Is Mou still 'The Special One' for you all?

[MoskvaRed]

But LvG did qualify for the CL in his 1st season, if Jose doesn't serious questions need to be asked.

I am not arguing with your basic premise that it's not good enough. But it's April and we are where we are, and we need to think how do we get out of this rut (let's assume worst case of not winning Europa League and finishing below 4th). Does Mourinho deserve the sack? Well, I certainly expected more given his reputation and there is a lingering fear he's burnt out. On the other hand, I'd argue the quality of our squad is behind Chelsea, City and Spurs (in terms of attackers, we are way behind the first two) and so it becomes a fight with a team with no mid-week football distractions under a manager in his second season and the 4th place trophy specialists. So, I don't see a compelling reason to sack him after less than a year (unlike the disastrous Moyes) and getting a new man in (who will also come with no guarantees, whoever he is) involves a trip back to square one while he analyses the squad etc. So the better option is to keep the faith a bit longer. And there's no need to warn Mourinho - he knows the rules of the game at this level and expects a lot better himself.

 

[Pogue Mahone]

True but he cant buy 20 new players to his liking, he should be doing better with what he has.

Did it occur to you that signing one or two new players (no, not 20) can be a catalyst to doing better with that we already have?

This whole "it's the squad" vs "it's the manager" debate is absurd. You can't separate the two. Yes, you need a manager to get the utmost out of every player at our club and that's clearly not happened this season. However, that doesn't mean that we don't need to sign any more players. There's every chance that (for example) having another elite striker sharing the burden with Ibra would result in more goals, more wins, more confidence and better performances from everyone else. It's not as though it's hard to think of examples when the missing piece in a jigsaw can drag up the level of everyone else around him. Suarez at Liverpool being one of the most obvious examples. The season after he left, the exact same players under the exact same manager looked a shadow of their former selves.

I would argue that Kante is having a similarly talismanic effect at Chelsea, albeit for different reasons. Nobody is saying we need to buy 20 new players. But it's certainly not crazy to suggest that we could dramatically improve with a couple more tweaks to our squad. Tweaks that might not have been apparent to Mourinho during the summer.

 

[rocks13]

Did it occur to you that signing one or two new players (no, not 20) can be a catalyst to doing better with that we already have?

This whole "it's the squad" vs "it's the manager" debate is absurd. You can't separate the two. Yes, you need a manager to get the utmost out of every player at our club and that's clearly not happened this season. However, that doesn't mean that we don't need to sign any more players. There's every chance that (for example) having another elite striker sharing the burden with Ibra would result in more goals, more wins, more confidence and better performances from everyone else. It's not as though it's hard to think of examples when the missing piece in a jigsaw can drag up the level of everyone else around him. Suarez at Liverpool being one of the most obvious examples. The season after he left, the exact same players under the exact same manager looked a shadow of their former selves.

I would argue that Kante is having a similarly talismanic effect at Chelsea, albeit for different reasons. Nobody is saying we need to buy 20 new players. But it's certainly not crazy to suggest that we could dramatically improve with a couple more tweaks to our squad. Tweaks that might not have been apparent to Mourinho during the summer.

The same could be said for changing manager. Maybe we should give Craig Shakespeare a call.

 

[amolbhatia50k]

Coutinho, Kane and Alli are superb.

Secondly, I do not think United should be benchmarking our attackers against those of Liverpool and Spurs.

We are within a few points of them as we have similar quality teams. That shouldn't and won't be the case in the future with Mourinho and our resources.

Next season is when I expect us to really kick on.

Pogba, Mkhitarian and Ibra aren't super? We should compare ourselves to those teams because we are losing top 4 to them and spending more. It's too easy to claim we have inferior players to the best and hence need better. At least get the best out of what you have.

 

[amolbhatia50k]

Mata has been better than Mkhitaryan

That, too. Possibly also because mourinho has spent a lot of the season playing players that aren't our best.

 

[amolbhatia50k]

Have not reached world class standards and also been very inconsistent. Plenty of reasons why, but those do not negate this fact.

Pogba also not an attacker and has a whole set of other issues that require improvement.

For us, yes. It's up to Jose to ensure top players we've signed for 130 odd million perform like top players. If they play way worse than they did elsewhere again he has to answer for that. Leaving them out to teach them "lessons" isn't enough.

 

[Pogue Mahone]

For us, yes. It's up to Jose to ensure top players we've signed for 130 odd million perform like top players. If they play way worse than they did elsewhere again he has to answer for that. Leaving them out to teach them "lessons" isn't enough.

Just like every other manager who - shock horror - was unable to get new signings to perform at their very best in their debut season for a new team, in a new league? I swear to god some of ye have lost your minds. There's literally dozens of examples of top class footballers who only started to look the real deal in their second and subsequent seasons of PL football. Including Luis Suarez (mentioned on this very fecking page) and some of the best players we've had at United in the last decade or two. But when the knives are out for the manager none of that matters, right? It's all got to happen now, now, now or someone needs a sacking. Pathetic.

 

[anant]

We keep saying that this isn't Jose's team but among our 5 best performers this season- Herrera, Valencia, Rojo, Zlatan and Mata- only 1 has been a Mourinho signing. It's not like his signings have been tearing the league apart. Sure Bailley has been good, Mkhi and Pog have shown glimpses but if you're spending 500m over 3 years, you want success as well. We have played better football in general than we have over last 4-5,6 years and in all honesty, at the beginning of the season, all I wanted was good football and youth being given a chance irrespective of the results. But the results part comes into the picture and takes the centre-stage once you break the world transfer fee record.
We are one of the most expensive squads in football and we are struggling to finish in top 4 sides in the country let alone the continent. Our progress in last 3 years after spending 500m has been overtaking Everton!

 

[Sammyjunn]

Did it occur to you that signing one or two new players (no, not 20) can be a catalyst to doing better with that we already have?

This whole "it's the squad" vs "it's the manager" debate is absurd. You can't separate the two. Yes, you need a manager to get the utmost out of every player at our club and that's clearly not happened this season. However, that doesn't mean that we don't need to sign any more players. There's every chance that (for example) having another elite striker sharing the burden with Ibra would result in more goals, more wins, more confidence and better performances from everyone else. It's not as though it's hard to think of examples when the missing piece in a jigsaw can drag up the level of everyone else around him. Suarez at Liverpool being one of the most obvious examples. The season after he left, the exact same players under the exact same manager looked a shadow of their former selves.

I would argue that Kante is having a similarly talismanic effect at Chelsea, albeit for different reasons. Nobody is saying we need to buy 20 new players. But it's certainly not crazy to suggest that we could dramatically improve with a couple more tweaks to our squad. Tweaks that might not have been apparent to Mourinho during the summer.

Im not disputing that, one missing link can be the difference between challenging for the league and top 6, that's right. Although Im not too hopeful as the last such player we signed was van Persie. But yet again, lets say we dont sign such a player, we need to go to tactics, game plan, and approach which suit our entire squad the best and can get most out of them, which isnt the case so far. However he deserves at least another season to build this team more to his liking and see what he can get out of it. I think we looked better earlier this season and were making huge steps, we seem to have fallen back a bit, but maybe we can progress again with some changes.

 

[rocks13]

Just like every other manager who - shock horror - was unable to get new signings to perform at their very best in their debut season for a new team, in a new league? I swear to god some of ye have lost your minds. There's literally dozens of examples of top class footballers who only started to look the real deal in their second and subsequent seasons of PL football. Including Luis Suarez (mentioned on this very fecking page) and some of the best players we've had at United in the last decade or two. But when the knives are out for the manager none of that matters, right? It's all got to happen now, now, now or someone needs a sacking. Pathetic.

Agreed. We should definitely have given Moyes more time to get the best from Fellaini.

 

[Attila]

Agreed. We should definitely have given Moyes more time

Don't really understand that comment considering Moyes signings came from the PL

 

[rocks13]

Don't really understand that comment considering Moyes signings came from the PL

Still need time to settle with a new team.

 

[Pogue Mahone]

Im not disputing that, one missing link can be the difference between challenging for the league and top 6, that's right. Although Im not too hopeful as the last such player we signed was van Persie. But yet again, lets say we dont sign such a player, we need to go to tactics, game plan, and approach which suit our entire squad the best and can get most out of them, which isnt the case so far. However he deserves at least another season to build this team more to his liking and see what he can get out of it. I think we looked better earlier this season and were making huge steps, we seem to have fallen back a bit, but maybe we can progress again with some changes.

Well I'm on the same page as you, so. I think he needs another season. I hope that this involves getting more out of who we already have (new signings settling into the league and everyone else upping their game if we get a bit of momentum/confidence back) and maybe one or two top signings to replace big players that we're phasing out e.g. Rooney/Carrick. I've a horrible feeling we need another centre-half too. I certainly don't want a massive overhaul. If anything, I think the number of changes to our best XI from last season is a factor in our underwhelming season. Our best XI has new players in almost every area of the pitch. I always think teams with a more settled starting XI at the beginning of the season end up doing the best. The last thing we need now is a whole load of new players (or another new manager)

 

[Pogue Mahone]

Still need time to settle with a new team.

Did the "new league" bit go completely over your head?

Just in case, I'll break it down for you. Signing PL players usually (but not always) means they will settle quicker. Mata being an obvious example.

 

[Moonwalker]

I take heart from this thread. There are promising signs of negativity (at long last).

People bemoaning the lack of patience, should also take heart, because contrary to popular belief - our board has, in relative terms, shown a lot of it. Moyes has been given more time than he would have got anywhere else, and even Van Gaal would have stayed for three seasons, but for the fact that somebody from the very top of the managerial food chain was available last summer. Mourinho need not worry about that. His credentials are unrivaled, and the 'give managers time' theme gains credence with each unsuccessful alternation. He will be given every chance to succeed and more time.

What you shouldn't expect though, is him using that time to: sign all the players you have fantasised about, get the team to play beautiful football, develop youngsters, man manage brilliantly, mature as a person & embody the dormant spirit of the United of yore.

 

[Pogue Mahone]

We keep saying that this isn't Jose's team but among our 5 best performers this season- Herrera, Valencia, Rojo, Zlatan and Mata- only 1 has been a Mourinho signing. It's not like his signings have been tearing the league apart. Sure Bailley has been good, Mkhi and Pog have shown glimpses but if you're spending 500m over 3 years, you want success as well. We have played better football in general than we have over last 4-5,6 years and in all honesty, at the beginning of the season, all I wanted was good football and youth being given a chance irrespective of the results. But the results part comes into the picture and takes the centre-stage once you break the world transfer fee record.
We are one of the most expensive squads in football and we are struggling to finish in top 4 sides in the country let alone the continent. Our progress in last 3 years after spending 500m has been overtaking Everton!

Bailley, Mikhi and Pog have all shown enough to show they could be excellent players for us. Far more than Herrera and Rojo had shown at the equivalent point in their United careers. And the fact that these two are looking so much better now is even more evidence that we can hope to see more from Mourinho's signings in seasons to come.

 

[rocks13]

Did the "new league" bit go completely over your head?

Just in case, I'll break it down for you. Signing PL players usually (but not always) means they will settle quicker. Mata being an obvious example.

Ok, so you think Van Gaal should have been given more time to allow Memphis, Darmian, Schweinsteiger etc to settle in. But unfair to sack him after only having those players for a year.

 

[Pogue Mahone]

Ok, so you think Van Gaal should have been given more time to allow Memphis, Darmian, Schweinsteiger etc to settle in. But unfair to sack him after only having those players for a year.

Van Gaal should have been sacked for doing worse in his second season than he did in his first. Obviously. So whether his signings would improve this season is a moot point.

There's a good chance that all his signings would have done better this season had he stayed in charge, just like Hererra and Rojo. It's also possible they were never good enough. They certainly didn't come close to showing the same promise we've seen from Mourinho's signings in their first season with the club.

 

[norm87cro]

Well I think the mentality is right and that is something we've been lacking during the LVG era. I really didn't mind his negative tactics apart from the last 20 minutes against Boro. But as long as I see players going that extra step for him (and I do irrespective of the players capability) we will surely progress. As far as for CL football goes, at this moment its only a better way to attract top players since we don't have any chance of winning it.

 

[rocks13]

Van Gaal should have been sacked for doing worse in his second season than he did in his first. Obviously. So whether his signings would improve this season is a moot point.

There's a good chance that all his signings would have done better this season had he stayed in charge, just like Hererra and Rojo. It's also possible they were never good enough. They certainly didn't come close to showing the same promise we've seen from Mourinho's signings in their first season with the club.

Dropping one league place but offset by winning a trophy - hardly a massive decline. Its probably what Mourinho is going to do this year.

And I'd say Martial showed much more promise last season than any of Mourinho's signings.

 

[Sammyjunn]

Well I'm on the same page as you, so. I think he needs another season. I hope that this involves getting more out of who we already have (new signings settling into the league and everyone else upping their game if we get a bit of momentum/confidence back) and maybe one or two top signings to replace big players that we're phasing out e.g. Rooney/Carrick. I've a horrible feeling we need another centre-half too. I certainly don't want a massive overhaul. If anything, I think the number of changes to our best XI from last season is a factor in our underwhelming season. Our best XI has new players in almost every area of the pitch. I always think teams with a more settled starting XI at the beginning of the season end up doing the best. The last thing we need now is a whole load of new players (or another new manager)

Agreed, some excellent and well-thought about signings could improve us a lot. I think one midfielder, one attacker or winger and one too/world class CB who would strengthen us immediately. A complete overhaul isnt realistic and will work counterwise. I hope we can get back into the right direction soon though, after a few good months with excellent play (when Ibra went dry but was playing excellent to when he scored every match) has been followed by a rough patch, we dont play as good recently.

 

[anant]

Bailley, Mikhi and Pog have all shown enough to show they could be excellent players for us. Far more than Herrera and Rojo had shown at the equivalent point in their United careers. And the fact that these two are looking so much better now is even more evidence that we can hope to see more from Mourinho's signings in seasons to come.

Herrera and Rojo weren't transfer fee records. Bailley has done well and we've a gem in him, but if you are the most expensive defender in club's history, I want him to do more. Ditto for Pogba. You don't spend 89m on potential. If I'm spending such an insane amount I want instant results- like RM saw with bale, CR7, and all their record signings

 

[Pogue Mahone]

Dropping one league place but offset by winning a trophy - hardly a massive decline. Its probably what Mourinho is going to do this year.

Still a decline. And a decline against what he achieved the previous year i.e. no progress under his reign over the course of two seasons. If a team shows no progess under a new manager over two seasons then it's hard to justify giving him another year in charge.

Fecking hell, this is obvious shit. Why do I have to keep dumbing down stuff for you?

And I'd say Martial showed much more promise last season than any of Mourinho's signings.

He did and he's been disappointing since then. For club and country, starting at the World Cup, before Mourinho took over as manager.

 

[dichinero]

I'm aware I'll get flack for this - probably not by you but others - but it seems as if it's incredibly difficult for many United fans to accept that right now and for the last years, United haven't been real contenders for the PL title, and that's why double standards are applied. IMHO too many just look at names and their previous achievements and extrapolate from there. But if there's one thing in football that's clear is that the past is irrelevant. That's IMHO one out of three reasons why football is so popular around the globe.

Coming back to Mourinho, I'm more and more under the impression that he's past it, i.e. his man management is from ancient times which worked with players from another generation (35+) but not the crop of today. I believe he can reinvent himself but am currently not under the impression that he's honest enough to admit it to himself.

If he can, then I'm very hopeful. But I doubt it

 

[rocks13]

Still a decline. And a decline against what he achieved the previous year i.e. no progress under his reign over the course of two seasons. If a team shows no progess under a new manager over two seasons then it's hard to justify giving him another year in charge.

Fecking hell, this is obvious shit. Why do I have to keep dumbing down stuff for you?



He did and he's been disappointing since then. For club and country, starting at the World Cup, before Mourinho took over as manager.

But that isn't true - Van Gaal's 2nd season (5th place and FA cup win) was quite clear progress from what he took over from Moyes.

 

[Pogue Mahone]

But that isn't true - Van Gaal's 2nd season (5th place and FA cup win) was quite clear progress from what he took over from Moyes.

Re-read my post. Pay particular attention to the words "under his reign"

And that's my dumbing down done for the day. See you next week. Try the veal.

 

[rocks13]

Re-read my post. Pay particular attention to the words "under his reign"

And that's my dumbing down done for the day. See you next week. Try the veal.

Wow you really are a bit thick. During Van Gaal's reign we improved from being a team who finished 7th and won nothing under Moyes to finishing 5th and winning a trophy. It's not difficult to understand.

 

[Moonwalker]

You're right. His pitch was "I've been out of work, focusing on United, I know what to do, hire me and I'll turn things around." Its not much of an excuse.

And I don't buy it anyway, I don't buy that this is a poor group of players. A "frankenstein" group, collected by a group of managers with different ideas, maybe. And again, as before, Mourinho should have seen that. But even if he did there's probably not much he could have done about it. Changing more than 4 first team players at once creates a different set of problems, as we've seen before.

Maybe I've talked myself into this, to keep hold of my hope. But I still think, disappointed as I am with how things have gone this season, our best option is to be patient and hope.

And this season will still be a pretty good one of we finish 6th but with the EL. Not a great one by any means, but nothing to complain about. So as long as he has us motivated for that I'll try and stay positive.

I agree with most of what you wrote (write). Remaining patient is our best option. I just think we can do that without believing and seeing some of the positive things that just aren't there.

Everything will be fine when he signs Dybala. He will not do that, doesn't believe in that type of forward, prefers a tall and strong target man (not a normative statement).
It will be peachy once he gets some wingers. Didn't try to sign any, and he got everything he wished for to the best of our knowledge.
He's a brilliant man manager that knows how to treat players in every instance. Actually quite puerile and cantankerous in character, and even though most of his man management we don't see, it's very hard to imagine that this part of his charming persona somehow evaporates in his dealings with players.
Will play (or worse yet, already does) great football. Isn't known for that, and not according to my eyes he doesn't. We shouldn't expect this.

And the list goes on and on...

 

[GM K]

No doubt about the bolded part. Completely agree with you there and also that finishing has nothing to do tactics when you are one on one. But the fact is we didn't win those 5 games and I believe that there is a reason behind every misfortune. We can't blame luck if it keeps happening again and again. Our finishing is poor and to remedy that we need to create more clear cut chances per game, to balance out the poor finishing ability of the forwards, which we are currently struggling to do. We create more half chances than clear cut chances and that would be fine if we had a deadly finisher. If we had a RVN type player who had put in those chances, no one would question the tactics. The 09/10 season in particular comes to mind as we were not playing scintillating football that season, especially compared to the previous 3 seasons, but the fact that Rooney was constantly banging them in that season meant no one questioned the tactics.

Ultimately the tactics are an extension of the abilities of the players we possess. The best tactic is one that hides the obvious weaknesses of the time. Since our biggest weakness is finishing accuracy, we need a style of play that foregoes these long balls which result in awkward headers and hitting second balls towards goal and instead replaces them with a more patient approach that results in creating more clear cut chances, even if the amount of total chances created is a bit less.

Hard to disagree with this. On point.

I like the bit about tactics being aimed at covering up for weaknesses.

As you have hinted, I think we are where we are due to a combination of factors rather than any single reason. We do have to mention tactics, the quality of the playing personnel, the form of the capable players, the form of our direct rivals, good old luck and other possible reasons, I guess. They seem to be potential underlying reasons for the poor goal conversion rate.

 

[GM K]

I dont agree with that. In Miki, Mata, Martial and Ibra we have abundant quality. They are better than merely good, they have all demonstrated that in the past.

Ibra was the top dog in France last season. Mini was the top dog in Germany and Pogba was top dog in Italy. They are quality players but we need more. Also, the first season syndrome might also be at play. Mini experienced it in Germany. His first season in BD was very average. Pogba looks like he is still trying to cope with his big price tag and the whole amazing experience of returning to his boyhood club.

We just have to give this project time. At least a whole season more. It's way too early to judge.

 

[Silverman]

We will be a lot better next season, i've no doubt but I just hope it won't involve Thursday night football. I would have rathered miss out on EL this year if we don't make CL (Which can't happen as we won the League Cup) but it would mean that we would have had a clear run at the title next year with another summer for Mourinho to make the squad his own.

 

[GM K]

Sorry to nitpick, dispell this myth and provide some context.

Mkhitaryan had an okayish first season.

In his second season, however, he had a mare of a first half. He wasn't alone in that, many others in the team had, too. Klopp, although he loved him as a player and tried everything to boost his confidence, began to bench him. The second half of his second season had okay and good games.

It was in his third season with us - when Thomas Tuchel had taken over and built the team around him to suit his strengths - that Mkhi has been outstanding.

About what I had in mind but thanks for clarifying the details.

 

[royboy16]

But why do you regard the cup we won this season as progress from the cup we won last season?

Well were into the quarter finals of the Europa league so have a chance of another cup.
Weve also won the Charity Shield and the football is better than last season.

 

[GM K]

Kanchelskis, Sharpe, Cantona, Giggs, Hughes
vs
Beckham, Cole, Yorke, Giggs, Blomqvist
vs
Giggs, Tevez, Berbatov, Rooney, Ronaldo,
vs
Martial, Rashford, Mata, Ibrahimović, Mkhitaryan (I've even left out Rooney and Lingard to be kind)

Care to spot the odd group? Our attacking resources are no-where close to being good enough.

People need to get real about what it takes to be world class. We need very talented players, able to play to the maximum of their capacity, on a regular weekly basis. Maybe some of the current lot will dramatically improve but until we get genuine, reliable world class players, dont expect reliable world class results.

I sympathise with Mourinho. Until he has the genuine tools required, we can whinge as much as we want, but it isn't 'his fault'

As I read your post, I just kept picturing all those missed sitters. They validate your post. I think it's not just the quality of the personnel, some of them have actually been off form and that can change.

 

[amolbhatia50k]

Just like every other manager who - shock horror - was unable to get new signings to perform at their very best in their debut season for a new team, in a new league? I swear to god some of ye have lost your minds. There's literally dozens of examples of top class footballers who only started to look the real deal in their second and subsequent seasons of PL football. Including Luis Suarez (mentioned on this very fecking page) and some of the best players we've had at United in the last decade or two. But when the knives are out for the manager none of that matters, right? It's all got to happen now, now, now or someone needs a sacking. Pathetic.

You post like a child sometimes. "Pathetic" "Lost your minds". Get a grip ffs. If you want to see stuff that fits the bill see your posts when LVG was in charge. You were the least patient chap around.

I'm actually very patient. I was with LVG and I am with Mourinho. I have repeatedly said the latter deserves time to get it right. What some don't understand is that being patient and giving a manager time can coexist with being critical of the manager for getting poor results and having a failure of a season. I never said that Jose needs to be sacked if his first season is poor.

Coming on to those players, yes footballers do take time at times adapting to a new league which is why I am happy to give them time. But that doesn't mean José doesn't deserve a metaphorical slap around the ear after he's spent 150 million pounds and still has us woeful in attack and potentially missing out on CL football. Also, it's not as if players don't come to the league and immediately perform either. Ibra has, as have many before. Mkhitarian hasn't looked like he's struggling with the league either. Its just that team isn't working properly as opposed to individuals finding the league's nature hard. So its very different from vidic and evra not doing well because of themselves. That's possibly the case with Pogba who often creates his own problems but either way, we've got far better quality in attack than our goal output suggests and the manager has to be held accountable.

 

[Edgar Allan Pillow]

Kanchelskis, Sharpe, Cantona, Giggs, Hughes
vs
Beckham, Cole, Yorke, Giggs, Blomqvist
vs
Giggs, Tevez, Berbatov, Rooney, Ronaldo,
vs
Martial, Rashford, Mata, Ibrahimović, Mkhitaryan (I've even left out Rooney and Lingard to be kind)

Care to spot the odd group? Our attacking resources are no-where close to being good enough.

In their 1st season Becks, Giggs, Ronaldo were probably at par with Marial. Rashford maybe at par with the same players at youth levels.
Ibra was probably more world class than any of the other strikers you mention.
And we never had a proper #10 like Mkhi or Mata before, so can't compare.

Don't really get your comparison.

 

[sammsky1]

In their 1st season Becks, Giggs, Ronaldo were probably at par with Marial. Rashford maybe at par with the same players at youth levels.
Ibra was probably more world class than any of the other strikers you mention.
And we never had a proper #10 like Mkhi or Mata before, so can't compare.

Don't really get your comparison.

Not much I can do about that, is there?

 

[Edgar Allan Pillow]

Not much I can do about that, is there?

I get the actual comparison, but not the point you are trying to make. Cantona, Yorke, Cole were in their prime. So was Rooney-Ronaldo-Tevez in 2008. Now you are talking 2 youngsters and 1 just past his prime player....with a new manager to boot. It just cannot be a direct one-to-one comparison. I think Martial and Rashford can go on to have careers as good as any of the other players you mention.

 

[Pogue Mahone]

I get the actual comparison, but not the point you are trying to make. Cantona, Yorke, Cole were in their prime. So was Rooney-Ronaldo-Tevez in 2008. Now you are talking 2 youngsters and 1 just past his prime player....with a new manager to boot. It just cannot be a direct one-to-one comparison. I think Martial and Rashford can go on to have careers as good as any of the other players you mention.

So you're basically agreeing with his point? Our attacking resources are well below what Fergie had at his disposal in every season he had a meaningful crack at the league.

 

[JPRouve]

So you're basically agreeing with his point? Our attacking resources are well below what Fergie had at his disposal in every season he had a meaningful crack at the league.

But are we comparing this team with title challengers, are we expecting that?