It's a fair point too. Like that saying about "show me a good loser and I'll show you a loser". All well and good when you hardly ever lose but if you're going to make losing a habit then you need to learn to lose with a bit of grace (or draw, as it applies to Mourinho) He's just a very dislikeable person. Always has been, always will be. I guess we have to suck it up, as the price we pay for finally having a really top manager in charge. Not ideal but there you go.
Is Mou still 'The Special One' for you all?
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It's a fair point too. Like that saying about "show me a good loser and I'll show you a loser". All well and good when you hardly ever lose but if you're going to make losing a habit then you need to learn to lose with a bit of grace (or draw, as it applies to Mourinho) He's just a very dislikeable person. Always has been, always will be. I guess we have to suck it up, as the price we pay for finally having a really top manager in charge. Not ideal but there you go.
The difference is that despite his flaws you could look past them to a certain extent because of what else he provided, the type of volatile and divisive manager that he is now makes it a lot harder to do that.
Just because his previous methods worked, doesn't mean they always will.
His previous methods worked 2 years ago and we are unbeaten in 19 games with a squad he has barely instilled his values on/improved. Using that sample size, what makes you think he's finished? Using that logic Pep's tactics won't work forever too, he's knocked out of everything except the mere FA cup.
But it's okay, you made it abundantly clear you don't like him, so your mind is made up, no point continuing.
I really don't like that anti-football tactics excuse. All the other teams put 10 men in the box at Stamford Bridge, Anfield, Etihad, Emirates, White Hart Lane and most of the time the home team puts 2 or 3 past them, winning easily. I think we have 2 main problems; 1) Overly-reliant on Zlatan - no one else seems to score apart from Mata who is also out for a long period now, and 2) our team is still in the gelling process, though I don't know how long that takes cos I'm not a manager. However, Conte showed that it is possible for it not to take very long considering he implemented new formation, tactics and players and got them winning straight after the Arsenal defeat.
I didn't say he was finished but like any manager they have to adapt over time and sometimes adjust their methods and managerial style.
Strange how fans are very critical of players if they don't instantly perform but somehow we hear about how a manager has to buy "his own players" and "given time" before being evaluated properly.
I don't know why people need to create this narrative that SAF was as bad (depending on how you look at it) as Mourinho in the latter's alleged areas of weakness.
Sir Alex didn't have a habit of calling out his players. He kept things in house till it reached a certain level of intolerance. It's only because his tenure spanned decades that you get all these instances of singling out.
For Mourinho, it's as much his way as anything else. If anything goes wrong he's quick to find a player to single out, or question the attitude of. He uses it much more tactically as opposed to a last resort, which is why he's singled out about 500 players in less than a year.
Now, you could argue that a forthright player is what we need and that may be true. But I have my doubts since I don't see him apply his standards consitently. His record signing Pogba is immune from criticism whereas LVGs signings such as Martial are always targeted.
Again, I don't see a problem with liking his approach. He is confrontational and it has worked in the past. But we don't need to pretend SAF did exactly the same things. They were different people even if people fine that hard to believe.
Yep, lets just keep sacking managers after a year, let's see how long it takes before we're in the Championship with a squad full of players with different ideals and no consistency.
Also, I never judge players after a year, people take time to adapt, they're not robots.
A very weak squad? We have one of the top 3 squads in the league, if not the top one. If I'd say we have one weakness it would be the striker department. We only have Zlatan.
And this also is not an excuse, since Spurs, Chelsea, City only have Kane, Costa and Aguero as their main strikers. The only difference is that they have goals coming from all over the team, not just 1 guy so it affects them less when their main striker doesn't play.
That is highly debatable.
It's because we don't. Not in terms of individual ability or in terms of a unit. We need a LB who can actually attack, a winger who can provide width as we have literally none, we need a replacement to rotate Valencia, we need one or two more CM's and a striker.
Thats how I feel. I keep hearing Nani used as the stick. over 20 years there have been literally a handful of occasions if that. I felt his book revealed more about what was going on behind closed doors, but he could have revealed so much more publicly if that was his method.
Not sure what he is at the moment. Big month for him and us.
I dont know mate, I think you have it the wrong way around. I mean Im with you on the broader point that he is our best bet going forward, has improved us and has a track record that deserves respect. I am not aligning myself with @JON.B here at all. But people who say he has lost his aura are, I believe, looking at his results, not (first and foremost) his personality. And more importantly, the biggest reason for his change in personality is the results, not the other way around. How can you strut around the place like "the special one" when you are in 5th or 6th, and your team isnt scoring goals? Its not a question of maturity, he has had this new humble attitude imposed on him by circumstances, i.e. Chelsea collapsing and us underwhelming.
That's not to say he hasnt changed. If and when he gets us back to the top I imagine he will be a bit more gracious, a bit more mindful of how fickle fate can be, and the fact that he could find himself in this situation again. I think he has matured but it is the experience of losing that has caused it.
But the fans will measure him on results, not what he says. That is what has tarnished his aura.
I'll never call him or anyone else "the special one", it's a stupid and unnecessary tagline. I do however think he's the right man for the job. It's unfortunate that some of our fans are desperately looking for ways to undermine and belittle him, though. His management of players with bad attitudes and poor work ethics is spot on, but he gets slated for it.
I agree pal, that's how it should be, he should be judged on his ability as a manager, but that doesn't seem to be the case around here. People just genuinely don't seem to like him. I'm just on the boat that thinks it's far too early to assume the most successful manager of our era (apart from SAF) is finished because of one bad year.
Guess we'll see soon enough
Agree 100%.
And you are right, of course, a lot of people just dont like him, be that because of the way he approaches football or the things he says. That much was clear when we discussed his prospective appointment last season. I have some sympathy with that, but at the end of the day results are all that really matter.
He's the right man for the job. We're much improved this season, the league position is disappointing but it's clear we're moving in the right direction unlike under the last two managers. We're still unbeaten in the league for months, with a defence containing Smalling, Jones, Rojo, a RW converted to fullback, and no set left sided RB. Jose isn't getting enough credit for this imo.
We'll spend more money over the summer and goals will come. Overall, the squad is looking weary after a long season, we've been missing our best players, it doesn't reflect long term on the good job Jose has done so far.
We'll spend more money over the summer and goals will come. Overall, the squad is looking weary after a long season, we've been missing our best players, it doesn't reflect long term on the good job Jose has done so far.
I'm without doubt ready to give him this summer to strengthen the squad his way and next season to show what he can do. A strong year, including the good performances in the cups we've seen this term and strong consolidation into the top three, would be a real sign of progress and I would be hugely optimistic for the future under Jose.
That said if the likes of Martial, Shaw and Rashford are marginalised/show the door in summer and the replacements are still misfiring I would be very worried indeed. Jose will rightly get at least another year in charge but we need concrete signs of improvement. Next season is make for break for Jose at United.
Not the Special one for me.
But the Right one. For now.
We need his hard-boiled approach (among other many benefits), to bring our club back to be Champion.
I'm not impress with his player-management skills so far, and am not a fan of short term manager, but we'll discuss that after Mourinho is done 'fixing' the team with the right kind of mentality ~ to be the very best.
But the Right one. For now.
We need his hard-boiled approach (among other many benefits), to bring our club back to be Champion.
I'm not impress with his player-management skills so far, and am not a fan of short term manager, but we'll discuss that after Mourinho is done 'fixing' the team with the right kind of mentality ~ to be the very best.
I agree. It's mainly this set of players just aren't good enough. Jose will sort that out eventually. Will take time though.
Don't think he's actively pushing any of them out the door. Rashford and Martial have both been very underwhelming this season and have still had plenty of game time whereas with Shaw it seems to be a case of expecting more. I am sure he has an understanding of the players he thinks have the mentality to be champions and will replace the ones that don't.
I agree with you on everything else though, we have been a shambles for years, we aren't going to become the winning machine we were overnight, but all I want to see is improvements, proof we are back on the right track
He's a bit of a prick but he's alright most of the time. Brilliant manager and to be quite honest most managers are pricks anyway.
A lot of our players don't have winning mentalitys. You can't change that right away. No rash judgements till end of next season at least.
Fair enough, I'm not advocating Jose's success at United hinges on keeping these three players in his plans. I strongly feel that a manager should be able to craft his squad in whatever manner he sees fit, even at the detriment of fan favourite/promising/expensive players. You just get the feeling there should be something special coming from these guys and if Jose can't get the best from them there would rightly be questions asked as to why.
You get the feeling Jose is looking for characters. He knows full well the likes of Young and Fellaini are not going to get us back on top but likes their attitude. That won't be enough going forward but for now a limited player fighting for the cause beats a talented player with a poor mentality.
Jose is looking for men. I believe in him.
I don't think you can get to elite management levels without being a bit of a prick, whether its being cold/heartless behind the scenes (team selection, transfers out of the club), being arrogant and believing you are the sole reason for the success of the club or playing games with media.
Yup. The famous Graeme Souness quote "show me a good loser and I'll show you a loser" is something that has stuck with me.
Winners want to win - and win at all costs.
That's the best way to go about it IMO. I don't see why we need to paint him as a villain or a hero when he's not done anything to warrant either yet. If he was getting us playing smashing football I'd laud him. If we're sat in 6th place with 4th looking unlikely then he'll be criticised. Most here expected a title challenge this season from both pep and Jose. People said that our said was ready with the summer signings. But both mangers have not managed that but one gets mocked while the other defended to the hilt and almost revered.
Jose will be here next season and rightfully so. But no CL football after spending 150 million would mean a failure of a season and I'm sure he'd admit that. I really hope it doesn't come to that.
Agreed. Much of the last 4 years serves as a constant reminder as to how incredible SAF was. There truly is noone like him. Jose may have won two league titles over him but there's no comparison between the two. And that's not even a slight on Jose. The Scotsman was in a league of his own. His handling of pressure, of people, of youngsters, of a style of play, of representing the club, not to mention the trophies, we'll never see that again. We might see one or two aspects, but for all of it to be brought together by one man. Genius.
OK but we are trying to discuss his abilities as a football manager, not the state of his marriage now he is living in Manchester on his own.
Not sure where you get that idea? Sounds like a straw man to me. This place is full of criticism of the manager. In fact, that's arguably what the majority of posts about him consist of.
The only real grief anyone gets for writing him off are accusations of impatience. Which is fair enough. Everyone has different options about his handling of players/the press/whatever. And they're allowed to express them freely.
Nobody's told him about Canal Street yet.
Does the street sign still say "anal treet"?
.I'm interested in how people judge this.
Is it by success? Because once a team achieves things, they are naturally gauged to have the right personality. So are we unsuccessful because of our players having the wrong mentality or are we lacking in footballing areas and the conveniently go-to reason for failure is personality.
Or Is it by outward personalities? Because Pogba was claimed to be the kind of personality we needed but on the pitch his personality comes in for a lot of criticism. He's often called lazy and careless, and players like Herrera look to be more sorted than him in this area (barring one silly red card).
So that's the question marks on how we measure it. But either way let's look at us and other teams regardless.
Our defence is very good and nothing points to it holding us back. In central midifield, Carrick definitely has the right mentality, Herrera has the right mentality and it's only Pogba who actually has a question mark over him. In fact, he may just need to rein in his "personality" a tad if anything. Out wide we have inexperience so I wouldn't say that's a personality issue, it's more a patience issue. Ronaldo was a frustrating winger at 20. Some big personality he had. And then upfront we have Ibra who is awesome in this aspect.
Now is the above so much worse in terms of "personality" than Chelsea ? The same Chelsea who people said had disgraceful personality when defending Jose last season. So if Chelsea have the right mentality then what was Jose doing last season?
My personal view is that people put too much stock into these things. We have footballing issues imo and I'd like to see Mourinho make more in football terms with what he has. Take Martial, Rashford, Ibra, Pogba, Mkhitarian places instead of desperately needing 10 other world class players who have already won lots.
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There's a poster who literally said that.
For me the jury is out until after the summers transfer window. He clearly has zero faith in the depth of his squad, some of which is worrying, some of which is understandable. I'm consoling myself with some of his selections being the 'best of a bad bunch' in his mind. Gutted TFM didn't get a run out on Saturday, not saying he's the answer, but surely he could be party to an answer?!
If he gets through another transfer window and still thinks Marouane Fellaini is a Man Utd midfielder, then I'll be seriously reassessing José. Very frustrating at times (more often than not) but I have more faith in José than LVG. The football is better (toom any draws at home, but remember last season? woeful), we're taking more shots (although still nowhere near enough).
Like I said, another transfer window, cut more dead weight, bring in more quality & see how we are at Christmas.
If he gets through another transfer window and still thinks Marouane Fellaini is a Man Utd midfielder, then I'll be seriously reassessing José. Very frustrating at times (more often than not) but I have more faith in José than LVG. The football is better (toom any draws at home, but remember last season? woeful), we're taking more shots (although still nowhere near enough).
Like I said, another transfer window, cut more dead weight, bring in more quality & see how we are at Christmas.
In an ideal world that's what everyone would want, Jose included, but when it comes to youth there is no set trajectory. They could be brilliant next season, but they could equally be just as disappointing as they've been this season. They're going to be inconsistent and have terrible patches of form. We need to invest in the squad for numerous reasons, for the youngsters sakes too. We can't expect kids to get us out of this rut we've been going through for years now, it's not fair on them. Unfortunately the competition is just too strong now, we can't afford to put all our faith in players who clearly aren't ready.
By signing the right players, not only will we be improving the obvious weakness' in our squad, we'd be burdening some of the expectation onto more experienced/better players instead of youngsters and we'd be allowing them to improve and learn the game at their own pace. (Assuming we don't loan them out, of course)
Also, mentality is the most important aspect for a footballer imo. Some players were just made to be mid-table players, not because of ability but because of mentality, Morrison being a key example of this. I'm assuming that's what the poster meant when he spoke about what Jose was looking for. Players who want to win at all costs and will do absolutely everything required to do so.
Herrera is a great example of this, why he's my favourite player, gives everything he has to win.
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Mocked and revered in what sense? Do you expect United posters on a United board to ridicule their manager like they would Benítez, Pep, Wenger and co? As with most things - there's a spectrum of opinions - loads of opposition supporters mock Mourinho at every turn (which is fair enough - football support is often based on tribalism and even from an objective standpoint, some criticism in warranted), and so do a lot of United fans - ranging from those that that are a bit reserved and atleast take things in context, to those that criticize every second move and give him little in ways of benefit of doubt to those that hysterically want him to 'feck off at the end of the season' or 'hope he gets the sack, because [sic] I can't stand the miserable prick'.
What is Jose up to besides sulking on the sidelines ?
A post that many in the thread declared was a 'great post'.
It's pretty similar to the vitriol some (a brave few) Liverpool supporters seem to receive on RAWK if they even dare criticise a player or the manager.
The Rooney comments were a bit odd though, it gave Moyes / Woodward (both of which were new and out of their depth at that time) a massive problem to solve - one of which we royally fecked up.
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