Israel - Palestine Discussion | Post Respectfully | Discuss more, tweet less

JagUTD said:
Its not just pro-Israeli people who reject the claim of genocide but just about every recognised definition and accepted example across all ideological and political lines.
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Here is an article from Time where they ask a bunch of experts. They have different opinions about whether it is genocide or not. Some think it is, some think it isn't.

But they are all talking about the legal definition of genocide and acknowleding the reality that proving genocidal intent is very difficult. The article states that "all scholars who spoke to TIME say that it is much more likely that both Hamas and some Israeli officials could be found guilty of crimes against humanity."

If Jonathan Greenblatt wants to say "using genocide to refer to Israel's actions is inaccurate and sensationalistic. Please, crimes against humanity from now on" he's welcome to do so.
 
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There was a small North African Jewish community in Gaza from at least the 1880s that left in the midst of the violence of August 1929.
 
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It is worth remembering that it was possible for muslims and jews (and Christians) to all live side by side in Israel - it has happened for decades in relative peace. There are 1.7m muslims in Israel now - more than christians. It is not some crazy pipe dream - if anything returning to the more peaceful decades would be the best possible outcome within the non-Palestinian part of Israel. (alongside a proper two-state solution to be clear)

Obvious things have shifted hard to the right in the past 20 years, but it's not impossible to imagine a scenario that could function 'properly'. Indeed, given the coalition nature of Isreali governments, in theory the predominant muslim party could in fact be a kingmaker in the same way (depressingly) that the far right orthodox party currently is.
 
adexkola said:
Arabs don't have the same rights as Jews. They are not treated the same.

And in addition, South Africa tried to pull the same bullshit arguments when they created Bantustans within their territory, and claimed that since black people in South Africa were not South Africans, but citizens of these Bantustans, they weren't entitled to rights granted to whites (and some coloureds), but it didn't classify as Apartheid. So no, you can't exclude Gaza and the West Bank from this discussion and only focus on Cape Town/Tel Aviv
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Sticking to the current borders, aren't Arabs given the same rights as the Jewish population or anyone else, with the exception of mandatory military service? Are there others?

Im under no illusions that rights on paper means everyone benefits from them. Nor am I going to make the lazy comparison with other Middle East countries but I would be interested in how Israel stacks up against the rest of the world, particularly the self declared champions of human rights like the UK, US and many European countries plus the the likes of New Zealand and Scandinavian countries who are often cited as examples of how it should be.

I remember a few weeks ago, an Israeli Arab poster sharing their experiences after the events on 7/10 , which were harrowing. I can't recall their username sadly but do hope they are ok.
 
Beachryan said:
It is worth remembering that it was possible for muslims and jews (and Christians) to all live side by side in Israel - it has happened for decades in relative peace. There are 1.7m muslims in Israel now - more than christians. It is not some crazy pipe dream - if anything returning to the more peaceful decades would be the best possible outcome within the non-Palestinian part of Israel. (alongside a proper two-state solution to be clear)
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It depends what you mean by “relative peace”. Arab-Israelis, Muslim, Christian, and Druze alike, were mostly under martial law from 1949-1966. Since then they have the status of a tolerated minority, with, legally speaking, all the individual and communal rights and freedoms that status implies. But they are not afforded recognition of national rights, and of course suffer discrimination across the board. It’s not too dissimilar from the status of non-Muslims in the pre-19th century Ottoman Empire, although it incorporates modern forms of representative politics.

Beachryan said:
Indeed, given the coalition nature of Isreali governments, in theory the predominant muslim party could in fact be a kingmaker in the same way (depressingly) that the far right orthodox party currently is.
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That is exactly what happened (for the first time*) during the 2021 elections.

*(edit): actually I think it also happened in 1992 although in that case the Arab parties did not join the coalition.
 
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gfactor86 said:
Arabs and Israelis live together peacefully. They share the same shops, beaches,Imams call out to pray from the mosques.

have you seen a synagogue in Gaza? Any Jews able to live there?
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I'll definitely take your word for it, over the Arab living in Israel who posts in this thread.
 
Conor said:
I'll definitely take your word for it, over the Arab living in Israel who posts in this thread.
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He's seen things you people wouldn't believe... Attack ships on fire off the shoulder of Orion... I watched C-beams glitter in the dark near the Tannhäuser Gate. All those moments will be lost in time, like tears in rain...
 
Frosty said:
He's seen things you people wouldn't believe... Attack ships on fire off the shoulder of Orion... I watched C-beams glitter in the dark near the Tannhäuser Gate. All those moments will be lost in time, like tears in rain...
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Wonderful movie.
 
Iker Quesadillas said:
Here is an article from Time where they ask a bunch of experts. They have different opinions about whether it is genocide or not. Some think it is, some think it isn't.

But they are all talking about the legal definition of genocide and acknowleding the reality that proving genocidal intent is very difficult. The article states that "all scholars who spoke to TIME say that it is much more likely that both Hamas and some Israeli officials could be found guilty of crimes against humanity."

If Jonathan Greenblatt wants to say "using genocide to refer to Israel's actions is inaccurate and sensationalistic. Please, crimes against humanity from now on" he's welcome to do so.
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Crimes against humanity is a strong enough way to describe it though. There are other, more accurate descriptions that can be used along with it.

Genocide isn't one of them. It is and should be reserved for the very worst examples of what mankind is capable of.
 
JagUTD said:
Crimes against humanity is a strong enough way to describe it though. There are other, more accurate descriptions that can be used along with it.

Genocide isn't one of them. It is and should be reserved for the very worst examples of what mankind is capable of.
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We’re seeing genocide unfold in real time right now in Gaza. That’s not the opinion of people on the forum but experts in this field. It’s not that hard to get.
 
The Corinthian said:
We’re seeing genocide unfold in real time right now in Gaza. That’s not the opinion of people on the forum but experts in this field. It’s not that hard to get.
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Because it's difficult to accurately state exactly how many say it is Genocide compared with how many say it's not, it's probably fair to say experts are split.

They aren't the ones who make the distinction though, or get to judge whether or not Israel is guilty. They are the lawyers in this, literally in some cases. They make an argument, based on an interpretation which to be clear is opinion.

Those who make such judgements are overwhelmingly in the camp that Israel is not committing genocide. The nations of the world, the UNGC.
 
JagUTD said:
Crimes against humanity is a strong enough way to describe it though. There are other, more accurate descriptions that can be used along with it.

Genocide isn't one of them. It is and should be reserved for the very worst examples of what mankind is capable of.
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The Corinthian said:
We’re seeing genocide unfold in real time right now in Gaza. That’s not the opinion of people on the forum but experts in this field. It’s not that hard to get.
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I think there's always a misconception on using the word "genocide".

By looking at the definition of the word and what is considered genocide, I don't think the criteria is met yet with regards to what's happening.

The key thing is that the criteria is set and we as people shouldn't wait until genocide has happened before calling for a stop to the violence.

The whole point of history is to make sure we don't repeat the worst of it and things like Geneva Convention give us a barometer.

We've seen plenty of genocidal intent from listening to certain members of top Israeli officials and looking at what's happening, we are slowly heading in the direction of genocide.

So it's better to plead for it to stop before we get to an actual genocide.

Don't think I've articulated what I want to say very well but I'm sure people get the jist of it.
 
Dirty Schwein said:
I think there's always a misconception on using the word "genocide".

By looking at the definition of the word and what is considered genocide, I don't think the criteria is met yet with regards to what's happening.

The key thing is that the criteria is set and we as people shouldn't wait until genocide has happened before calling for a stop to the violence.

The whole point of history is to make sure we don't repeat the worst of it and things like Geneva Convention give us a barometer.

We've seen plenty of genocidal intent from listening to certain members of top Israeli officials and looking at what's happening, we are slowly heading in the direction of genocide.

So it's better to plead for it to stop before we get to an actual genocide.

Don't think I've articulated what I want to say very well but I'm sure people get the jist of it.
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I get what you mean.

This is one of those things where people get so hung up on splitting hairs over the meaning of a word or phrase that the conversation drifts away from whats the most important matter at hand.
 
Stack said:
I get what you mean.

This is one of those things where people get so hung up on splitting hairs over the meaning of a word or phrase that the conversation drifts away from whats the most important matter at hand.
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I don't agree it's splitting hairs. Quite apart from the emotiveness of the term - which is the point of using it for some people - it's also about what the intent is and that does matter a lot. I don't agree Israel's intent is to wipe out the Palestinian race, in part or in whole.
 
nickm said:
I don't agree it's splitting hairs. Quite apart from the emotiveness of the term - which is the point of using it for some people - it's also about what the intent is and that does matter a lot. I don't agree Israel's intent is to wipe out the Palestinian race, in part or in whole.
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There's no Palestinian race.
 
JagUTD said:
Crimes against humanity is a strong enough way to describe it though. There are other, more accurate descriptions that can be used along with it.

Genocide isn't one of them. It is and should be reserved for the very worst examples of what mankind is capable of.
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It is but there’s a reason you have a number of aid organizations including amnesty and MSF, plus the UN raise the alarm. People have always lamented why past genocides weren’t stopped - I’m guessing because people were too quick to jump the gun and say it’s bad but not THAT bad
 
VorZakone said:
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It's been 6 weeks, this is insane.
After 10/7, nobody would have blinked an eye if they did a week of bombing gaza, killed ~3k (it needs to be substantially higher than the israeli toll), sniped a few journalists, a hospital, school and UN building, and took out the guys living in qatar.
Instead, they have been bombing for 6 weeks, killed 12k+, openly talked about genocide and ethnic cleansing, taken out multiple hospitals and schools and literally dozens of journalists, and not touched anybody in qatar.
 
berbatrick said:
It's been 6 weeks, this is insane.
After 10/7, nobody would have blinked an eye if they did a week of bombing gaza, killed ~3k (it needs to be substantially higher than the israeli toll), sniped a few journalists, a hospital, school and UN building, and took out the guys living in qatar.
Instead, they have been bombing for 6 weeks, killed 12k+, openly talked about genocide and ethnic cleansing, taken out multiple hospitals and schools and literally dozens of journalists, and not touched anybody in qatar.
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One has to wonder what exactly the Israeli government calculus was here because it hasn't done them any favors really.
 
berbatrick said:
It's been 6 weeks, this is insane.
After 10/7, nobody would have blinked an eye if they did a week of bombing gaza, killed ~3k (it needs to be substantially higher than the israeli toll), sniped a few journalists, a hospital, school and UN building, and took out the guys living in qatar.
Instead, they have been bombing for 6 weeks, killed 12k+, openly talked about genocide and ethnic cleansing, taken out multiple hospitals and schools and literally dozens of journalists, and not touched anybody in qatar.
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Uhmm no - would definitely have blinked an eye. That’s a litany of war crimes - 3k, journalists , a hospital, school and un building !? This isn’t a game of sims

Take out the guys in Qatar , the Hamas leads in Gaza via Mossad which is supposed to be one of the best spy agencies. Why go after civilians ? This was just spiteful and pure sadism - it wasn’t about the hostages as we clearly know by now
 
berbatrick said:
It's been 6 weeks, this is insane.
After 10/7, nobody would have blinked an eye if they did a week of bombing gaza, killed ~3k (it needs to be substantially higher than the israeli toll), sniped a few journalists, a hospital, school and UN building, and took out the guys living in qatar.
Instead, they have been bombing for 6 weeks, killed 12k+, openly talked about genocide and ethnic cleansing, taken out multiple hospitals and schools and literally dozens of journalists, and not touched anybody in qatar.
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VorZakone said:
One has to wonder what exactly the Israeli government calculus was here because it hasn't done them any favors really.
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Netanyahu's government never had any interest in a short targeted military operation. The longer it keeps going on, the longer he stays in power. They wanted first revenge, maximum destruction and I'm starting to think that they're actually really intent on solving the Gaza problem once and for all by getting the Palestinians out of Gaza.

They've literally flattened Northern Gaza and already displaced 1.7M (4 out 5 Gazans) to the South. The North is unlivable right now and the military operations there will not cease. Israel is going to push them further to the South against the barrier with Egypt, while keeping on pummeling the rest of the strip, because muh "destroy Hamas".

They're banking on the international pressure to force Egypt to open its borders, then the Gazans are out and good luck getting them back in.

It's a gamble and it will depend on how the international community the US will react.
 
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Shez said:
Uhmm no - would definitely have blinked an eye. That’s a litany of war crimes - 3k, journalists , a hospital, school and un building !? This isn’t a game of sims

Take out the guys in Qatar , the Hamas leads in Gaza via Mossad which is supposed to be one of the best spy agencies. Why go after civilians ? This was just spiteful and pure sadism - it wasn’t about the hostages as we clearly know by now
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Widespread bombing is the expected response in this situation, especially for a country like Israel which has done it many of times before (and with much less provocation). All the other things I mentioned (journalists, schools, hospitals) have also happened before.
This time the main difference is the quantity, and what many of them say the goals are.
 
That_Bloke said:
They've literally flattened Northern Gaza and already displaced 1.7M (4 out 5 Gazans) to the South. The North is unlivable right now and the military operations there will not cease. Israel is going to push them further to the South against the barrier with Egypt, while keeping on pummeling the rest of the strip, because muh "destroy Hamas".
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Agree that is the most likely Israeli plan here. Just wondering where the 1.7m figure comes from? According to the Palestinian Bureau of Statistics most residents of the north hadn’t left as of 11th November:

“Population residing in Gaza and North Gaza governorates as of the evening of 11/11/2023 was estimated at 807 thousand, representing approximately 152 thousand households, out of 1.2 million Palestinians who resided in those governorates (448 thousand were in the North Gaza governorate, and 754 thousand in Gaza Governorate) before the beginning of the Israeli occupation aggression against Gaza Strip, meaning that about two-thirds of the population of the northern governorates still reside in the northern areas of Gaza Strip, while about a third of the population of the northern governorates comprising approximately 400 thousand individuals were displaced to the central and southern governorates of Gaza Strip (Deir Al-Balah, Khan Yunis, Rafah).”​

I have no idea how they have determined this, but I think they are regarded as a credible institution.
 
The amount of people who chat to me about Palestine, and the crimes that Israel are committing honestly gives me hope for the future.

Less and less people are falling for the non-stop lies of the Israeli Terrorist Govt and their terror army.
 
berbatrick said:
It's been 6 weeks, this is insane.
After 10/7, nobody would have blinked an eye if they did a week of bombing gaza, killed ~3k (it needs to be substantially higher than the israeli toll), sniped a few journalists, a hospital, school and UN building, and took out the guys living in qatar.
Instead, they have been bombing for 6 weeks, killed 12k+, openly talked about genocide and ethnic cleansing, taken out multiple hospitals and schools and literally dozens of journalists, and not touched anybody in qatar.
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The feck?!
 
2cents said:
Agree that is the most likely Israeli plan here. Just wondering where the 1.7m figure comes from? According to the Palestinian Bureau of Statistics most residents of the north hadn’t left as of 11th November:
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“Population residing in Gaza and North Gaza governorates as of the evening of 11/11/2023 was estimated at 807 thousand, representing approximately 152 thousand households, out of 1.2 million Palestinians who resided in those governorates (448 thousand were in the North Gaza governorate, and 754 thousand in Gaza Governorate) before the beginning of the Israeli occupation aggression against Gaza Strip, meaning that about two-thirds of the population of the northern governorates still reside in the northern areas of Gaza Strip, while about a third of the population of the northern governorates comprising approximately 400 thousand individuals were displaced to the central and southern governorates of Gaza Strip (Deir Al-Balah, Khan Yunis, Rafah).”​

I have no idea how they have determined this, but I think they are regarded as a credible institution.
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From the UN Relief Chief Martin Griffith. There's a tweet posted by @The Corinthian a few posts above mine, where he speaks to CNN. Griffith, not The Corinthian.
 
That_Bloke said:
From the UN Relief Chief Martin Griffith. There's a tweet posted by @The Corinthian a few posts above mine, where he speaks to CNN. Griffith, not The Corinthian.
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I wonder if the discrepancy can be explained by the 1.7m including those displaced within the north, not solely those who have moved south, along with residents of the south who have also been displaced?
 
2cents said:
I wonder if the discrepancy can be explained by the 1.7m including those displaced within the north, not solely those who have moved south, along with residents of the south who have also been displaced?
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I've watched it a second time and he said 4 out 5 Gazans aren't in their homes anymore so I think you're right.

In any case there's going to be more people on an even smaller surface. The situation is already catastrophic, Griffith describes it as worse than what he experienced in Cambodia with the Khmer Rouges. How's that supposed to work if the war is supposed to last months? How are you going to manage an already crowded place whose territory shrunk by half with nowhere to run?

For me either Egypt will open its borders or someone will stop Israel, there's no in-between.
 
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Shez said:
It is but there’s a reason you have a number of aid organizations including amnesty and MSF, plus the UN raise the alarm. People have always lamented why past genocides weren’t stopped - I’m guessing because people were too quick to jump the gun and say it’s bad but not THAT bad
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People look back with the benefit of hindsight but the reality is that genocide is so evil, so despicable that even the perpetrators are ashamed and will do everything possible to hide what they have done.

In the age of modern technology, that's increasingly difficult to do for a State unless you exercise absolute control.
 
JagUTD said:
People look back with the benefit of hindsight but the reality is that genocide is so evil, so despicable that even the perpetrators are ashamed and will do everything possible to hide what they have done.

In the age of modern technology, that's increasingly difficult to do for a State unless you exercise absolute control.
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Absolute control like controlling who goes in or out, supply of goods, a naval blockade, limits on construction and prohibition on food, water and energy?
 
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