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The democratic international community (as in Europe and North America) are largely in sync with the US in the Israeli response. The only consideration for Biden is domestic as it relates to 2024, so any policy decisions he makes will be in accordance with that.
From an official diplomatic stance then yes, the governments of Western nations are indeed largely in sync regarding the response. However their populations not so much, and its clear the narrative regarding the conflict has shifted somewhat within the populace of these countries, suggesting it may eventually be unsustainable for these countries to continue downplaying the human cost of this conflict. Macron was essentially forced into a mini-condemnation of sorts after seismic pressure from his country's citizens, and the British labour party (which will likely be in no 10 come the next election) are also facing a small crisis of their own following the vote for the ceasefire amendment. If we've learned anything from South Africa is that government sponsored oppression isn't sustainable and there comes a time where even the most reactionary of democracies that endorse or enable this oppression will have to buckle in their stance.

From a governmental level, you already have an unprecedented number of nations cutting off ties or recall their ambassadors - not just the usual suspects, but even nations with historically close ties to the US like Colombia. And then of course there's more traditionally muted nations like Indonesia who weren't shy of making their discontent with the situation known, even publicly as Biden recently found out.
 
They are only about 3 weeks into a war that will probably take a few months and control a lot of territory. If you extrapolate this over time they will control a vast majority of above ground Gaza at some point very soon. Tunnel entrance and exit points will be closed in the process, which will make it very difficult for Hamas to survive. What happens to a post Hamas Gaza after the war is another question.

IDF: Hamas knows it lost the battle for the tunnels
Southern Command officer says the Gaza terror groups will likely redirect resources to other endeavors, such as rocket production or naval activity, after the offensive tunnel project has come to naught with Israeli underground border wall and detection technologies making tunnels less effective.
Yossi Yehoshua|Published: 01.20.18 , 15:27

From 2017:

In tandem with the new technology, the IDF has been working on the new underground obstacle, which costs NIS 4 billion, and does almost of the work to neutralize tunnels.

First, it physically blocks tunnels using a thick concrete wall that penetrates deep below ground while identifying when they are being dug with sensitive detectors. After identifying the tunnels’ weak points and cavities it automatically destroys the enemy tunnel by pumping them with liquid cement.
 
Given that they planned the 10-7 attack for at least a year or two, they were probably banking on a regional conflict that never materialized, leaving them instead to fend for themselves against an Israel that is now committed to removing them from Gaza. An epic and fatal miscalculation that is impossible to undo at this stage.

Yeah. Except Israel will take the opportunity to ethnically cleanse as much of Gaza as it can. By demonising Israel as an entity for existing at all, it's easy to overlook that the current government is far more extreme than its predecessors who actually were interested in some kind of coexistence. Hamas make Netanyahu's point for him and vice-versa.
 
Yeah. Except Israel will take the opportunity to ethnically cleanse as much of Gaza as it can. By demonising Israel as an entity for existing at all, it's easy to overlook that the current government is far more extreme than its predecessors who actually were interested in some kind of coexistence. Hamas make Netanyahu's point for him and vice-versa.

Yes, it is a bit of a self-reinforcing problem with Hamas and Netanyahu in the mix. Hopefully neither will be players anymore in the near future.
 
From an official diplomatic stance then yes, the governments of Western nations are indeed largely in sync regarding the response. However their populations not so much, and its clear the narrative regarding the conflict has shifted somewhat within the populace of these countries, suggesting it may eventually be unsustainable for these countries to continue downplaying the human cost of this conflict. Macron was essentially forced into a mini-condemnation of sorts after seismic pressure from his country's citizens, and the British labour party (which will likely be in no 10 come the next election) are also facing a small crisis of their own following the vote for the ceasefire amendment. If we've learned anything from South Africa is that government sponsored oppression isn't sustainable and there comes a time where even the most reactionary of democracies that endorse or enable this oppression will have to buckle in their stance.

From a governmental level, you already have an unprecedented number of nations cutting off ties or recall their ambassadors - not just the usual suspects, but even nations with historically close ties to the US like Colombia. And then of course there's more traditionally muted nations like Indonesia who weren't shy of making their discontent with the situation known, even publicly as Biden recently found out.

Some of these democratic countries with large demonstrations will have to address them domestically in the next election cycle. I don’t think they will influence their country’s policy in any meaningful way in the present since Israel is a very small consideration among the vastly more important domestic issues, mostly economic, that politicians have to deal with.
 
Yes, it is a bit of a self-reinforcing problem with Hamas and Netanyahu in the mix. Hopefully neither will be players anymore in the near future.

I think this conflict has permanently radicalised both sides. The Israelis won't rest till the only place left to live in Gaza is tents. And they will never give the Gazans water or food or power again since they are under no obligation to do so. So if Egypt doesn't step in or unless the sea blockade is lifted, then there will be a long running humanitarian catastrophe and the place will empty out.

Some of these democratic countries with large demonstrations will have to address them domestically in the next election cycle. I don’t think they will influence their country’s policy in any meaningful way in the present since Israel is a very small consideration among the vastly more important domestic issues, mostly economic, that politicians have to deal with.

I doubt Gaza will be an issue in any western election. A few Labour seats may go Libdem but that's about it. They will have a majority of 150 instead of 160. The much bigger issue will be how Europe accommodates 2 million displaced radicalised Gazans. Half that many Syrian refugees arriving in Europe caused political mayhem and arguably triggered Brexit if you recall.
 
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I don't think the West are that naive, I'd wager they knew exactly what the objective was from the get go and have been happy for it to play out, hiding under the guise of it being a righteous act of self-defence and exclusively siphoning all condemnation and culpability towards Hamas.

Decades from now we'll see the tracking back and revisionism, just like with Mandela and the ANC.

That's plausible

Regarding the bolded, if I'm alive then I'll be sure to scoff. If Gaza is ever free I'm sure the pro-Israel folk will find some way to rewrite history.

I doubt western governments share your view on what is and is not legitimate.

Oh I agree with that. I think that objectively Ukraine are the wronged party, and have the clear moral upper hand in the war, in a way Israel does not. There is no indication that openly or behind closed doors, Israel is being asked hard questions in the way Ukraine is, regarding the purpose and feasibility of the war.
 
Oh I agree with that. I think that objectively Ukraine are the wronged party, and have the clear moral upper hand in the war, in a way Israel does not. There is no indication that openly or behind closed doors, Israel is being asked hard questions in the way Ukraine is, regarding the purpose and feasibility of the war.

Every side thinks they are in the right. If you delve back through the years of attack and reprisal, it ultimately comes down to if you think the specifically Jewish state of Israel has the right to exist or not, because that was the basis of the first war they fought in 1948, of which the rest are just extensions. If it has the right to exist it has the right to defend itself. If it does not - on the basis that it is a colonial and racist concept built on stolen land - then nothing they do is legitimate. But don't expect them to agree.
 
I think this conflict has permanently radicalised both sides. The Israelis won't rest till the only place left to live in Gaza is tents. And they will never give the Gazans water or food or power again since they are under no obligation to do so. So if Egypt doesn't step in or unless the sea blockade is lifted, then there will be a long running humanitarian catastrophe and the place will empty out.
Israel has all along been the legal occupier in Gaza. It absolutely has the obligation to do so.
 
Given that they planned the 10-7 attack for at least a year or two, they were probably banking on a regional conflict that never materialized, leaving them instead to fend for themselves against an Israel that is now committed to removing them from Gaza. An epic and fatal miscalculation that is impossible to undo at this stage.

Although I suspect stopping the normalisation of Israli Saudi relations, after UAE's trade with Israel has skyrocketed, was also a goal.
 


Assuming Israel doesn't back out of this before it goes into effect.
 
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Are Hamas then justified then in fighting back against the IDF? No I thought not. Terrorist group, human shields, other pr narratives etc etc.

'Removing Hamas' is an impossibility, anyone with half a brain cell would know that. It's just the shield they've decided to hide their genocide and atrocities behind. It's actually frightening how many people become apologists for genocide if you hammer the right narrative into them.

Hamas are completely justified in shooting back. It is a war after all and both sides are going to do whatever they can to win. The Israeli side have been pretty transparent that their objective is removing/disarming Hamas and they’re not likely to stop until they’ve done that.
 
Although I suspect stopping the normalisation of Israli Saudi relations, after UAE's trade with Israel has skyrocketed, was also a goal.

Agreed. The timing of the 10-7 attack, although planned for year or two, seemed to coincide with when the Saudis and Israelis were on the cusp of formally normalizing relations, so the what better way to thwart that than trigger the Israelis into a massive retaliation to delay the treaty.
 
Israel has all along been the legal occupier in Gaza. It absolutely has the obligation to do so.

That might be your view but it's not their view. They will cut them off and make Egypt intervene. But Egypt doesn't want them either. The open air prison has an Egyptian border too.
 
'Removing Hamas' is an impossibility, anyone with half a brain cell would know that. It's just the shield they've decided to hide their genocide and atrocities behind.

Discounting your emotive language, I agree. Israel's primary goal is to displace as much of the Gazan population as possible and reduce the rest to tents. Getting rid of Hamas is not possible because it's an ideology.

It's not genocide though. I would say the correct term is ethnic cleansing. It happened in 1948 and 1967 and it happened in Syria recently. It is a common outcome of wars in the middle east. Hamas thought they could trigger a middle east regional conflict and this is the result.
 
Which is why Israel now knows to:

1) Control the PR narrative

2) Have a lot of influence in American media organisations so they don't show a negative view of Israel (see NYT, cnn etc)

3) Have a lot of influence over almost all elected US congressmen.

And so they now have a free pass to do whatever they want. How often do you hear the story of a Palestinian killed in Gaza? And how often do you hear about the hostages? 12,000 dead? Not a single batted eyelid in the US. People are blind to the stranglehold Israel has on the US, and it's dangerous because it's a playbook that will be copied in many future wars.

Don't forget that the entire Republican party (spare a few fringe extremists) are already very pro-Israel, as are most establishment Democrats. The only ones pushing back on all of this are random factions of Arab Americans and pockets of left leaning Gen Z college students (a demographic notorious for not showing up to vote when it actually counts). Therefore, the Israelis themselves don't have to do much to keep the American public on board, as its already woven into American culture to be sympathetic to Israel - both in terms of religion (end of times prophecy) and culture.
 
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Although I suspect stopping the normalisation of Israli Saudi relations, after UAE's trade with Israel has skyrocketed, was also a goal.
I always find this take fascinating. You know you’ve shifted the agency of Palestine from its people in this thinking. Respecting people in a struggle is a part of resolving it.
Countries did not fight for independence because their colonisers were doing good business elsewhere.
If 10/7 did not happen, it would have happened at a later date, either from Gaza or the West Bank. We all know what the common denominator is. Time to start looking the dragon in the eye and stop creating baseless complexities to a very simply straightforward matter.
 
Came here to post this. I assume they are waiting to see why Bibi torpedoes this particular iteration of the deal like he's done in the past.

Someone obviously leaked it to the Wapo, so I would imagine it will happen at some point, just not as immediate as the Wapo article may suggest.
 
Came here to post this. I assume they are waiting to see why Bibi torpedoes this particular iteration of the deal like he's done in the past.
Yep I think you right. Its not in Netanyahu interest to stop the attacks or really to give the Biden administration a “win”.
 
I always find this take fascinating. You know you’ve shifted the agency of Palestine from its people in this thinking. Respecting people in a struggle is a part of resolving it.
Countries did not fight for independence because their colonisers were doing good business elsewhere.
If 10/7 did not happen, it would have happened at a later date, either from Gaza or the West Bank. We all know what the common denominator is. Time to start looking the dragon in the eye and stop creating baseless complexities to a very simply straightforward matter.

If you think the situation doesn't have mutli-fasceted complexities then you aren't looking hard enough. Something can have multiple causes and motivations.

The normalising of relationships with Arab nations has been progressing quickly and a Saudi trade deal would have been imminent as part of Saudi's plan to "de-risk"the region as part of their 2030 vision plan. Which obviously wouldn't be what Hamas want. It is probably too late to stop it but it will delay a deal.
 
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If you think the situation doesn't have mutli-fasceted complexities then you aren't looking hard enough. Something can have multiple causes and motivations.

The normalising of relationships with Arab nations has been progressing quickly and a Saudi would have been imminent as part of Saudi's plan to "de-risk"the region as part of their 2030 vision plan. Which obviously wouldn't he what Hamas want. It is probably too late to stop it but it will delay a deal.
You notice there is no “probably” in my statement. These manufactured complexities come when the usual parties outside the conflict choose talking to themselves instead of listen to what the actual people on the ground are saying. Don’t take their agency away from them with constant accumulation of perceived complexities to make their existence irrelevant.
US wants to talk about this issue they talk to Israel and neighbouring states, whilst the Palestinians are running around asking what was talked about in that meeting. Who ever is peddling these complexities stands to gain from it but not the Palestinians, whose reality it is. People can’t continue take their agency away from them.
 
You notice there is no “probably” in my statement. These manufactured complexities come when the usual parties outside the conflict choose talking to themselves instead of listen to what the actual people on the ground are saying. Don’t take their agency away from them with constant accumulation of perceived complexities to make their existence irrelevant.
US wants to talk about this issue they talk to Israel and neighbouring states, whilst the Palestinians are running around asking what was talked about in that meeting. Who ever is peddling these complexities stands to gain from it but not the Palestinians, whose reality it is. People can’t continue take their agency away from them.
Accepting the undeniably and totally obvious doesn't take agency away. Naively thinking it is simple will advance a solution not at all. If it were simple a solution would already be in place. Obviously.
 
Accepting the undeniably and totally obvious doesn't take agency away. Naively thinking it is simple will advance a solution not at all. If it were simple a solution would already be in place. Obviously.
What will a solution look like in their lives?
 
You notice there is no “probably” in my statement. These manufactured complexities come when the usual parties outside the conflict choose talking to themselves instead of listen to what the actual people on the ground are saying. Don’t take their agency away from them with constant accumulation of perceived complexities to make their existence irrelevant.
US wants to talk about this issue they talk to Israel and neighbouring states, whilst the Palestinians are running around asking what was talked about in that meeting. Who ever is peddling these complexities stands to gain from it but not the Palestinians, whose reality it is. People can’t continue take their agency away from them.
The complexities involved arent manufactured. They arent created by outside forces. They are evident in the reality of the situation for both sides. There are multiple problems at play. This is complex because of the multiple issues at play, not because outside forces say they are complex but because thy actually are.
 


Good lord, now we have Candace Owens (confirmed moron) flame waring against colleague Ben Shapiro in public, so now she is hosting Norman fecking Finkelstein to discuss Israel Palestine. We are through the looking glass now my friends.

Buckle up.
 
Probably missed it somewhere in this thread but I read earlier Ahmed Abbassi was killed in Gaza. He was head of Gift of the Givers. That’s extremely sad, as is everyone who’s lost their lives of course.
 
A man and his family were murdered. Not a terrorist, someone working at a hospital, where people are struggling to save lives. But yeah, let's discuss the word martyr, that's really important.

Any form of pedantry that takes the thread away from discussing Israel killing thousands of civilians is time well spent for some it seems.
 
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Good lord, now we have Candace Owens (confirmed moron) flame waring against colleague Ben Shapiro in public, so now she is hosting Norman fecking Finkelstein to discuss Israel Palestine. We are through the looking glass now my friends.

Buckle up.


Candace Owens along with Charlie Kirk and probably a few others of these right-wing talking heads on new media platforms have placed themselves firmly in the Elon Musk/Tucker Carlson camp, where their antisemitic masks are slipping more and more by the day. They are now openly talking about how Jewish organization and Jewish financiers have been pushing anti-white rhetoric and policies for years, so they can't now be complaining about antisemitism. It's wild.
 
Candace Owens along with Charlie Kirk and probably a few others of these right-wing talking heads on new media platforms have placed themselves firmly in the Elon Musk/Tucker Carlson camp, where their antisemitic masks are slipping more and more by the day. They are now openly talking about how Jewish organization and Jewish financiers have been pushing anti-white rhetoric and policies for years, so they can't now be complaining about antisemitism. It's wild.
It’s all a grift for them at the end of the day. They’ll veer from anti semitism to islamophobia quite regularly just to chase the money and suit their agenda.
 
WHO says Gaza's al-Shifa hospital a death zone, as hundreds leave

The World Health Organization (WHO) has described al-Shifa hospital in Gaza City as a "death zone" after a visit to the complex.
A joint UN team led by the WHO assessed the hospital for one hour following its occupation and evacuation by the Israeli military.
The team said they saw evidence of shelling and gunfire and observed a mass grave at the hospital's entrance.
They were told it held the remains of 80 people.
Following an evacuation which the hospital director said was ordered by the Israeli army but which the army said was requested by the director, 300 critically ill patients remain in al-Shifa - formerly the largest and most advanced hospital in Gaza.
The WHO said it was trying to arrange the urgent evacuation of remaining patients and staff to other facilities in Gaza, and repeated calls for a ceasefire.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-middle-east-67462615

Hospitals, UN schools, mosques, homes, nothing seems to be off limits to these cnuts.