Israel - Palestine Discussion | Post Respectfully | Discuss more, tweet less

[Raoul]

Saved his life, released him, and he repaid them with October 7th.

 

[owlo]

While there are always plenty of moving parts, oppression is a pretty constant factor in the history of armed resistance. It's pretty much integral.

Plenty of terrorism/armed resistance without oppression exists and has existed in history.

The root cause is not always oppression. Reducing Gaza to “we must carry out armed oppression because we are oppressed“ ignores all the factors above whilst making the assumption that oppression is the overriding factor defining their lives.

 

[Giggsyking]

No lies told here.

I wouldn't take his word here as evidence of anything. This is one of most disrespected scholars in the arab world and not surprisingly hated by both prominent shia scholars more than Sunni scholars.

 

[moses]

Plenty of terrorism/armed resistance without oppression exists and has existed in history.

The root cause is not always oppression. Reducing Gaza to “we must carry out armed oppression because we are oppressed“ ignores all the factors above whilst making the assumption that oppression is the overriding factor defining their lives.

And you're assuming it isn't. I'd say in weeks like this week I'd be closer to the truth than you. And in my lifetime there have been many many bad weeks.

You're also ignoring the very obvious half century plus of oppression.

While it may not be what sparked October 7th, in my opinion it's almost definitely created the the fertile ground to grow whatever you would say is the driving factor.

Let's just disagree though, these loops are no fun.

 

[owlo]

Quite a scary thread, but hard to disagree with him here.

 

[owlo]

And you're assuming it isn't. I'd say in weeks like this week I'd be closer to the truth than you. And in my lifetime there have been many many bad weeks.

You're also ignoring the very obvious half century plus of oppression.

While it may not be what sparked October 7th, it's almost definitely created the the fertile ground to grow whatever you would say is the driving factor.

Conditions in Gaza will obviously give rise to violent individuals wanting to challenge the status quo yes. Those individuals will organise into groups and coalesce around leaders whose goal is to advance their goals with violence. However the last few years have not seen an explosion of violence, rather those on the fringe have been suppressed by both Hamas and Israel (for their own reasons.) this months explosion is nothing to do with escalating or ongoing oppression but rather a change in political calculus from Hamas leadership, that their organisation is best served through war and death of both Palestinian and Israeli civilians.

Gaza had benefited from the lull, and for Hamas to directly counteract their softening with this egregious act of barbarism is all about their organisation, nothing about Israel or the last 50 years.

 

[The Corinthian]

No lies told here.

Is this a serious post? This 'scholar' has been banned from a significant amount of Arab countries and Iran due to his fringe and absurd views. The fact that he's been given political asylum in the UK is neither here nor there.

How is sharing his view news worthy? Can we share any random person's view on the thread now?

Also here's a bit on MEMRI which I'm sure you'll know:

Critics describe MEMRI as a strongly pro-Israel advocacy group that, despite portraying itself as "independent" and "non-partisan",[6][7][8] aims to portray the Arab and Muslim world in a negative light through the production and dissemination of incomplete or inaccurate translations and by selectively translating views of extremists while deemphasizing or ignoring mainstream opinions.[9]

 

[The Corinthian]

Plenty of terrorism/armed resistance without oppression exists and has existed in history.

The root cause is not always oppression. Reducing Gaza to “we must carry out armed oppression because we are oppressed“ ignores all the factors above whilst making the assumption that oppression is the overriding factor defining their lives.

They're living in an apartheid state, the likes that have been described as an open air prison, where their freedoms, food, water, healthcare, and livelihoods are controlled by an oppressive and brutal regime. Israel - their brutal occupation, and their refusal to sit at the table for a two state solution is the reason this mess is what it is, and it's why it's been this way for decades. So yes, I'd say oppression is probably the overriding factor in all Palestinian lives.

It's easy for you to feel sorry for yourself in Canada but have a thought for people who are under a condition you couldn't even dream of.

 

[The Corinthian]

 

[VorZakone]

 

[do.ob]

It's going to a very dark place. Posters like Corinthian are burying their head in the sand. No nuance, no understanding of faults of both sides, just relentless demonisation of one side, constant simplistic barrage of good vs evil. And while some, most, will be careful to make distinctions (Israel/Jews), you can see a very large number are not, and they're growing.

The rhetoric around this is so extreme that it will end up in massacres of jews around the world. That's a given now.

Massacres may be a strong word, but the general idea may not have been so far off:

 

[Raoul]

Is this a serious post? This 'scholar' has been banned from a significant amount of Arab countries and Iran due to his fringe and absurd views. The fact that he's been given political asylum in the UK is neither here nor there.

How is sharing his view news worthy? Can we share any random person's view on the thread now?

Also here's a bit on MEMRI which I'm sure you'll know:

Critics describe MEMRI as a strongly pro-Israel advocacy group that, despite portraying itself as "independent" and "non-partisan",[6][7][8] aims to portray the Arab and Muslim world in a negative light through the production and dissemination of incomplete or inaccurate translations and by selectively translating views of extremists while deemphasizing or ignoring mainstream opinions.[9]

MEMRI are well established in posting videos from many middle eastern nations. Moreover, what the guy is saying in the specific video I posted is spot on. A miscalculation by Hamas that has resulted in a predictably overwhelming retaliation by the side with far more advanced weapons.

 

[Raoul]

Massacres may be a strong word, but the general idea may not have been so far off:

Saw this earlier. Looks like some are taking to radical measures to get their points across.

 

[The Corinthian]

MEMRI are well established in posting videos from many middle eastern nations. Moreover, what the guy is saying in the specific video I posted is spot on. A miscalculation by Hamas that has resulted in a predictably overwhelming retaliation by the side with far more advanced weapons.

There’s nothing credible about MEMRI. Have you actually read up on them before? Their founder? The amount of purposeful mistranslations? They’re an Israeli propaganda tool but don’t take my word for it:

Several critics have accused MEMRI of selectivity. They state that MEMRI consistently picks the most extreme views for translation and dissemination, which portray the Arab and Muslim world in a negative light, while ignoring moderate views that are often found in the same media outlets.[41][42][43][44] Juan Cole, a professor of Modern Middle East History at the University of Michigan, argues MEMRI has a tendency to "cleverly cherry-pick the vast Arabic press, which serves 300 million people, for the most extreme and objectionable articles and editorials ... On more than one occasion I have seen, say, a bigoted Arabic article translated by MEMRI and when I went to the source on the web, found that it was on the same op-ed page with other, moderate articles arguing for tolerance. These latter were not translated."[48] Former head of the CIA's counterintelligence unit, Vincent Cannistraro, said that MEMRI "are selective and act as propagandists for their political point of view, which is the extreme-right of Likud. They simply don't present the whole picture."[49][50] Laila Lalami, writing in The Nation, states that MEMRI "consistently picks the most violent, hateful rubbish it can find, translates it and distributes it in email newsletters to media and members of Congress in Washington."[42] As a result, critics such as UK Labour politician Ken Livingstone state that MEMRI's analyses are distortion.[51][52]

A report by Center for American Progress, titled "Fear, Inc.: The Roots of the Islamophobia Network in America" lists MEMRI as promoting Islamophobicpropaganda in the USA through supplying selective translations that are relied upon by several organisations "to make the case that Islam is inherently violent and promotes extremism."[53]

MEMRI argues that they are quoting the government-controlled press and not obscure or extremist publications, a fact their critics acknowledge, according to Marc Perelman: "When we quote Al-Ahram in Egypt, it is as if we were quoting The New York Times. We know there are people questioning our work, probably those who have difficulties seeing the truth. But no one can show anything wrong about our translations."[49]

In August 2013, the Islamic Da'wah Centre of South Australia questioned the "reliability, independence and veracity" of MEMRI after it posted what the Islamic Da'wah Centre called a "sensational de-contextualised cut-and-paste video clip ... put together in a suggestive manner" of a sermon by the Sheikh Sharif Hussein on an American website. According to the two-minute video, which was a heavily condensed version of the Sheikh's 36-minute speech delivered in Adelaide on 22 March, Hussein called Australian and American soldiers "crusader pigs" and stated "O Allah, count the Buddhists and the Hindus one by one. O Allah, count them and kill them to the very last one." According to MEMRI's translation, he also described U.S. President Barack Obama as an "enemy of Allah, you who kiss the shoes and feet of the Jews" and predicted that "The day will come when you are trampled upon by the pure feet of the Muslims."[54]MEMRI's rendition moved leading Liberal senator Cory Bernardi to write to the Police Commissioner charging that under Australia's anti-terrorism laws, the video clip was "hate speech", and requesting that action be taken against Hussein. The South Australian Islamic Society and the Australian Buddhist Councils Federation also condemned Hussein's speech. Widespread calls from the public for the deportation of Hussein and his family followed news reports of the video. A police spokeswoman stated "Police will examine the entire content of the sermon to gain the full context and determine whether any crime has been committed." Hussein himself declined any comment on the contents of the video. However, the Da'wah Centre charged that by omitting the context of Hussein's statements, MEMRI had distorted the actual intent of the speech. While admitting that the Sheikh was emotional and used strong words, the Centre stated that the speech was delivered in relation to rape cases in Iraq, the birth defects due to use of depleted uranium, and the Burmese Buddhist massacre. This, the Centre said, was omitted from the edited MEMRI video.[55][56][57][58][59]

That’s one part of 3 distinct criticisms of them as an organisation.

Now that imam is one of 1000s, but is most likely talking to a room full of less than a dozen of people because he’s genuinely a nobody and has been banned from most Arab countries.

 

[Raoul]

There’s nothing credible about MEMRI. Have you actually read up on them before? Their founder? The amount of purposeful mistranslations? They’re an Israeli propaganda tool but don’t take my word for it:


That’s one part of 3 distinct criticisms of them as an organisation.

Now that imam is one of 1000s, but is most likely talking to a room full of less than a dozen of people because he’s genuinely a nobody and has been banned from most Arab countries.

I’ve been watching videos on the platform for years, possibly a couple of decades by now. Good source of middle eastern content, especially in the extremist genre.

 

[Raoul]

Ominous news. It appears the Iranians think they can play the proxy war game without facing any consequences at home. Not a wise presumption.

 

[rpitchfo]

I know at its heart this is about land ownership but it does always baffle me that these guys all believe in the same god.

 

[Raoul]

I know at its heart this is about land ownership but it does always baffle me that these guys all believe in the same god.

Ironically, it’s about the interplay of land ownership and religion in that these two aren’t likely to peacefully coexist because of the latter.

 

[JagUTD]

MEMRI are well established in posting videos from many middle eastern nations. Moreover, what the guy is saying in the specific video I posted is spot on. A miscalculation by Hamas that has resulted in a predictably overwhelming retaliation by the side with far more advanced weapons.

It's also ironic the poster asks if we can share random views given they're quite fond of digging up any random that will support their view.

Seems to be an ever increasing theme in this thread though where some will jump on a poster for something they've done themselves, the only difference being which side they "support"

I doubt I am alone in finding this thread one of the better ways to follow what's going on, overall it's well policed by you guys (staff) and reasonably well balanced but the past few days it's tread a little to close to the type of stuff best kept on the cesspits of social media.

 

[Raoul]

It's also ironic the poster asks if we can share random views given they're quite fond of digging up any random that will support their view.

Seems to be an ever increasing theme in this thread though where some will jump on a poster for something they've done themselves, the only difference being which side they "support"

I doubt I am alone in finding this thread one of the better ways to follow what's going on, overall it's well policed by you guys (staff) and reasonably well balanced but the past few days it's tread a little to close to the type of stuff best kept on the cesspits of social media.

I think this is one of the more productive threads, mainly because posters are self-regulating and engaging more in discussions.

 

[JagUTD]

There’s nothing credible about MEMRI. Have you actually read up on them before? Their founder? The amount of purposeful mistranslations? They’re an Israeli propaganda tool but don’t take my word for it:


That’s one part of 3 distinct criticisms of them as an organisation.

Now that imam is one of 1000s, but is most likely talking to a room full of less than a dozen of people because he’s genuinely a nobody and has been banned from most Arab countries.

Honestly pal, I don't think being banned from Arab countries is the best way to judge someone's credibility, especially when it comes to criticism of some elements of the Arab world.

 

[Kaos]

I’ve been watching videos on the platform for years, possibly a couple of decades by now. Good source of middle eastern content, especially in the extremist genre.

They are essentially Israeli pressTV in Arabic.

 

[Raven]

The myth of non-violent resistance has been a gift to colonial regimes.

Non-violent resistance is held out as the only way to overthrow the yoke of oppression. If a people resort to violence then they have betrayed themselves and diminished their own humanity. If only they protested peacefully, goes the objection, the colonial power would see their civilising mission was a success and leave peacefully.

Except it has never been that way. Ever.

I've been trying to make this point to people for years.

 

[Mogget]

Quite a scary thread, but hard to disagree with him here.

I thought this part was quite interesting. Dehumanizing the enemy. The implication being Western soldiers are morally superior to Russians and Islamists. I wonder why he didn't mention past US atrocities?

 

[Raoul]

They are essentially Israeli pressTV in Arabic.

They’re more of a video news clipping and translation site imo. Press TV is in completely different category that does for Iran what RT does for Russia.

 

[Kaos]

They’re more of a video news clipping and translation site imo. Press TV is in completely different category that does for Iran what RT does for Russia.

And what they choose to select and clip is very much agenda driven - exactly how PressTV selectively interview guests or skew news to fit their own world view. Its a terrible source.

The fact they're quoting Quraishi tells you all you need to know.

 

[JagUTD]

I think this is one of the more productive threads, mainly because posters are self-regulating and engaging more in discussions.

Generally I agree and it's why it's been such a good resource to follow what's going on.

 

[Raoul]

And what they choose to select and clip is very much agenda driven - exactly how PressTV selectively interview guests or skew news to fit their own world view. Its a terrible source.

The fact they're quoting Quraishi tells you all you need to know.

I don't know anything about the guy, but nothing he said was in any way inaccurate. The channel itself has always posted content related to middle eastern extremism during the "war on terror", and has more recently expanded to cover people in the west as well.

 

[JagUTD]

And what they choose to select and clip is very much agenda driven - exactly how PressTV selectively interview guests or skew news to fit their own world view. Its a terrible source.

The fact they're quoting Quraishi tells you all you need to know.

In this instance though, isn't it just an opinion?

 

[Kaos]

I don't know anything about the guy, but nothing he said was in any way inaccurate. The channel itself has always posted content related to middle eastern extremism during the "war on terror", and has more recently expanded to cover people in the west as well.

He's a religious fanatic who loves to stir up sectarian controversy, to the point even Shia Iran and Iraq think this guys a tool and have banned him. Not surprised he's decided to use his platform to take a dig at Palestinians who are predominantly Sunni.

As for Memri, like I've set up by an Israeli right-wing think tank, so bear that in mind before using them as a useful aggregator of information. They give fringe extremists disproportionate airtime in an attempt to discredit any condemnation towards Israel. You're going to get nothing but funnelled viewpoints that align with their own, just like you would with RT and PressTV outlets.

 

[Kaos]

In this instance though, isn't it just an opinion?

From someone who's a sectarian religious nut? I think context is important here no?

 

[Raven]

I don't know anything about the guy, but nothing he said was in any way inaccurate. The channel itself has always posted content related to middle eastern extremism during the "war on terror", and has more recently expanded to cover people in the west as well.

Given that the war on terror was more or less just a war of oppression perpetrated by the US and its allies, I find it interesting that they focused on Middle Eastern extremism over western aggression.

 

[JagUTD]

From someone who's a sectarian religious nut? I think context is important here no?

Context is always important as is the source but so is the content.

 

[Kaos]

Context is always important as is the source but so is the content.

So me posting Andrew Tate's views on this conflict is deemed to be worthwhile content? I recall a few pages ago at some posters being annoyed at someone posting Joe Rogan's take.

 

[adexkola]

The IDF said on Tuesday it was attempting to contact residents in Gaza to offer them “a better future for you and your child” by providing information “regarding the abductees in your area”.

How touching.

 

[That_Bloke]

Yahya Sinwar has also apparently been obsessed with getting Palestinian prisoners out of Israeli jails. So beyond the geopolitical angle of derailing the Israeli-Saudi peace accords, I think this may have also been a simple situation where Sinwar thought the attack would kill two birds with one stone (so to speak), by derailing the peace deal and somehow delusionally, getting the Israelis to do a hostage swap, whilst ignoring the likelihood the Israelis would retaliate by obliterating Gaza.

There will absolutely be a hostage swap at some point (how many and for whom, remains to be seen), and they knew what was coming. That Shia dude is right about utter pieces of trash rejoicing at innocent civilians being massacred, but also incredibly disingenuous by conflating all Palestinians with Hamas, while having a dig at the Sunnis. "Let them rejoice, it's their religion" was quite the hint. It also contributes, imo, to dehumanizing the Palestinians by describing them as nothing short of mindless animals, unable to think about tomorrow and its consequences. But maybe I'm reading too much into it.

I agree with you on many points, but I believe that you're way off the mark if you still think that what happened was a miscalculation. That is not the kind of operation that's been planned without taking into account what comes next. And they knew what would come next.

Not arguing just for the sake of it and to avoid falling into an unproductive loop, we can gladly wait until the next phase unfolds and talk about it once again.

 

[Raoul]

Given that the war on terror was more or less just a war of oppression perpetrated by the US and its allies, I find it interesting that they focused on Middle Eastern extremism over western aggression.

That's the entire point of it. To highlight terrorist narratives that have been pervasive in middle eastern press for decades, particularly among the more religious outlets in places like Saudi and beyond.

 

[JagUTD]

So me posting Andrew Tate's views on this conflict is deemed to be worthwhile content? I recall a few pages ago at some posters being annoyed at someone posting Joe Rogan's take.

Obviously it would depend on the content.

 

[Raoul]

He's a religious fanatic who loves to stir up sectarian controversy, to the point even Shia Iran and Iraq think this guys a tool and have banned him. Not surprised he's decided to use his platform to take a dig at Palestinians who are predominantly Sunni.

As for Memri, like I've set up by an Israeli right-wing think tank, so bear that in mind before using them as a useful aggregator of information. They give fringe extremists disproportionate airtime in an attempt to discredit any condemnation towards Israel. You're going to get nothing but funnelled viewpoints that align with their own, just like you would with RT and PressTV outlets.

It may have been co-founded by an Israeli guy back in the 90s but that has nothing to do with the legitimacy of the content in the present. For instance, they've had a post 10.7 attack interview with Osama Hamdan of Hamas' political bureau. That's a perfectly legitimate thing to broadcast to showcase the mentality of Hamas political leaders talking about sending "Israelis back to where they came from". They also broadcast the interview with Khaled Mash'al being grilled by Lebanese anchor woman, and countless other interesting stories. If one wants mundane non extremist content from the middle east, then Memri isn't a good place for that.

 

[Raven]

That's the entire point of it. To highlight terrorist narratives that have been pervasive in middle eastern press for decades, particularly among the more religious outlets in places like Saudi and beyond.

If they focus on only one side you'd surely have to agree it's biased?