Is it fair to worship Guardiola at this point? | The Ball Did It

[adz_87]

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[MJJ]

Would you swap your back 5 for Delph, Stones, Otamendi, Walker and Ederson? Would you swap Matic for Fernandinho? Would you take Jesus over Lukaku? I read how you're just as strong on here frequently. This team isn't flawless, but they're playing some fantastic stuff and between the pressing, movement and passing it's not hard to see Peps influence.

Out of interest, do you rate Mourinho? You know, given the funds he's had since joining. Your players shouldn't need too much managerial instruction. Or something.

Offtopic but that's don't a fair comparison, it should be our back five against mendy-kompany-stones-walker.

Give mourinho a year with that back four and he will have them playing better than our current back four as three of the players are better than their united counterparts.

Kdb is probably the best player on either side and both your wingers and strikers are better than ours.

The gap isn't that big between us two but you do have the more complete and better team for now.

 

[Bubz27]

Well we are all aware of that, but the selective bashing and praises of certain managers needs to be exposed as well.

This is the biggest gripe I think most have. But really we should embrace it. Fergie loved it too. Us against them.

 

[spiriticon]

He's smashing it this season. We'll have to be on top form consistently to keep up with that City team.

 

[Manchester Dan]

Offtopic but that's don't a fair comparison, it should be our back five against mendy-kompany-stones-walker.

Give mourinho a year with that back four and he will have them playing better than our current back four as three of the players are better than their united counterparts.

Kdb is probably the best player on either side and both your wingers and strikers are better than ours.

The gap isn't that big between us two but you do have the more complete and better team for now.

Well no, the point was that this team should go out and put in that kind of performance away to the champions without much managerial instruction. So we can only judge that with the players on the pitch for the game.

It was a nonsense point so it's no surprise the response seems silly. Overall though I think we have a very good squad and I don't doubt that Mourinho would turn us into an equally efficient side using a different approach. I think they're both fantastic managers.

 

[Lentwood]

It's complicated isn't it because undoubtedly Guardiola is very good at elevating sides when he is the players capable of playing his football. The issue which I think his critics are right to point out is that it's all well and good but only works if you can basically sign an entire XI with an unlimited budget every time you walk into a football club

I do not intend this as a criticism but I genuinely believe that if you put Guardiola at Stoke, Everton or WBA, he would just about scrape top half and pull up no trees. Jose, on the other hand, would imo make them top 6 contenders minimum

Having said that, you have to give lots of credit to a coach that can take XI great players and turn them into an incredibly well drilled winning machine who play nice football too

 

[Stocar]

It's a bit silly to assume he wouldn't know how to grind out results playing more opportunistic football. (That's what people think when they say 'flexible'.)

It's obvious he's knowledgeable about football and has the authority and charisma to motivate the players at the highest competitive level. I think it is reasonable to assume he would be at least decent at it.

But that's almost beside the point. He doesn't even try to play that way. The reason managers like him get praise is that they have a different (more elaborate, sophisticated, based on technical skill) vision of the game. Why is that so aggravating for some people?

 

[prtk0811]

It was both really.

Pep improves players. That much is clear. But the player needs to have some solid foundations. Needs to pass well, move well, and be willing to work hard to develop his skills the way Pep needs him to.

I don't think Pep supporters say he raises mediocre players to world class status. He usually improves players, even if it means taking them from a great level to an even greater one.

Ofcourse he does, so does mourinho which is a hype that he does not and those players also must have some foundations in work rate, energy or some degreeof physicality and mentality to be pushed hard.

 

[Keeps It tidy]

This is the biggest gripe I think most have. But really we should embrace it. Fergie loved it too. Us against them.

It is great for the changing room but, it leads to pretty boring Football discussions.

 

[MJJ]

Well no, the point was that this team should go out and put in that kind of performance away to the champions without much managerial instruction. So we can only judge that with the players on the pitch for the game.

It was a nonsense point so it's no surprise the response seems silly. Overall though I think we have a very good squad and I don't doubt that Mourinho would turn us into an equally efficient side using a different approach. I think they're both fantastic managers.

Ah okay, I didn't read the quoted post so didn't get the context. In that case I agree with you, that is a silly point.

 

[Womp]

It was both really.

Pep improves players. That much is clear. But the player needs to have some solid foundations. Needs to pass well, move well, and be willing to work hard to develop his skills the way Pep needs him to.

I don't think Pep supporters say he raises mediocre players to world class status. He usually improves players, even if it means taking them from a great level to an even greater one.

All top managers improve players though.

 

[PepG]

It was both really.

Pep improves players. That much is clear. But the player needs to have some solid foundations. Needs to pass well, move well, and be willing to work hard to develop his skills the way Pep needs him to.

I don't think Pep supporters say he raises mediocre players to world class status. He usually improves players, even if it means taking them from a great level to an even greater one.

Absolutely. Look at Kevin De Bruyne for example. A lot of people (incl here on the Caf) thought that it is ridiculous idea KDB to play a much deeper role than his usual one as an AM, winger or even striker.. They thought he is misused by Pep and can't show his full potential. Year later he still plays deeper and is arguably the best player in the league.

 

[Bubz27]

It is great for the changing room but, it leads to pretty boring Football discussions.

Only if you care about what others think #UsAgainstThem

 

[Womp]

It was both really.

Pep improves players. That much is clear. But the player needs to have some solid foundations. Needs to pass well, move well, and be willing to work hard to develop his skills the way Pep needs him to.

I don't think Pep supporters say he raises mediocre players to world class status. He usually improves players, even if it means taking them from a great level to an even greater one.

All top managers improve players though.

 

[TheRedScot]

Undoubtedly a world class manager. Im pretty sure that every board in the world would have Pep along with Mourinho as there top targets, had they a chance of getting either. Pep even maybe more so than Mourinho.

Had Bayern or Barca an option to bring back Pep, i think they would do in a heartbeat. not sure the same can be said for Mourinho at Real or Chelsea

 

[Womp]

Undoubtedly a world class manager. Im pretty sure that every board in the world would have Pep along with Mourinho as there top targets, had they a chance of getting either. Pep even maybe more so than Mourinho.

Had Bayern or Barca an option to bring back Pep, i think they would do in a heartbeat. not sure the same can be said for Mourinho at Real or Chelsea

Those clubs wouldn't take Jose back because he's a cnut, nothing to do with his ability as a manager.

 

[serghei]

All top managers improve players though.

Only the good ones do. Not all. And to various degrees.

 

[Keeps It tidy]

Only the good ones do. Not all. And to various degrees.

Every manager improves players by some degree.

 

[adz_87]

You sound like a City fan.

Or at least a Guardiola fan in turmoil.

José at Utd - 3 trophies

Guardiola at City - 0 trophies

Please stop counting the charity shield as a trophy.

This post doesn't reflect the truth behind the matter.
City were in the Champions league. They wern't in the Europa because they qualified for the biggest European competition which we wern't good enough to do. Albeit credit to us as there was a lot of pressure on the team and we delivered. As for the league cup you only really take it seriously if your weaker strength side gets you to the semis, then you may as well try and win it.

In a nutshell we both had very different priorities, In europe especially so all this 3-0 to mou is a completely warped way of looking at it.

 

[prtk0811]

Absolutely. Look at Kevin De Bruyne for example. A lot of people (incl here on the Caf) thought that it is ridiculous idea KDB to play a much deeper role than his usual one as an AM, winger or even striker.. They thought he is misused by Pep and can't show his full potential. Year later he still plays deeper and is arguably the best player in the league.

Lvg failed in this with di maria, KDB has a good mentality to play any position the manager wants him to play, and he does not loose the ball.

 

[antihenry]

It's a bit silly to assume he wouldn't know how to grind out results playing more opportunistic football. (That's what people think when they say 'flexible'.)

It's obvious he's knowledgeable about football and has the authority and charisma to motivate the players at the highest competitive level. I think it is reasonable to assume he would be at least decent at it.

But that's almost beside the point. He doesn't even try to play that way. The reason managers like him get praise is that they have a different (more elaborate, sophisticated, based on technical skill) vision of the game. Why is that so aggravating for some people?

Somehow I doubt it. He strikes me as an aloof and arrogant man, used to having his way and not averse to throwing his toys out of the pram when things aren't going well, so the idea of battling for a midtable position with some struggling Stoke side filled with average talent would be unbearable to him.

 

[prtk0811]

Please stop counting the charity shield as a trophy.

This post doesn't reflect the truth behind the matter.
City were in the Champions league. They wern't in the Europa because they qualified for the biggest European competition which we wern't good enough to do. Albeit credit to us as there was a lot of pressure on the team and we delivered. As for the league cup you only really take it seriously if your weaker strength side gets you to the semis, then you may as well try and win it.

In a nutshell we both had very different priorities, In europe especially so all this 3-0 to mou is a completely warped way of looking at it.

Though you have to get the best out of your players and Still have to win something in the end what ever you play for. And we did it with an unbalanced team.

Tottenham had a better season than pep's city last season in terms of league finishes and playing against top teams no one waxes lyrical about them but its all pep and not pochetino but goes on to mention them as a team who needs to win something in every punditry out there.

 

[Womp]

Somehow I doubt it. He strikes me as an aloof and arrogant man, used to having his way and not averse to throwing his toys out of the pram when things aren't going well, so the idea of battling for a midtable position with some struggling Stoke side filled with average talent would be unbearable to him.

He was going fecking crazy last season after a few bad results at a team with infinite resources. As great a manager he is, he wouldn't cut it at a mid-table team. He's made it blindingly obvious that if a player can't follow his instructions they get replaced by a player who can.

 

[Stocar]

Somehow I doubt it. He strikes me as an aloof and arrogant man, used to having his way and not averse to throwing his toys out of the pram when things aren't going well, so the idea of battling for a midtable position with some struggling Stoke side filled with average talent would be unbearable to him.

Maybe, but like I said, it's beside the point. And the point is that he obviously has a vision of football that requires some really good coaching to work out. Some people find the vision admirable, and I'd say the coaching ability is undeniable. Nothing more than that.

 

[adz_87]

Though you have to get the best out of your players and Still have to win something in the end what ever you play for. And we did it with an unbalanced team.

Tottenham had a better season than pep's city last season in terms of league finishes and playing against top teams no one waxes lyrical about them but its all pep and not pochetino but goes on to mention them as a team who needs to win something in every punditry out there.

Yeah, I fully agree with you. Based on his post though saying mou 3-0 Guardiola is just ridiculous.

Had city had been in the Europa they most likely would have won it to in my opinion. It's only fair to give it the biggen if both teams had gone toe to toe which when they did city more or less came out on top.

 

[Treble]

It is not easy to manage top clubs as the expectations are huge.

The notion that anyone can do well with top players is naive.

Case in point from this week: Ancelotti. Case in point from 2 years ago: Jose and Klopp when their teams were in the bottom half of the respective tables. Or LVG the same season.

Case in point from 2008: Rijkaard had a squad full with talent and finished 3rd (or 4th?) in La Liga.

There are many examples of good manаgers failing at top clubs with great squads.

 

[amolbhatia50k]

He had an opportunity to prove it last season, he inherited a decent side, spent a fair bit and they were shite. He ended the season with nothing.

Spending another 250m quid or whatever it was to then get his team to play nice Pep football is great and all, but it also shows a lack of inflexibility, as does his recent response to Mendy's injury.

There's not much between the job Mourinho and Pep have done at united and city respectively. Does it prove Mourinho is no longer to do it with limited resources. I mean like Pep he had his chance last season right?

 

[amolbhatia50k]

That's why SAF managed to only win it twice in his 20 odds years then. And why no team, until last year ever retained it.

Strange that is finally got retained when
it apparently is much stronger now.

It got retained because the teams are getting stronger. Teams Porto would get slapped by today.

It's obviously harder to win today. You have no argument. Who would Porto prefer to face? That Monaco side or Real Madrid/Barcelona?

 

[amolbhatia50k]

You sound like a City fan.

Or at least a Guardiola fan in turmoil.

José at Utd - 3 trophies

Guardiola at City - 0 trophies

You sound like a child.

 

[prtk0811]

It got retained because the teams are getting stronger. Teams Porto would get slapped by today.

It's obviously harder to win today. You have no argument. Who would Porto prefer to face? That Monaco side or Real Madrid/Barcelona?

Is zidane as good a manager or even better manager than pep too?

 

[amolbhatia50k]

Its september though, and nither us or pep has won anything yet. Okay Chelsea were poor yesterday but it was just one goal in the end which was a brilliant individual goal rather than a team goal.

Of course. We could well go on to win the league and it'll be great if his defence struggles. And I'll criticize him it. Till now I'm not seeing a big difference between Jose and Pep and I'm calling it as a I see it. Don't see any point in having double stardards calling him chequebook manager while we spend big and till recently held the record for the biggest fee.

The title is definitely up for grabs. Hopefully Jose beats pep to the title and takes control of this phase of their rivalry.

 

[amolbhatia50k]

Is zidane as good a manager or even better manager than pep too?

Appears to be a quality manager. Time will tell how good he is compared to others.

What does that have to do with this thread?

 

[antihenry]

Maybe, but like I said, it's beside the point. And the point is that he obviously has a vision of football that requires some really good coaching to work out. Some people find the vision admirable, and I'd say the coaching ability is undeniable. Nothing more than that.

No, that is the point, actually. So far it appears that unless Guardiola has a near perfect squad filled with top quality players with certain characteristics, he's unable to execute his ideas and realize his vision on the pitch. Mourinho and Conte won the league title with this Chelsea side. Pep wouldn't have, because the current Chelsea squad is not equipped to play his style of football. If, let's say, he ended up at Chelsea instead of City, he'd have had to spend probably even more money to assemble the squad he needs in order to play his type of football and attempt to win something. That's a major flaw in my opinion.

 

[Donk87]

You sound like a City fan.

Or at least a Guardiola fan in turmoil.

José at Utd - 3 trophies

Guardiola at City - 0 trophies

Nope, he sounds like a United fan objectively discussing football. You should try it some time. It's fun.

Also does the charity shield really count as a trophy? Sweet, that means we've won 6 trophies in the last 4 years making us the most successful club in the country in that time!

Spending another 250m quid or whatever it was to then get his team to play nice Pep football is great and all, but it also shows a lack of inflexibility, as does his recent response to Mendy's injury.

So you're saying he's flexible?

His response to the Mendy injury is being overblown. He was asked if he was going to buy in Jan, confirmed they'd already been planning to get competition for Mendy next summer and may bring that forward though they had people who could do the job there. Not sure how folks can criticise him for that.

 

[SwansonsTache]

Who is this LB they are reportedly looking at in January? We could do with one, and if they've identified him he is likely good.

 

[TheRedScot]

No, that is the point, actually. So far it appears that unless Guardiola has a near perfect squad filled with top quality players with certain characteristics, he's unable to execute his ideas and realize his vision on the pitch. Mourinho and Conte won the league title with this Chelsea side. Pep wouldn't have, because the current Chelsea squad is not equipped to play his style of football. If, let's say, he ended up at Chelsea instead of City, he'd have had to spend probably even more money to assemble the squad he needs in order to play his type of football and attempt to win something. That's a major flaw in my opinion.

Chelsea have had the best squad in the premiership or at the very least the second best squad the past 3 years. you don't think that pep could have had hazard, Fabregas, Willian, Pedro, Matic playing exactly the way city are playing now?. Hazard would also hugely benefit from a pep as a coach, he would also see alot more of the ball against the big teams. Chelsea would sack Conte tomorrow if they thought they could get pep.

 

[cyberman]

Chelsea have had the best squad in the premiership or at the very least the second best squad the past 3 years. you don't think that pep could have had hazard, Fabregas, Willian, Pedro, Matic playing exactly the way city are playing now?. Hazard would also hugely benefit from a pep as a coach, he would also see alot more of the ball against the big teams. Chelsea would sack Conte tomorrow if they thought they could get pep.

Nope, I dont think Pep alters his style like Conte did. Pep didn't with his City side last year, he just waited until the summer and started again.
Just look at the posts when Pep took over with everyone claiming City had the best squad in the league. That can't be redacted with hindsight.

 

[TheRedScot]

Nope, I dont think Pep alters his style like Conte did. Pep didn't with his City side last year, he just waited until the summer and started again.
Just look at the posts when Pep took over with everyone claiming City had the best squad in the league. That can't be redacted with hindsight.

That's not true with Conte though. he came to Chelsea and tried to set up differently the first few games with no success. he was extremely exposed so reverted back to his trusted 343 from his Juventus tenure. So if anything it proves Conte to be more one dimensional than Pep. Conte looked utter clueless yesterday. Peps tactics were genius. theres no way A dummy like walker and a player like Delph would have known to tuck inside to out number the midfield. And and sane and Sterling staying so high and wide it pinned back the wing backs of Chelsea. Still stand by my point, Chelsea would sack Conte Tomorrow if they could have Pep. Infact i think every club in world football bar United and Madrid would do the same.

 

[cyberman]

That's not true with Conte though. he came to Chelsea and tried to set up differently the first few games with no success. he was extremely exposed so reverted back to his trusted 343 from his Juventus tenure. So if anything it proves Conte to be more one dimensional than Pep. Conte looked utter clueless yesterday. Peps tactics were genius. theres no way A dummy like walker and a player like Delph would have known to tuck inside to out number the midfield. And and sane and Sterling staying so high and wide it pinned back the wing backs of Chelsea. Still stand by my point, Chelsea would sack Conte Tomorrow if they could have Pep. Infact i think every club in world football bar United and Madrid would do the same.

Pep wouldnt have managed the squad as well though. Theres no chance in hell he plays Moses and Alonso as wingbacks, he'd have kept who he already had and again waited for the summer.
Theres no way he doesn't overhaul a squad who finished 7th (?) the year before. Pep simply spends money.

 

[El cangrejo]

Has Guardiola created anything particularly special outside of the Barcelona team he inherited? I certainly didn't see anything particularly special during his Bayern tenure or last season with City.

Did you watch his Bayern side play in the Bundesliga very often? Probably the most dominant I've ever seen a team be in one of the major European leagues.