Exactly. It's ridiculous how Pep is still touted as a nurturer of talent and nobody mentions his spending despite those figures.
Is it fair to worship Guardiola at this point? | The Ball Did It
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In the latest episode of the United Hour Podcast, Nik (@Rood) is joined by CEO Duncan Drasdo and Financial Director Andy Green from the Manchester United Supporters Trust for a special episode on all things behind the scenes at Old Trafford including a brief history of MUST and their aims today, views on INEOS and Sir Jim Ratcliffe so far, and the Old Trafford regeneration.
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He didn't improve Bayern and he didn't improve Man City.
Bayern won the CL before he showed up. His style of football is good against weak teams, but it won't work without Messi.
He won't win the PL or CL soon...
Bayern won the CL before he showed up. His style of football is good against weak teams, but it won't work without Messi.
He won't win the PL or CL soon...
And the way their team squad dress. fecking gimps.
As people said he hasn't improved either of his last two clubs. That said he has the best squad this year and with some luck around injuries should go and win the league, he is good enough to do that
Also, if he's not a definition of a cheque book manager - then who is?
Utd signed 3 players, 2 of them being scoffed at by our rivals.
If Jose adds that to a side that finished 6th and finishes above Pep with this level of spending on WOW! talent then each managers reputation will soar and drop in equal measure.
Pep is going to be under a ridiculous amount of pressure
If Jose adds that to a side that finished 6th and finishes above Pep with this level of spending on WOW! talent then each managers reputation will soar and drop in equal measure.
Pep is going to be under a ridiculous amount of pressure
Serious question but has he improved any of their players since joining? Sterling and Sane started off well last season, but like the rest of the squad began struggling eventually. Not to add, Sterling seems to not be wanted by him. Their goalkeepers are shit, their defence has gotten even worse under him (which was hard to believe), their midfield seems to be about the same and their attack imo has gone backwards (has just been injected with more quality). De Bruyne doesn't look as good as he use to, Aguero doesn't either. Silva seems to be the only one who looks great so far, but he's always very good, I wouldn't exactly say he's improved under Pep.
You can't ignore the spending from the previous season. Has anyone done a side by side comparison between the two?
He outspent us last season too.
Pep spent more last summer also.
I think Pep will succeed at City eventually. He already has them playing great football imo. Results will come too.
You know what gets me about him? He's one of those 'fake humble' dudes. He's not even sublte about it. I remember after their sceond leg against Monaco he said it was his fault they lost the tie (fair enough), but went on to explain that it was his fault because he couldn't convince the players to attack more. WTF? It's him feigning humility and taking responsibility and but in a sly and not so clever way actually blaming his players. In effect, how is it really any different to just blaming the players and saying 'they wouldn't listen to me', 'they didn't follow instructions' or 'they should have attacked more'. If he had said 'it was my fault, we should have attacked more' fair enough, that's him taking part blame for how his team set up. What he's actually saying though is that he did wanna attack more but his players wouldn't listen.
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£300m+ spent in one summer.
Would be banter if they don't win it.
Would be banter if they don't win it.
I don't think being a cheque book manager is wrong. It takes a special level of talent to identify and buy the right players. No club can simply win with kids from the academy.
But the major issue here is that Pep is upgrading a squad which really doesn't need more. All he needed to do was sign Walker and Mendy, and maybe a CDM this season and it would have been enough to challenge. But he has added Bernardo Silva and is now after Sanchez as well, which seems excessive.
His treatment of Aguero is not good and he hasn't been called out on it. Pep's had an issue with any forward who's not an AM in general, tbh. He just can't be pleased.
Give Jose this City squad minus B Silva, Sanchez (if he joins) and one of Walker or Mendy even. He would win the league while improving or playing to the strengths of their defenders like Otamendi and Stones.
If Guardiola was as good as he is cracked up to be, he would have won the league last season with City. I've seen nothing to indicate otherwise that he is anything but a fraud. With the outlay and squad, I would be expecting a treble-winning side at least this season. Last year City fans were raving about Iheanacho and bragging that he was miles ahead of Rashford, yet he's been moved on. They have this kid Foden now but he will soon fizzle out as PG continues to wield his chequebook.
For me, his next job after City will define his status in football management as he has already exhausted most of his nailed on options. If he goes to Juve or PSG next, that will just confirm how much of a fraud he really is. I would like to see him go to a club like Arsenal, AC Milan, Atletico Madrid, Borussia Dortmund and take them to greatness. At this point criticism of Guardiola is completely fair, seeing as he is hailed by some as the best manager in the world.
For me, his next job after City will define his status in football management as he has already exhausted most of his nailed on options. If he goes to Juve or PSG next, that will just confirm how much of a fraud he really is. I would like to see him go to a club like Arsenal, AC Milan, Atletico Madrid, Borussia Dortmund and take them to greatness. At this point criticism of Guardiola is completely fair, seeing as he is hailed by some as the best manager in the world.
In a smilar vein, when he gets into animated discussion with another manager he'll suddenly leap into this brief forceful gesticulating routine, leaving the other guy banjaxed and implying his own obvious ethical and technical superiority. Did it to Eddie Howe on Saturday. I noted it, I wrote it down.
David Moyes probably would've won with the Barcelona team he had.
The fact Barcelona has won plenty after he's left suggests it's more the players than him being the key to success.
He's done nothing special at Bayern.
Again, plenty of managers achieved what he's done at Bayern, and will continue to do so.
And at City, he's spent a ridiculous amount of money, done absolutely zero nurturing and won absolutely feck all so far.
People say he'll win it this year but for all of their supreme technical players, they barely beat Bournemouth.
If the ref didn't decide to give them unlimited injury time until they score, they would've been even further back.
The fact Barcelona has won plenty after he's left suggests it's more the players than him being the key to success.
He's done nothing special at Bayern.
Again, plenty of managers achieved what he's done at Bayern, and will continue to do so.
And at City, he's spent a ridiculous amount of money, done absolutely zero nurturing and won absolutely feck all so far.
People say he'll win it this year but for all of their supreme technical players, they barely beat Bournemouth.
If the ref didn't decide to give them unlimited injury time until they score, they would've been even further back.
List of "plenty" managers who won three consecutive BL titles consists of exactly two names in the whole history of the club:
-Udo Lattek twice (1971/72 to 1973/74 and 1984/85 to 1986/87)
-Ottmar Hizfeld (1998/99 to 2000/01)
That's from 1963 up to present day.
I assume the financial dominance isn't that great back then? And is Lattek considered a genius too (he's before my time)?
Remember that Heynckes left him a treble winning team, success that Pep could not repeat despite spending over 200m euros.
Given the rate Bayern pillage their competitors, every year they don't win the league is a massive upset. I fully expect Ancelotti to make it 2 in a row this year, and 3 in a row if he stays the season after.
And I assume you'll label Ancelloti a failure if he doesn't win the CL with Bayern?
I agree, he hasn't achieved shit at City yet. He's also too reliant on absolute top quality players, a certain level that can only be acquired with a lot of dough.
To be fair though, in that specific Bournemouth match they probably should've played 11 against 10 since Ake's foul on Gabriel Jesus was a red in my book. But yes, they certainly struggled and that match would've ended 1–1 if Mike Dean wasn't such an inconsistent tool.
I think his point was a bit broader, referring to previous managers at Bayern who've won many titles in general, not necessarily consecutive ones or three in a row. Perhaps also during periods where the Bundesliga wasn't as much as a one-club-league as it is today.
Regardless, however, I do agree that Pep's record at Bayern was impressive. He's in fact only behind Ottmar Hitzfeld in major titles won, with 7 compared to Hitzfeld's 11.
Still though, it should be viewed relatively. Bayern's squad during Pep's tenure was top-notch, having just won the treble in the previous season when he took the job.
I have no idea about the financial side, we'll have to rely on Bayern fans here, if there is someone whose knowledge stretches that far. Lattek's resume looks very impressive on paper, having won all three European competitions with three different clubs. He was way before my time, that's another question better answered by someone more knowledgeable.
It is interesting to note that famed Heynckes is actually the last coach who has not won the bundesliga with Bayern, in 2011/12.
As for repeating a treble, there is exactly one club that has won more than one treble, and a total of seven clubs that have won it in 60+ years of European competitions, it's not something that happens often.
Slightly off topic, this whole trend of completely negating achievements of certain managers just because they worked at clubs with great squads seems odd to me. I can understand someone thinking that Guardiola is overrated, but a fraud? That's taking it too far surely...
Pep didn't leave him a treble winning team did he?
Also, I am not saying Pep was a failure at Bayern. I am saying plenty won the league at Bayern so that achievement doesn't make him a genius. Even 3 in a row have been done multiple times before (not a Bayern fan so had no idea).
Btw, I picked "A good manager who has been successful only because he's had exceptional teams". I am not saying he's a fraud but when he doesn't have the best team in the league, he wins nothing.
If Ancelotti wins it this year, he can be added to the list as well. Kind of spoils the prestige if the team win the league 6 times in a row. Maybe it's more so the financial power of Bayern rather than the manager.
I will be the first to agree that his CL record at Bayern is somewhat underwhelming, but you really can't plan on winning the CL. Unlike Heynckes who had his full squad during the latter half of the 2012/13 season, including fit and firing Robben and Ribery (who were i feel their best players during that run), as far as i recall Guardiola mostly missed one or the other in those semifinals. Ribery also declined to an extent afterwards, it was his best season there.
Actually expecting and requiring a team to win the CL is just completely unrealistic, it is a cup run in the toughest competition in the world, and no matter how good your team is you need a number of breaks to go your way. Ferguson won two in what, 16-17 appearances, does that make him a failure too?
I did not say he was a failure.
And to me, his City spell is showing us how he's actually not much of a manager.
Winning nothing isn't that bad. SAF has had seasons with nothing. That's just the league being highly competitive.
What's damaging him is making a statement by booting Hart out for Bravo, then benching him after a year. Signing Stones for massive amount of money and now seemingly benched him. Sell all the full backs in the squad and buying a bunch of big names. Have an incredible front line, buy even more. It's as if the guy doesn't do any coaching. Buy and bench if not good enough - replace with new toys.
That's like Football Manager with cheat mode and even if they get success this year, how much of it is down to Pep vs the oil money?
That line of logic doesn't work on this forum.
Another thing about the Bayern CL win in 2014 was that, according to some Bayern fans on here (@Balu for example... where is he?), the treble winning season was literally lightning in a bottle. They were months removed from a humiliating loss against Chelsea at the Allianz, and they poured that frustration into every match during the season. The way they dismantled Wolfsburg in the DFB Pokal, Barcelona in the CL... that was more than a great tactical setup, that was just raw energy manifested on the pitch. Don't get me wrong, tactics were spot on as well. Their tie vs Juventus was one of the most impressive takedowns I've seen from a tactical perspective. But their fortunes lined up uniquely, something that hasn't happened for them since. Injuries have hampered them in recent seasons, robbing them of Robben (no pun intended), Ribery and others at several crucial points.
So no, Guardiola wasn't perfect at Bayern, but I'd only criticize him heavily for the Madrid loss, and every top manager has a CL tie where they've screwed up royally. Barcelona was always going one way with the injuries, and the Atletico tie could have gone either way, with his side crashing out on away goals. Otherwise, using his tenure there as a stick to beat him with smacks of ignorance, given that such a view is out of line with reality, as told by Bayern fans who, like, actually, watched their team in and out during those 3 years.
It's kind of like damned if he does, even more damned if he (hopefully) doesn't.
Suggesting he's a fraud is a bit much, but he's also not the messianic manager that turns youth players into world class stars because of his next level, genius strategies that his fanboys and media supporters have often portrayed him as. He wields the cheque book just like the best managers now and he has flaws just like others.
Not winning the CL with the Bayern squad isn't the criticism I have of him, it's that I don't think he did a particularly good job of replenishing the squad's talent in key areas in the transfer market or through promoting talent from the youth academy. For the record, I voted "one of the best managers in the world, with flawks like everyone else".
I seem to remeber that exact post, i did read the forums for probably 4-5 years or so before actually registering. It makes complete sense, it must have been heartbreaking for them to lose a CL final at their home turf, especially in such a way. When you add the fact they have lost the cup as well, and finished 2nd, it is not that surprising they were supremely motivated next year. I agree wholeheartedly with the other part, think i wrote a somewhat similar reappraisal of his time at Bayern, maybe not on this topic though.
Just one question? I roughly calculated the expenditure during these last two seasons at City and United under Mourinho and Guardiola, and it turns out that Mourinho spent around 300M pounds to Guardiola's 370M. I'm wondering, if United wins the title this season, does the same logic of buying success apply to him, and if not, why not?
Mourinho has always been accused of being a cheque book manager. Nobody's denying he spends money to get results, like most other top managers at top clubs nowadays. That same accusation rarely gets leveled at Pep despite their similarities in spending.
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Let it be said once and for all, that Pep is a check-book manager.
I voted the same, and I completely agree with you.
Fair enough about the spending, it is known that he spent a boatload of money both in Barcelona and Bayern, didn't know it was controversial at all.
I also voted the same by the way, that is a good assesment. I spent my quota of posts for today, so if anything else crops up i won't be able to participate until tomorrow. Cheers everyone.
Mourinho being a chequebook manager is an asinine opinion. His best work was done at clubs where he spent modest amounts (Porto and Inter). Having lots of money makes things easier, but the pedigree of manager some people think Guardiola is, can perform by spending the cash and spending relatively small amounts.
Guardiola has only spent large amounts of cash, he is the definition of a cheque book manager. If you don't understand his methods then you are shipped off. Many other managers can utilize limited players for specialized situations whereas Guardiola prefers to take players that have a wide skillset and then play them in many different positions.
I used to drink the kool-aid on Guardiola; and then Luis Enrique won the treble. A nothing manager got the Barcelona job because of his history as a player and did something far superior managers never accomplished. If we are to take into consideration the cult of Pep; then he is definitely a fraud. But, if we only consider sensible opinions then his is a good manager that is a bit over rated.
Nah, I think Zidane has the ability to be a success elsewhere.
Tactically he is much more flexible than Pep. There have been games where he has basically set up his team on the counter like away to Bayern or Barca. Where as Pep would try to go toe to toe with them even away from home.
There's no philosophy or any of that bullshit with Zidane.
It's Peps holier than thou attitude and following from the press/fanboys that really grates me mostly.
I actually appreciate his style of football, City play some beautiful stuff at times; but the way he disregards defending as almost unimportant cost him last year.
We shall see if he's learnt his lesson this year, he has by far the stongest squad in England right now, so he should be doing well in all 4 competitions.
I actually appreciate his style of football, City play some beautiful stuff at times; but the way he disregards defending as almost unimportant cost him last year.
We shall see if he's learnt his lesson this year, he has by far the stongest squad in England right now, so he should be doing well in all 4 competitions.
City's defending improved considerably as the season progressed (starting roughly from the mid-point). I think they conceded less than Chelsea in the second half of the season and I don't see Chelsea's defence being questioned. I would suggest he has already learnt his lesson but equally I think its unlikely there will be many occasions where the 'bus is parked'.
Also worth mentioning that I can't think of many times that Jose has spent a fortune on a player and then just fecked him off for a replacement expensive player a year later.
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