Is it fair to worship Guardiola at this point? | The Ball Did It

[McGrathsipan]

Funny thing was that a few years ago after watching his Barca teams and reading the book about him written by Balague I was actually convinced that he was some sort of tactical genius and that he was set to be the next Fergie. But since then I have been massively underwhelmed and can't help but think it was more of a 'good place, right time' situation with Barcelona in why he was so successful. At City he has resorted to throwing money around in the hope of success and has shown absolutely no faith at all in youth players. They will most likely win the league this season and he will be lauded as a messiah but i'm not convinced. If City don't win it he should and probably will be sacked.

There is nothing to suggest that they will win the league - its a very open compettion this year.

Liverpool have as much chance of winning it as City.

 

[Kentonio]

Both should compete for the league. If they allow Chelsea/Spurs/Liverpool to overtake them, then that would be a failure. 400M are a lot of money, of course. No excuses anymore.

Err, we've spent 300m in those same 14 months, and we were a lot stronger than you before that. Also neither us nor Spurs would be 'overtaking' either Manchester team as we finished above you both last year.

 

[JASR]

No you haven't, don't lie.

Err.

Sorry I didn't realise you had a case of the Being John Malkovich's.

I wear glasses, I can only assume that they have shifted the colour spectrum you saw and hence led you to believe that what you were seeing through my eyes was Red more often than it actually was.

Heyho. Can't say my life is that exciting, but whatever floats your boat. We're all guilty of Voyeurism.

:-)

/end of thread derailment

 

[AR87]

Liverpool have as much chance of winning it as City.

No they don't

 

[Treble]

Still a fraud?

 

[11101]

Still a fraud?

Have you seen how much he's spent? He was shown up irreversibly last season really.

 

[VorZakone]

Not a fraud but should be winning at least 1 out of the 4 possible trophies this season.

 

[Treble]

Have you seen how much he's spent? He was shown up irreversibly last season really.

Serious?

He inherited a squad that was past it. It's swan song was in 2014. He's building a new squad now, it still has deficiences: at CB and DM. Still early days though. I'm not sure that they are favourites to win the league but it's small time to call him a fraud.

 

[AshRK]

Still a fraud?

That is called overreaction, just like how people call lukaku a donkey or jose past his prime or klopp the best thing in football or pep a academy promoter. All these are myths. Pep is a fine manager but this season has proven he is also a chequebook manager just like jose has always been accused of.

Even if he fails to win the league he won't be a fraud , just an overrated manager.

 

[Treble]

That is called overreaction, just like how people call lukaku a donkey or jose past his prime or klopp the best thing in football or pep a academy promoter. All these are myths. Pep is a fine manager but this season has proven he is also a chequebook manager just like jose has always been accused of.

Even if he fails to win the league he won't be a fraud , just an overrated manager.

Yeah, I'd agree with that.

 

[Haddock]

He's bought an entire team since last season! I'd be more surprised if he didn't win the league at a canter.

 

[cyberman]

A bit strange that he leaves himself with 2 strikers when playing 2 up top though

 

[Walters_19_MuFc]

What formation did Pep use today?

Coming up on the Sky Sports app as a 4132 - same as what they used against Feyenoord.

 

[Treble]

A bit strange that he leaves himself with 2 strikers when playing 2 up top though

Indeed. Maybe he was sure about getting Sanchez?

 

[El cangrejo]

He's bought an entire team since last season! I'd be more surprised if he didn't win the league at a canter.

Only three of their starting line-up today weren't there last season.

 

[11101]

Serious?

He inherited a squad that was past it. It's swan song was in 2014. He's building a new squad now, it still has deficiences: at CB and DM. Still early days though. I'm not sure that they are favourites to win the league but it's small time to call him a fraud.

Really? He's still pretty heavily reliant on Aguero and the midfield trio of De Bruyne, Fernandinho and Silva, all of whom were there when he arrived. It's a bit like those who said Fergie left us with an ageing, hopeless squad. It's rubbish.

I wouldn't call him a fraud, but he's shown himself to be hugely overrated. Last season was the first where he had actual competition.

 

[sunama]

Serious?

He inherited a squad that was past it.

MCFC had the best squad in the league last season. That's what he inherited.
Jose would've killed to have inherited that "past it" squad, which Pep inherited.

 

[Treble]

MCFC had the best squad in the league last season. That's what he inherited.
Jose would've killed to have inherited that "past it" squad, which Pep inherited.

Based on what? What the pundits said?

The cold facts: they finished on 66 pts the previous season - as many as United. And had the following problems: the keeper wasn't good enough, the full-backs were completely past it, the captain and most important figure in defence hardly played in 2/3 of the season, Toure's old, Fernandino's 30+ as well. Navas was crap. Sterling had a crap first season...They had a lot of problems. And managed to address them only partially. As regards Jose - he added Zlatan, Pogba, Mkhi and Bailly and won only 3 pts more than LVG the previous season. Truth is neither Guardiola nor Jose did well in the league last season.

 

[padr81]

That is called overreaction, just like how people call lukaku a donkey or jose past his prime or klopp the best thing in football or pep a academy promoter. All these are myths. Pep is a fine manager but this season has proven he is also a chequebook manager just like jose has always been accused of.

Even if he fails to win the league he won't be a fraud , just an overrated manager.

This is something I don't understand with the people who hate on pep (not yourself). He constantly says all winning managers are chequebook managers including himself, constantly says he's lucky to have worked with players he's had and people still use these as sticks to beat him and come out with rubbish like he see's himself as some kind of football oracle which is miles from the truth.
T
Good post.

 

[AshRK]

This is something I don't understand with the people who hate on pep (not yourself). He constantly says all winning managers are chequebook managers including himself, constantly says he's lucky to have worked with players he's had and people still use these as sticks to beat him and come out with rubbish like he see's himself as some kind of football oracle which is miles from the truth.
T
Good post.

It's the media propaganda and some fans narrative that we are against. Media portray him as some kind of youth academy promoter which he is not. The whole assumption that jose is an academy killer but pep just lives and breath academy players is the biggest myth.

Also, the same pep back in 2010 criticised clubs who are spending insane amount and said he will never do that and here we are,.Pep and his philosophy.

Again nothing against pep as a manager. I am not like a city or arsenal fan to just badmouth pep because he manages a rival club, I rate him, a very good manager who deserves utmost respect but I cannot fanthom the thought of him as some guy who just brings through academy players.

 

[Infordin]

Have you seen how much he's spent? He was shown up irreversibly last season really.

If there's such a thing as being "shown up irreversibly", then Mourinho has proved himself to be a terrible manager after his last season at Chelsea.

Pep hasn't had the lows Mourinho has had.

As for this criticism of Pep about him having a dominant Barcelona side, Mourinho could have enjoyed the same at Real Madrid had he not fallen out with the players.

 

[padr81]

It's the media propaganda and some fans narrative that we are against. Media portray him as some kind of youth academy promoter which he is not. The whole assumption that jose is an academy killer but pep just lives and breath academy players is the biggest myth.

Also, the same pep back in 2010 criticised clubs who are spending insane amount and said he will never do that and here we are,.Pep and his philosophy.

Again nothing against pep as a manager. I am not like a city or arsenal fan to just badmouth pep because he manages a rival club, I rate him, a very good manager who deserves utmost respect but I cannot fanthom the thought of him as some guy who just brings through academy players.

The media will always pick a perogative and choose their favorites, nothing Pep can do about that. Take the Mane red reaction, swap Mane for Diego Costa and 50% of the media change their opinion. I actually find it weird alot of the media champion Pep in general as he shows them nothing but contempt.

Of course he has complained about money, so too has Jose when it suits him (Kyle Walker) but the reality is something they all know and will openly admit. Generally he who buys best and has best players win. Pep was lucky with the youth crop at La Masia, like Fergie was with the class of 92. You get the feeling both groups would have been class regardless, but would their team results have been as good is the real question? Would those kids have stuck around etc...

I find the media circus around every manager quite nauseating as they get put in a box so to speak. For example Pep and youth is one, that is simply not true but the media will spout it anyway. Another is Jose and negativity, another manager sets up for a 0-0 and gets it media slaughter them, Jose does it and the media say "another Jose masterclass in tactics", take the 2nd derby last season as an example. Klopp going mental and its "passion" according to the media. Pep does it "he's struggling with the pressure", Jose does it "Thats Jose being a wanker again.". All Italian manager build great defences is another, Ranieri is "a tinker man" despite the fact he won the title with Leicester using about 12 players etc..

Its unfair that said managers get stereotyped like that but its part of lazy journalism.. Jose happened to be the first manager handed infinite funds (at Chelsea) so he's the spender. Pep is lucky that his first major job handed him youth like Messi, Sergio etc... so he's "the youth guy". Basically one manager will be slaughtered for the exact same reasons another is praised depending on the box where the media have shoved them.

Pep of course has his flaws, lots of flaws. But the supposed arrogance that people say he has is more to do with others opinions of Pep's than his opinion of himself. Ask Pep "Whose the best manager of all time?", he'll answer "Sir Alex Ferguson" before you finish the question. Hardly the signs of someone who is hugely arrogant.

 

[JASR]

Based on what? What the pundits said?

The cold facts: they finished on 66 pts the previous season - as many as United. And had the following problems: the keeper wasn't good enough, the full-backs were completely past it, the captain and most important figure in defence hardly played in 2/3 of the season, Toure's old, Fernandino's 30+ as well. Navas was crap. Sterling had a crap first season...They had a lot of problems. And managed to address them only partially. As regards Jose - he added Zlatan, Pogba, Mkhi and Bailly and won only 3 pts more than LVG the previous season. Truth is neither Guardiola nor Jose did well in the league last season.

Is correct.

 

[AshRK]

The media will always pick a perogative and choose their favorites, nothing Pep can do about that. Take the Mane red reaction, swap Mane for Diego Costa and 50% of the media change their opinion. I actually find it weird alot of the media champion Pep in general as he shows them nothing but contempt.

Of course he has complained about money, so too has Jose when it suits him (Kyle Walker) but the reality is something they all know and will openly admit. Generally he who buys best and has best players win. Pep was lucky with the youth crop at La Masia, like Fergie was with the class of 92. You get the feeling both groups would have been class regardless, but would their team results have been as good is the real question? Would those kids have stuck around etc...

I find the media circus around every manager quite nauseating as they get put in a box so to speak. For example Pep and youth is one, that is simply not true but the media will spout it anyway. Another is Jose and negativity, another manager sets up for a 0-0 and gets it media slaughter them, Jose does it and the media say "another Jose masterclass in tactics", take the 2nd derby last season as an example. Klopp going mental and its "passion" according to the media. Pep does it "he's struggling with the pressure", Jose does it "Thats Jose being a wanker again.". All Italian manager build great defences is another, Ranieri is "a tinker man" despite the fact he won the title with Leicester using about 12 players etc..

Its unfair that said managers get stereotyped like that but its part of lazy journalism.. Jose happened to be the first manager handed infinite funds (at Chelsea) so he's the spender. Pep is lucky that his first major job handed him youth like Messi, Sergio etc... so he's "the youth guy". Basically one manager will be slaughtered for the exact same reasons another is praised depending on the box where the media have shoved them.

Pep of course has his flaws, lots of flaws. But the supposed arrogance that people say he has is more to do with others opinions of Pep's than his opinion of himself. Ask Pep "Whose the best manager of all time?", he'll answer "Sir Alex Ferguson" before you finish the question. Hardly the signs of someone who is hugely arrogant.

Never said pep is arrogant, no way he is arrogant. But just talking about the media generally, the way they make some propaganda is crazy.

 

[Cascarino]

Based on what? What the pundits said?

The cold facts: they finished on 66 pts the previous season - as many as United. And had the following problems: the keeper wasn't good enough, the full-backs were completely past it, the captain and most important figure in defence hardly played in 2/3 of the season, Toure's old, Fernandino's 30+ as well. Navas was crap. Sterling had a crap first season...They had a lot of problems. And managed to address them only partially. As regards Jose - he added Zlatan, Pogba, Mkhi and Bailly and won only 3 pts more than LVG the previous season. Truth is neither Guardiola nor Jose did well in the league last season.

Agree with all of this. Guardiola and Mourinho are the two best managers in the Prem (probably the world) but both were disappointing last season in the league.

 

[Crashoutcassius]

They're going to walk it and pep deserves credit for that - but as usual he is working with the biggest budget and the best squad so still waiting for a real test of him

 

[kouroux]

So the issue of Jesus and Aguero seems resolved, just play them both.

 

[padr81]

Never said pep is arrogant, no way he is arrogant. But just talking about the media generally, the way they make some propaganda is crazy.

Not you mate. I was just rambling about alot of the criticisms of him in this thread.

 

[Cheesy]

They're going to walk it and pep deserves credit for that - but as usual he is working with the biggest budget and the best squad so still waiting for a real test of him

I dunno, would have them as favourites but for me the assertion that they'll 'walk it' seems a bit premature. As they demonstrated last season, City have a tendency to go through hot and cold flashes; when they're winning they look unstoppable, but when they hit a bad patch they find it difficult to get out of.

 

[Manchester Dan]

Strong fullbacks with pace has made such a drastic change to this side. We are playing some fantastic football at the moment, but what impressed me the most today was our pressing off the ball - we moved as a team always seemed to have 3/4 players closing down around those Watford players playing the ball, meaning they had nowhere to go.

There's a hunger in the squad that's been missing for a few years, perhaps they really feel the pressure to win it this year. Hope it carries on.

 

[marktan]

I'm not the biggest Pep fan for his club choices thus far - the Barca and Bayern teams he managed were very strong and most would do well there. The CL losses with Bayern were a blip and he should've been more game smart but the CL can be dodgy too.

City was similar for me in that they have a lot of money, but then so do most clubs now (though City do have a bit more than everyone else). He's spent the money well imo. Identified the weaknesses (full back, GK, defence) and signed some very good players. It's still too attacking a team and against a top European team could get exposed, but it should win the league because they'll destroy most weaker teams and a fair few of the top 6 too. If we signed Walker and Mendy our team would've been favourites for the league because we sorely lack some width and attacking intent from both our full backs and our attacking wide players.

 

[AshRK]

I'm not the biggest Pep fan for his club choices thus far - the Barca and Bayern teams he managed were very strong and most would do well there. The CL losses with Bayern were a blip and he should've been more game smart but the CL can be dodgy too.

City was similar for me in that they have a lot of money, but then so do most clubs now (though City do have a bit more than everyone else). He's spent the money well imo. Identified the weaknesses (full back, GK, defence) and signed some very good players. It's still too attacking a team and against a top European team could get exposed, but it should win the league because they'll destroy most weaker teams and a fair few of the top 6 too. If we signed Walker and Mendy our team would've been favourites for the league because we sorely lack some width and attacking intent from both our full backs and our attacking wide players.

I know what you are saying and to be fair I agree but the fact remains he signed them where as jose was more interested in strengthening other areas. I still feel jose could have gone all out and made some overall changes to the squad but he chose to trust his squad, so fair play to him. Not it is for the players to deliver because if again this season we falter and scrap 4th only then we must accept the players we have are not good enough to win us the league. We cannot constantly blame managers and give players a free pass year after year.

 

[Charlie Foley]

The media will always pick a perogative and choose their favorites, nothing Pep can do about that. Take the Mane red reaction, swap Mane for Diego Costa and 50% of the media change their opinion. I actually find it weird alot of the media champion Pep in general as he shows them nothing but contempt.

Of course he has complained about money, so too has Jose when it suits him (Kyle Walker) but the reality is something they all know and will openly admit. Generally he who buys best and has best players win. Pep was lucky with the youth crop at La Masia, like Fergie was with the class of 92. You get the feeling both groups would have been class regardless, but would their team results have been as good is the real question? Would those kids have stuck around etc...

I find the media circus around every manager quite nauseating as they get put in a box so to speak. For example Pep and youth is one, that is simply not true but the media will spout it anyway. Another is Jose and negativity, another manager sets up for a 0-0 and gets it media slaughter them, Jose does it and the media say "another Jose masterclass in tactics", take the 2nd derby last season as an example. Klopp going mental and its "passion" according to the media. Pep does it "he's struggling with the pressure", Jose does it "Thats Jose being a wanker again.". All Italian manager build great defences is another, Ranieri is "a tinker man" despite the fact he won the title with Leicester using about 12 players etc..

Its unfair that said managers get stereotyped like that but its part of lazy journalism.. Jose happened to be the first manager handed infinite funds (at Chelsea) so he's the spender. Pep is lucky that his first major job handed him youth like Messi, Sergio etc... so he's "the youth guy". Basically one manager will be slaughtered for the exact same reasons another is praised depending on the box where the media have shoved them.

Pep of course has his flaws, lots of flaws. But the supposed arrogance that people say he has is more to do with others opinions of Pep's than his opinion of himself. Ask Pep "Whose the best manager of all time?", he'll answer "Sir Alex Ferguson" before you finish the question. Hardly the signs of someone who is hugely arrogant.

I'd say he probably is arrogant, but I don't think that's a bad thing or an uncommon thing. To get to the top you often need arrogance, and then being at the top can fuel it. If he didn't have an ego given how his life in general has gone that would be a little weird.

 

[dichinero]

Based on what? What the pundits said?

The cold facts: they finished on 66 pts the previous season - as many as United. And had the following problems: the keeper wasn't good enough, the full-backs were completely past it, the captain and most important figure in defence hardly played in 2/3 of the season, Toure's old, Fernandino's 30+ as well. Navas was crap. Sterling had a crap first season...They had a lot of problems. And managed to address them only partially. As regards Jose - he added Zlatan, Pogba, Mkhi and Bailly and won only 3 pts more than LVG the previous season. Truth is neither Guardiola nor Jose did well in the league last season.

The unbias is refreshing. Good post.

 

[Theonas]

They're going to walk it and pep deserves credit for that - but as usual he is working with the biggest budget and the best squad so still waiting for a real test of him

I don't think they will walk it, way too early for that. What many seem to be missing here though is the style and approach of Pep's game. He is not lauded and worshipped because he won a lot, many have including our own Mourinho. He is lauded because his teams play the most dominant verging on humiliating football we have seen in recent years. If he wins the league with City in the same way Conte, Mancini, Mourinho did as in win a lot of close games, being solid and tough, nobody will laud Pep as anything special, he will be rightfully considered just another top manager. If he wins it by humiliating and dominating his rivals and registering some emphatic victories like he did with Barcelona and to a lesser extent Bayern, he will rightfully justify his reputation as an all time great. The argument of having great players is just ridiculous. People talk about Barcelona and Bayern having great players as though nobody else ever did. Plenty of teams have top players, how many win as consistently whilst making their rivals like small teams defending for their lives and hoping for the luck of set pieces? It is that aura that City paid good money for, not merely winning. We just have to hope he fails replicating that at City.

 

[padr81]

I'd say he probably is arrogant, but I don't think that's a bad thing or an uncommon thing. To get to the top you often need arrogance, and then being at the top can fuel it. If he didn't have an ego given how his life in general has gone that would be a little weird.

Thats true mate, arrogant was probably the wrong word, more the people who say he see's himself as somekind of football God, or all knowing Deity. I just don't understand those accusations is all.

 

[Womp]

Based on what? What the pundits said?

The cold facts: they finished on 66 pts the previous season - as many as United. And had the following problems: the keeper wasn't good enough, the full-backs were completely past it, the captain and most important figure in defence hardly played in 2/3 of the season, Toure's old, Fernandino's 30+ as well. Navas was crap. Sterling had a crap first season...They had a lot of problems. And managed to address them only partially. As regards Jose - he added Zlatan, Pogba, Mkhi and Bailly and won only 3 pts more than LVG the previous season. Truth is neither Guardiola nor Jose did well in the league last season.

You dissect and address every issue City have but completely ignore the issues with our squad. Our striker options were Wayne Rooney and two inexperienced kids, our fullbacks consisted of a crock with a broken leg, a midfielder, Darmian who shits himself at the thought of going past half way and a winger. Our midfield options consisted of Herrera, who was extremely out of favour (similar issue to what Pep had to 'deal with' with Sterling), Schneiderlin who is mid-table quality, Schweinsteger who was the fecking definition of past it and Carrick who's legs would turn to dust at the thought of running. Fellaini is Fellaini - he has is uses, but isn't the required quality to be a permanent option.

Our defence consisted of Rojo, who most on here would have bitten your arm off to get rid of before Jose, Smalling who fair enough was coming off the back of a good season, Jones, the less said about the better and the same midfielder who was also playing left back for us. City were stronger than us in a fair few areas on the pitch, their attack was miles ahead of ours. Navas etc. being crap is being completely blown out of proportion, Navas was out of favour and was playing as a wingback for them on occasion. That's like saying Depay was crap, so it made Jose's job so much more difficult - it didn't. Their midfield was getting old, fair enough. Ours had Morgan, Carrick and Schweinsteiger, Herrera who was out of favour and fecking Fellaini. Our attack consisted of two kids, who obviously weren't/aren't ready to carry the team's burdens by themselves, yet had to because the rest of our attack was quite frankly shite. Who was United quality? Mata, that's about it. Rooney was obviously past it and Depay was and still is shite.

Both managers underperformed in the league last season, but to claim City had such a difficult time while our squad was cruising is just wrong. Just look at the state of the squads now, their squad is complete - apart from maybe a DM they are sorted. We still need a LB, a RB in a year or two given Valencia's age, we need a back-up to Matic and a proper right-sided player.

 

[Andycoleno9]

Still a fraud?

He is not a fraud , he is just overrated manager. He can do good only in laboratory conditions like he has now in city. He replaced nearly all squad, spent fortune on squad which was already good. Sometimes i have a feeling that he constantly want to mix something to show how big genius he is. And with that he is doing lots of mistakes that people miss because hey, he is fecking pep guardiola.
I would say it like this- give him, ancceloti, mourinho, klopp the same squad he will finish last. Give them one billion pounds, he will finish first.

 

[Janson]

Not at this particular point, obviously.
But I'm guessing the time will come eventually.

 

[RooneyLegend]

He's tossing up a challenge to the rest of the league, keep up or get left in the dust. IMO they are clear favorites for the title this season and are playing at a higher standard than anyone else. What will determine how the EPL shapes up in the next years is how the other clubs react to what he's building. I don't get why people are complaining about the money, we're doing the exact same thing for quite some time now, but they look well ahead of us at this point.