The critcism he receives will always be over the top simply because the praise and worship he receives from some people are so over the top.
He is a good manager, not a great one.
Is it fair to worship Guardiola at this point? | The Ball Did It
- Thread starter Brwned
- Start date
-
In the latest episode of the United Hour Podcast, Nik (@Rood) is joined by CEO Duncan Drasdo and Financial Director Andy Green from the Manchester United Supporters Trust for a special episode on all things behind the scenes at Old Trafford including a brief history of MUST and their aims today, views on INEOS and Sir Jim Ratcliffe so far, and the Old Trafford regeneration.
- Status
The critcism he receives will always be over the top simply because the praise and worship he receives from some people are so over the top.
He is a good manager, not a great one.
All conjecture for me. The owners and people pulling the strings have given him big money and seem to have bought into the vision which will take time to deliver. They may not therefore be willing to pull the trigger as some think they might. Ultimately the only people who know that are those making the decisions.
It's easy to criticise an average start that's yielded 7 points from 9. Good title winning sides have ups and downs over a long season but win games playing poorly. Form comes in peaks and troughs. They have huge talent, ability and depth in that squad and if he gets it right and they "click" they'll be tough to beat.
Lots of backslapping from United fans so far I suspect but we won our first 3 last year. We're not the finished article by a long shot and some of the problems we had last year are partially still evident this. Still lacking depth in key areas in my opinion (at full back especially) and over a long season that's a concern.
It probably has something to do with the fact that most Bayern fans watch the majority of Bayern matches, and obviously have an advantage when judging the team performance and the quality of work a manager did.
Anyways it always seemed odd to me for a fan of any team to actually expect or request winning the champions league. From semi final on you can expect a team of a similar (or even better quality) and then it's a toss to an extent. Ancelotti is supposed to be some sort of a cup specialist, and he actually did worse in his first season.
Okay.
What this bloke said. Awaiting the amount of people who label Ancelotti a failure if they fail to win the CL this season.
Problem with the theory that "pragmatists > idealists"...
1. It ignores the vast majority of managers one would call pragmatists, that are just pure mediocre, or crash and burn after a few weeks/seasons. I think managers who bring something new to the table are more likely to ascend the ranks.
2. There is a reason why the likes of Michels, Cryuff et al are ranked high in lists of the greatest managers ever, despite relatively low trophy hauls.
Predictably shitty response.
He's a great manager with flaws like everyone else.
He's not the only manager who's managed Messi you know. He was also the one who started using Messi in a false 9 role and arguably helped Messi become even greater as a player.
He's not the only manager who's managed Messi you know. He was also the one who started using Messi in a false 9 role and arguably helped Messi become even greater as a player.
Pep's main issue, in my eyes, is that he appears to want to play the kind of football he sees in his dreams, at the expense of the players feeling comfortable doing it or even having the required skills to do it. He could get away with it at Barca with the fabulous group of players in their prime that he had there, and he had a more adaptable team at Bayern who could adjust to what he wanted, but as City's chequebook has found out this season (and their trophy cabinet last season) City just didn't have the right players for it. For the first time, he's had a buy a squad. I imagine they'll get there in the end, but having bought heavily, they need to bed in, so things may not be quite as rosy as they would like for a little while longer yet.
Yeah tbf it was shitty.
Okay, so I totally agree that a Bayern fan is going to have a better idea of whether Pep was successful or not. I never questioned that. I just stated I was surprised that the Bayern fans 'love him', which is what I initially replied to. My reasoning for that is based on 2 things.
One, he never even got to a CL final. Now I'm not saying anyone has a right to win the CL or even get to a final, but I'm fairly sure the reason Pep was hired was to continue their league dominance (check) and make (or keep) them a major force in Europe. Now I don't think anyone could argue with the squad when he took over. It was a treble winning squad full of world class players. To not even get close again is a failure. In my opinion, at least. Much like we should've built on 99, I feel Bayern have dropped backwards since their treble. I'm pretty sure Pep was hired to take them forwards, not keep them where they are.
Second is the squad he inherited and the squad he left. He took over the best squad in Europe and left them with probably the third best squad. At the time I'd put Real and Barca ahead of them. Now that's not a glaring failure to be behind those two giants, but he took over the best. His replacements for key players didn't/haven't really lived up to expectations. Still heavily reliant on Robben and an injury prone To and Costa is now gone while Coman has shown promise but not nearly enough to take over from the main guys yet. He's young, however.
Selling Kroos for Alonso was bad business and set Bayern back imo. Obviously Alonso was older and is now retired, but it's not as if Kroos was a youngster. He was coming to his prime and since he's left had been part of the best midfield in the world. He wanted to leave, right? Why? Could Pep have done more to convince him to stay? He put a lot of eggs in the Thiago basket, and if we look at his 3 seasons at Bayern and Kroos' 3 seasons at Real, Kroos has had the better spell.
Thiago took time to settle but is a great talent and shining now.
Its hard to see how he made Bayern better, and that's why I was surprised to see most Bayern fans love him.
If my memory doesn't fail me about the timing, the summer before SAF retired, he had lunch with PEP in NYC, and there was speculation about Pep taking over MUFC. I wonder what really was discussed at that meeting. Perhaps they talked about football, or perhaps about horses. But for some reason, the offer was never made.
If he was Uniteds manager he would have been critiqued from the get go.
Fair to be critical of the refs early in the season already, they've been pretty screwed by the officiating. Walker's sending off, Sterling for a 2nd yellow and no red for Aké when he was clearly last man in a goalscoring position
But still, they continue to lack a goalscorer and while it is obviously the start of the season it will continue to be their biggest weakness
But still, they continue to lack a goalscorer and while it is obviously the start of the season it will continue to be their biggest weakness
What did he do second half ?
People tend to go overboard and exaggerate this type of stuff but I wouldn't call all this criticism unfair as all managers and players are subject to this all the time. Like had he won the Premier League people would be creaming non-stop about him reinventing football and for a long a time his supporters where shitting and heavily criticizing Mourinho for silly stuff as well. So no, I don't think he's the best manager in the world but he's one of the most successful in modern football and it's still finding his way in this league and I don't know if he will live up to the expectations but a lot depends on the players so there's that as well.
P.S. So far and judging him only on his time in Premier League I wouldn't rate him higher than Pellegrini.
P.S. So far and judging him only on his time in Premier League I wouldn't rate him higher than Pellegrini.
Last edited:
The £50 million signing of Mike Dean to shore up his defence helped him yesterday.
Pep apologist much? Let's get it right, if Jose had acted the way Pep did today towards the referee he'd have got slaughtered by the press and rival fans but it's okay for Pep to do it?
On your second point I think it's the total opposite. They have more than enough threat going forward but their problem is despite spending shit loads of money, Pep is still failing to put a defence capable of looking steady together. That's where they will struggle this season.
Same Jose that fingered an opposing coach, encouraged abuse & death threats of a referee that eventually retired as a result and countless sanctions by the FA - that Jose? And I'm the apologist? No bias here
Guardiola wants Sterling's red card explained to him.
In January 2006 Arjen Robben was sent off on receiving a second yellow card for excessive celebration of his goal against Sunderland.
http://news.bbc.co.uk/sport1/hi/football/eng_prem/4590278.stm
Mourinho doesn't criticise the referee. He says maybe instead a further minute could be added, but the decision is in accordance with the rules, and Robben won't do it again.
http://www.independent.co.uk/sport/...acks-ref-over-robben-sending-off-6111532.html
The referee's chief Keith Hackett praises the decision.
http://www.skysports.com/football/news/11668/2363712/ref-robben-red-card-was-right
From that article:
However, Hackett has praised Foy's judgement, and stressed that matters concerning health and safety have to be dealt with properly.
"A large group of spectators, not one or two, surged forward out of their seats, ran to the metal rail and created a surge that involved stewards running to try to prevent a crush situation. That was why Chris Foy cautioned Robben," Hackett explained.
"There is a health and safety issue here. If spectators move forward suddenly it is putting at risk the safety of other spectators and stewards.
"A similar incident at Shrewsbury last year led to a steward suffering a broken arm. The rules are quite specific and Fifa are very keen on them, from the safety aspect.
"People talk about referees using common sense, but we need the players to use common sense and restraint."
I didn't see the highlights of the Bournemouth and City game, so I don't know if there was a crowd surge, but if Guardiola wants an explanation, he could read these articles about a fairly similar incident over 10 years ago. Maybe Garth Crooks and Alan Shearer could do likewise.
Has to be a better way to say that
Hard to type from Pep's ass.
Not sure where I've said Jose is a saint, I've been very critical of Jose in the past and am not a fan of the way he acts either but all I'm saying is, Pep yesterday was acting like a child who didn't get his own way and you and some members of the media are brushing it aside because they've had a couple of decisions go against them (boohoo, it's all swings and roundabouts) but if that was Jose acting in such a way they'd be crying and saying how disrespectful he was.
I reckon the Premier League is going to put him in a loony bin......
You'd think but there isn't
When you chime in that 'had Jose done that' you're indeed making the comparson. I'd remind you that Pep, unlike Jose, has never been disrespectful to opposing coaches, players or officials - yes, he has mannerisms that people love to focus on and even mock. There are even plenty of vids of him as coach of Barcelona with those mannerisms and not only are they amusing but they also show how passionate he is about the game - this isn't polo and he's hardly like El Loco himself in that regard.
Moreover, he has a right to feel aggrieved, their club have been on the wrong end of decisions since he's arrived and to start the season losing two key players for nothing well even the most composed will feel done in. There's not just an agenda from opposing fans on him but also the officiating & media
He's just a more idealist version of Wenger. If it works, they'll play the best football, but it more often than not will not work.
I didn't think that was even possible. It's like saying a more wine-loving version of Sir Alex.
Even I didn't but then Pep came whose style is constant and not dependent on players' limitations and strengths
He arrived to take over what most people thought was the strongest squad in the PL, a squad partly shaped by ex-Barca football management. He spent 190m in his first season. His team started out last season looking like winners and got worse. That's the thing. It's not that they didn't excel, they didn't even look as good as the squad sheet said they were and as their opening games said they were, and they got worse.
So, yes, criticism is due. If not yet of Guardioala's teambuilding abilities, then of the idea that he can make good players into a great team by making the best of them.
The season is young, another couple of hundred million spent, some very obvious talent on display, but still not much use being made of it. It will take time to gel, it's bound to take time. But right now, it's not Pep's purchases who are shining, and it's not his tactical acumen that's beating opponents. Which is interesting and worthy of criticism. He hasn't failed, not yet, but then he hasn't actually done anything worth praising either.
So, yes, criticism is due. If not yet of Guardioala's teambuilding abilities, then of the idea that he can make good players into a great team by making the best of them.
The season is young, another couple of hundred million spent, some very obvious talent on display, but still not much use being made of it. It will take time to gel, it's bound to take time. But right now, it's not Pep's purchases who are shining, and it's not his tactical acumen that's beating opponents. Which is interesting and worthy of criticism. He hasn't failed, not yet, but then he hasn't actually done anything worth praising either.
The best managers of the game show their quality at more than one club. Jury is still out on Pep (and Klopp) for this reasons. He's spent an astronomical amount of money on a side that most people thought already had a huge amount of quality. Make or break season and they've started poorly. Which is, obviously, delightful to watch.
Jesus wept.
In the fecking same match you are harping on about, they scored from a illegitimately given FK and debatable extra time given. Kompany should have been sent off as well as Ake, even their own fans admitted it.
Crawl out of Pep's arse and get a bit of sunlight before you post.
A better summary than mine.
I've been critical of the formations he uses and his decisions. But Guardiola is still one of the very best managers, maybe even the best, at creating great teams. Last season, as I wrote on here already before the first games, they had too many old palyers to have a great teamn as half of their first XI were 30+. He inherited a squad that was well past it. It wasn't a coincidence that they finished on 66 pts the previous season and barely beat LVG's United to the 4th spot.
Now their squad is much better and they will have a far better season, IMO. They started worse than expected but they had several referee decisions going against them (Walker's red card, Ake should have seen the red yesterday and the game would have been over already in the first half), besides they will need time for the new players to learn their roles and the team to gel. Once they find rhythm, they'll produce many quality performances. Hopefully, Jose will beat them to the title. But they will be far better than the first 3 games suggest.
Now their squad is much better and they will have a far better season, IMO. They started worse than expected but they had several referee decisions going against them (Walker's red card, Ake should have seen the red yesterday and the game would have been over already in the first half), besides they will need time for the new players to learn their roles and the team to gel. Once they find rhythm, they'll produce many quality performances. Hopefully, Jose will beat them to the title. But they will be far better than the first 3 games suggest.
All this talk about him being a visionary is surely a joke now days? Spends 350m in the last two season and still will probably spend atleast 80m more(on Sanchez and Evans). He's a good manager but all this talk about following "Cryuff ideals" is surely bollocks now. Another cheque book manager like rest of them.
Barcelona fans are genuinely pathetic. Now that their team has started being inferior in Spain, they've started supporting City. Have got problems with Oil Money of Qatar but will happily support Oil Money of Abu Dhabi. Hypocrites too.
Barcelona fans are genuinely pathetic. Now that their team has started being inferior in Spain, they've started supporting City. Have got problems with Oil Money of Qatar but will happily support Oil Money of Abu Dhabi. Hypocrites too.
"if you can't celebrate with the fans, you should not invite the fans". Pep on Sterling getting a second yellow. He can't be stupid enough to not know why players are not allowed to got to the crowd, can he?
How about when the crowd comes onto the field?
Oh ffs, you'd fit right in at bluemoon.
There isn't an agenda against him ffs. He gets let off by the media in comparison to Utd.
Utd had a very tough season with the refs last season & the media to boot. Although according to Bluemoon the refs gave us all the decisions, yet Utd had one of the least amount of penalties in the league?
That Palace game last season comes to mind, 4 major decisions you could say the Ref got wrong. 2 in favour of each team.
What did the media report? The ones that favoured Utd, funny enough both were not as stonewall as the two favouring Palace. Yet literally no mention what so ever of the decisions.
So feckoff with this 'agenda' bullshit.
You'd have to ask him, his comments were about Sterling going to the crowd after he scored yesterday.
I think he would be a good fit at PSG.. In Neymar he'll have a player who has the ability to do that extra magic on the field.. And with the money PSG has,he can make something else.. I remember reading somewhere,him saying he wanted to coach the Selecao, so the PSG project can tempt him too..
Would be funny too watching Barca supporters conflicted.. Do they continue supporting his every team or hate PSG..
Would be funny too watching Barca supporters conflicted.. Do they continue supporting his every team or hate PSG..
- Status