouldn't want them to play in a pivot, it would be Matic at DM, with Bruno & Pogba ahead either side.

Legendary trio at Barcelona as well. I think besides offering more even coverage along the midfield, the main thing is each midfielder needs to up their workrate a bit more to cover for their fellow attacking mids. Then it becomes easy to play, as a lot of the defending will be done with the ball.

 

[BenitoSTARR]

Most penalties happens because of opponent's mistakes. Take Pogba's penalty against Spurs. If the Spurs player didn't pulled him down then that chance would have probably fizzle into nothing.

I fully agree with your third point. If Bruno was bought earlier + Pogba wasn't injury then we would have been more creative. However I believe that such a scenario would also impact our defensive stats.

Pogba forced a desperate defensive action due to good play. Mistakes/penalties happen when offensive actions force defenders to take a chance.

Occasionally, or if you are David Luiz all the time, it’s the defenders fault when no action was necessary or the situation is poorly judged. Even in those instances they only ever occur when there is a significant offensive action. Dier felt he had to track Pogba and challenge him as otherwise Pogba is free to pick a player in the box for a tap in. Saying penalties are all just mistakes is again being blind to nuance and shows a shocking level of ignorance of the ability to force mistakes through good play.

Now I’m glad you acknowledge the injuries playing a significant role in curtailing our offensive output. That was bound to happen when you have two box to box midfielders in our set up as most teams defend deep and you often need pure creators to deal with that either centrally or wide. We did not have the players to create consistently but that is not McTominay or Fred’s fault. They did not decide to allow United to be bereft or attacking depth.

Our average side due in no small part to injuries has statistically been:

De Gea
AWB Lindelof Maguire Shaw
McTominay Fred
James Pereira Rashford
Martial

With all due respect it’s not going to create chaos in the attacking third as there is no player in that side purely designed to pick out the forward movement.

Now if you improve the attacking prospects:

De Gea
AWB Lindelof Maguire Shaw
McTominay Pogba
Greenwood Bruno Rashford
Martial

You can see where the attack would go through. I think the benefit we would get from that (or Matic in place of McT) would far outweigh any defensive frailties that may be exposed.

 

[He'sRaldo]

Pogba forced a desperate defensive action due to good play. Mistakes/penalties happen when offensive actions force defenders to take a chance.

Occasionally, or if you are David Luiz all the time, it’s the defenders fault when no action was necessary or the situation is poorly judged. Even in those instances they only ever occur when there is a significant offensive action. Dier felt he had to track Pogba and challenge him as otherwise Pogba is free to pick a player in the box for a tap in. Saying penalties are all just mistakes is again being blind to nuance and shows a shocking level of ignorance of the ability to force mistakes through good play.

Now I’m glad you acknowledge the injuries playing a significant role in curtailing our offensive output. That was bound to happen when you have two box to box midfielders in our set up as most teams defend deep and you often need pure creators to deal with that either centrally or wide. We did not have the players to create consistently but that is not McTominay or Fred’s fault. They did not decide to allow United to be bereft or attacking depth.

Our average side due in no small part to injuries has statistically been:

De Gea
AWB Lindelof Maguire Shaw
McTominay Fred
James Pereira Rashford
Martial

With all due respect it’s not going to create chaos in the attacking third as there is no player in that side purely designed to pick out the forward movement.

Now if you improve the attacking prospects:

De Gea
AWB Lindelof Maguire Shaw
McTominay Pogba
Greenwood Bruno Rashford
Martial

You can see where the attack would go through. I think the benefit we would get from that (or Matic in place of McT) would far outweigh any defensive frailties that may be exposed.

The point is more to acknowledge the inclusion of those defensive players affected our defense positively, but our attack negatively.

Thus inferring that if more offensive players were included, our defensive numbers would suffer. Which answers the question of why our defence is not rated highly even though we have decent stats.

 

[ivaldo]

Leicester use it too. Chelsea have used it with Gilmour, Mount & Barkley this season. Real used it with Casemiro, Kroos & Modric. Bayern under Pep used it. It's a possession based system, but i guess that has no business here. We must have cloggers in midfield right?

How will Matic struggle? He was doing fine before the lockdown, easily our best DM. I wouldn't want them to play in a pivot, it would be Matic at DM, with Bruno & Pogba ahead either side.

Leicester use it too. Chelsea have used it with Gilmour, Mount & Barkley this season. Real used it with Casemiro, Kroos & Modric. Bayern under Pep used it. It's a possession based system, but i guess that has no business here. We must have cloggers in midfield right?

How will Matic struggle? He was doing fine before the lockdown, easily our best DM. I wouldn't want them to play in a pivot, it would be Matic at DM, with Bruno & Pogba ahead either side.

Those players really aren't in the same mold as Pogba/Bruno. If it was so successful why aren't Chelsea using it now? If we are going to dilute the definition that much, then we might as well include a 'clogger' like Fred in that category. Problem solved We're already doing it!

He was fine playing next to Fred and McSauce, and just about covered the ground he needed to. But on his own with Pogba and Bruno in front of him?

 

[devilish]

Pogba forced a desperate defensive action due to good play. Mistakes/penalties happen when offensive actions force defenders to take a chance.

Occasionally, or if you are David Luiz all the time, it’s the defenders fault when no action was necessary or the situation is poorly judged. Even in those instances they only ever occur when there is a significant offensive action. Dier felt he had to track Pogba and challenge him as otherwise Pogba is free to pick a player in the box for a tap in. Saying penalties are all just mistakes is again being blind to nuance and shows a shocking level of ignorance of the ability to force mistakes through good play.

Now I’m glad you acknowledge the injuries playing a significant role in curtailing our offensive output. That was bound to happen when you have two box to box midfielders in our set up as most teams defend deep and you often need pure creators to deal with that either centrally or wide. We did not have the players to create consistently but that is not McTominay or Fred’s fault. They did not decide to allow United to be bereft or attacking depth.

Our average side due in no small part to injuries has statistically been:

De Gea
AWB Lindelof Maguire Shaw
McTominay Fred
James Pereira Rashford
Martial

With all due respect it’s not going to create chaos in the attacking third as there is no player in that side purely designed to pick out the forward movement.

Now if you improve the attacking prospects:

De Gea
AWB Lindelof Maguire Shaw
McTominay Pogba
Greenwood Bruno Rashford
Martial

You can see where the attack would go through. I think the benefit we would get from that (or Matic in place of McT) would far outweigh any defensive frailties that may be exposed.

I am not taking away from Pogba but lets face it, if that Spurs player didn't commit himself that the chance would have fizzled into nothing. Most penalties are down to individual mistakes made by defenders rather then a desperate bid to avoid the inevitable.

Please not that I am bashing nobody here. It's not Ole or the players fault that Pogba was injured, Bruno was signed in January and that we have no top quality RW.

All I am saying is that if we play a defence with no attacking wingbacks + 2 defensive minded CMs then the defensive stats will improve while the assist/goal stats will go down. That seems pretty much common sense to me.

 

[He'sRaldo]

Those players really aren't in the same mold as Pogba/Bruno. If we are going to dilute the definition that much, then we might as well include Fred in that category. Problem solved! We're already doing it!

He was fine playing next to Fred and McSauce, and just about covered the ground he needed to. But on his own with Pogba and Bruno in front of him?

Modric and Kroos played attacking mid for Spurs and Bayern respectively, while Barkley played attacking mid for Everton and obviously Mount is an attacking mid at Chelsea. Maddison played attacking mid for Norwich as well.

How are they different?

 

[BenitoSTARR]

Legendary trio at Barcelona as well. I think besides offering more even coverage along the midfield, the main thing is each midfielder needs to up their workrate a bit more to cover for their fellow attacking mids. Then it becomes easy to play, as a lot of the defending will be done with the ball.

It’s almost like all good teams treat defending as a team responsibility not an individuals and that the fundamentals of solid defensive play (of which we have displayed numerous times this season) are rooted in positioning and organisation of a unit over one overburdened player.

It’s almost like having an anchor(s) or holding player (depending on who has gone forward) to slow down offensive transitions is important to allow teams to get into this shape but not their responsibility to stop everything by throwing themselves into every tackle.

Man City did this by tucking in their fullbacks into midfield, Liverpool do it with Fabino, Leicester with Ndidi etc.

 

[UNITED ACADEMY]

That's not the point. Our goal scoring rate is already disappointing. Get the penalties (ie usually opponents mistakes) out of the picture and it get worse.

Playing 6-7 defensive minded players had improved our defensive stats but it hurt our creativity and goal stats. That the main point

You'll need to start getting rid this defensive minded or offensive minded. Marcos Alonso is known with his attacking threat. Replace Robertson with Alonso, they will still have same amount of attacking minded but without a doubt defensively they will be much worse with him than Robertson. And if we replace Fred-Scott with Rice-Scott, we'll be much worse in attack but improve in defense.

And like I've said before, players gave you fouls in the penalty area because they are about to create chances that have potential to score or score the goal. Pogba was in dangerous position to create chances in dangerous area for opposition, Dier tried to stop him but unable and end up fouled him.

 

[ivaldo]

Modric and Kroos played attacking mid for Spurs and Bayern respectively, while Barkley played attacking mid for Everton and obviously Mount is an attacking mid at Chelsea. Maddison played attacking mid for Norwich as well.

How are they different?

And McTominay played AM then as a striker for us, while Fed played as an AM for Shaktar. So we must already be doing it then.

 

[He'sRaldo]

It’s almost like all good teams treat defending as a team responsibility not an individuals and that the fundamentals of solid defensive play (of which we have displayed numerous times this season) are rooted in positioning and organisation of a unit over one overburdened player.

It’s almost like having an anchor(s) or holding player (depending on who has gone forward) to slow down offensive transitions is important to allow teams to get into this shape but not their responsibility to stop everything by throwing themselves into every tackle.

Man City did this by tucking in their fullbacks into midfield, Liverpool do it with Fabino, Leicester with Ndidi etc.

I agree, which also explains why some think our defence (aka CB partnership) isn't that good despite the numbers. Because our team setup has helped those numbers, but some think it's at the expense of a more expansive setup.

I do think that were we to open up and play more attacking (which ultimately we must do) we'd need some new defensive players to maintain the same numbers (which we must also do, and better). That's what it means to have good stats in defence but not really rate the defence.

 

[tjb]

From what I saw of Lindelof and Maguire against Tottenham they aren't doing anything special with the ball that Smalling couldn't do. They literally pass it a couple of yards forwards or back. I've been so disappointed we haven't seen the maurading Maguire that could come forward and act as an extra midfielder.

We would have been better off with smalling and Maguire this year.

That's because our team is cramped centrally because we have nothing on the flanks (particularly on the right). Limiting all our possession to the centre and left. It's been like this for years.

 

[He'sRaldo]

And McTominay played AM then as a striker for us, while Fed played as an AM for Shaktar. So we must already be doing it then.

Scott has played only CM, DM, and CB at senior level. Fred played in a double pivot at Shakhtar, pretty much the same role he has now.

 

[BenitoSTARR]

I am not taking away from Pogba but lets face it, if that Spurs player didn't commit himself that the chance would have fizzled into nothing. Most penalties are down to individual mistakes made by defenders rather then a desperate bid to avoid the inevitable.

Please not that I am bashing nobody here. It's not Ole or the players fault that Pogba was injured, Bruno was signed in January and that we have no top quality RW.

All I am saying is that if we play a defence with no attacking wingbacks + 2 defensive minded CMs then the defensive stats will improve while the assist/goal stats will go down. That seems pretty much common sense to me.

But my point is the precursor to that action without the offensive action there is no defensive action. You can’t argue that Dier was going to drag Pogba into the box and foul him. Pogba attacked, Dier (who had not support from Winks) had to challenge a stronger better opponent and fouled him. If you want to stick to the Dier made a mistake narrative ask yourself would that mistake happen and would the penalty happen without Pogba performing an offensive action. If the answer is no then it’s the result of offensive play regardless of how stupid a decision it was Pogba forced a decision to be made Dier chose poorly.

I appreciate you aren’t bashing players I just think you are fundamentally misunderstanding a very basic footballing position the box to box midfielder which both Fred and McTominay are. It is not fair to label them as defensive. They are both offensive and defensive. You need to allow for nuance.

A far better way for you to get your point across would be to say in the absence of Pogba we have had a midfield without a designated creative presence or someone whose main priority or natural function is to create.

 

[jamesjimmybyrondean]

Reading the thread title would be pretty funny the day we get thumped 3-0