Israel - Palestine Discussion | Post Respectfully | Discuss more, tweet less

God damn, I never thought fearless would have competition in the caf, but here we are...

I know, I was fuming when I read that reply earlier and wrote a pretty lengthy response but didn't post it because what's the fecking point? It was just repeating what myself and many others have said time and time again. Many others in a far more articulate and informative manner than I could wish to as well.


The simple fact he (and others) still continue to bang on and on about it starting on October 7th and making out Israel are the victims whilst not ever accepting or addressing the fact Israel have stolen land and kidnapped, murdered and held prisoners for decades just makes any attempt at reasoning absolutely futile. Couple that with still calling this a war when only one side is fighting with advanced weapons, superior numbers and the backing of western countries money and arms supplies and the disgusting amount of war crimes committed by that side.

Much of it has been caught on film and uploaded to social media by a sick and twisted force acting with complete impunity all the while land is still being stolen and Gaza lies in ruins with a hugely disproportionate enemy to civilian casualty rate, millions homeless and with one of the worse humanitarian crisis on the planet. And yet Israel are still the victims?


It's beyond belief. It really is. The lack of empathy and compassion left me cold and feeling utterly sick.
 
I think there's a bit of asymmetry to your argument. Hamas are clearly a bunch of fanatics who I'm sure would love to see the state of Israel being destroyed its in entirety, but lets be frank - that's simply impossible. The October 7th attacks are about as much damage as they can hope to inflict, and that was after Israel seemingly being unusually lax with security measures and warnings prior to the events. We're talking about a regional military superpower, backed by the world's strongest superpower, is armed with an arsenal of nukes and possesses sophisticated defence mechanisms like the iron dome. I suspect Hamas' actual goal was to sabotage normalisation efforts between Israel and neighbouring Arab states, which for the time being seems to have succeeded. Israel on the other hand are of course very capable of destroying the notion of Palestinian statehood, something which they've continuously boasted about and one that they're now publicly committing too. What makes them more nefarious is the fact the world's sole superpower is currently sponsoring and absolving them at every step, irrespective of any proverbial red lines they already have or will have crossed.

The other point to consider is Israel's atrocities have predated Hamas' existence. The Nakba ethnic cleansing happened over half a century ago and the descendents of those who've been forced out are condemned to a miserable existence, with no right to return. And since then Israel has continued to subjugate, humiliate and oppress Palestinians on a daily basis, not just in Gaza, but in the West Bank where Hamas have no real power, as well as continuing to build settlements. The frank truth is that Hamas are merely a symptom of the sheer injustices the Israelis have inflicted on the Palestinians. If they were to disappear off the face of the earth tomorrow, you'd see no concession from Israel regarding reaching a peaceful settlement, there'd be no cessations of settlements, and no appetite from the Israelis to allow the foundation of a Palestinian state. This was the case pre-Hamas, and it will certainly be the case in a post-Hamas scenario.

And then there's the question regarding Israel's cultural appetite for peace. While its easy to pinpoint Netanyahu as the culpable monster who's behind Israel's crimes against the Palestinians, if you were to gauge the sentiments of those who consider themselves to be leftists within Israeli society, you'd also hear equally distasteful takes, or at best a mere rejection of there being any notion of a Palestinian state.

Ultimately it comes down to one factor - the United States. So long as they continue to bail Israel out at every military, diplomatic and economical junction, Israel will continue its colonial aspirations within the territory, knowing that there would be no repercussions for continuing down that path. And thats regardless as to whether its Netanyahu or an Israeli Labour party cabinet at the helm, or whether Hamas continue to exist or not. All this conjecture about there being peace when Hamas puts down their weapons and Palestinians choose love instead of war is a known fallacy that's simply used as a convenient deflection from Israel's apologists to justify both their bloodlust in this conflict, as well as their adherence to the status quo of continued subjugation. The Palestinians tried the peaceful and secular approach in the past to no avail, hence why we have the likes of Hamas. The only way we're going to get peace is if Israel is sanctioned, isolated and treated as a rogue state until its serious about peace, declaring its borders and having a meaningful discussion about Palestinian statehood. Everything else is noise or deflection.
Superb post.
 
Ofcourse they aren't responsible for Israel's actions.

But that's not quite the crux of the discussion for me. It's about to which extent they're still invested in the Palestinian cause and by buying Israeli defence products or normalizing the relationship, it gives the impression that they're giving Palestinians the cold shoulder. The status quo seemed tolerable to them and in that status quo the Palestinians were still suffering.

This is not even really about moral lecturing. It's about observing to what extent the Palestinian cause is still important to the regional governments.

And how Palestinian leaders interpret this is an interesting follow-up question.

You have to understand that the Arab countries are in no position to dictate the fate of the region. Do you think that if they had the means, they wouldn't weigh in as much as they can in favor of Palestine? The popularity points they'd win would be invaluable for them.

The thing is that they can't. They tried from 1948 to 1973 and failed miserably. The most active and powerful Arab proponents have been either bought off (Egypt and Jordan) or totally dismantled (Iraq and Syria) ever since. From an Arab state point of view, actively supporting the Palestinian cause is biting more than you can chew, an attitude that can only lead to defeat, internal turmoil, and then downfall.

You also must separate the Arab autocrats from their populations, as they are both disconnected from each other. The Arab dictators play a high risk balancing act for their own survival, juggling between international constraints and domestic demands. They pay the minimum lip service to not be overthrown and that's it. Once you come to grasp with this, it becomes easier to see the bigger picture.

To keep it simple:

- Arab populations are overwhelmingly behind the Palestinian cause, no matter what. The Palestinians know this.

- Arab authocrats are only in favor if it poses no immediate danger and serves their interests of the moment. The Palestinians know this.

- Both are equally powerless to change the course of the events anyways. The Palestinians know this.


Blinken Says New Israeli Settlements in West Bank Are Illegal, Reversing a Trump Policy


https://www.nytimes.com/2024/02/23/world/middleeast/blinken-israel-west-bank-settlements.html

"Mr. Blinken said he was disappointed with the announcement from Israel’s finance minister of plans for thousands of new residences in Palestinian territories."

:lol: Whatever floats your boat, buddy. I love the new settlements are illegal.

Such thoughtful, much American.
 
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I've been donating to MSF for over 20 years now, one of only two charities I donate to. If they're deliberately targeting MSF then there are no rules anymore.
Not directly related to MSF to which I also regularly donate for years, but here's the report about the medical situation in Gaza from a Canadian-Palestinian doctor. A tough watch but worth hearing. It gives to "babies in incubators" a whole new meaning.

 
You have to understand that the Arab countries are in no position to dictate the fate of the region. Do you think that if they had the means, they wouldn't weigh in as much as they can in favor of Palestine? The popularity points they'd win would be invaluable for them.

The thing is that they can't. They tried from 1948 to 1973 and failed miserably. The most active and powerful Arab proponents have been either bought off (Egypt and Jordan) or totally dismantled (Iraq and Syria) ever since. From an Arab state point of view, actively supporting the Palestinian cause is biting more than you can chew, an attitude that can only lead to defeat, internal turmoil, and then downfall.

You also must separate the Arab autocrats from their populations, as they are both disconnected from each other. The Arab dictators play a high risk balancing act for their own survival, juggling between international constraints and domestic demands. They pay the minimum lip service to not be overthrown and that's it. Once you come to grasp with this, it becomes easier to see the bigger picture.

To keep it simple:

- Arab populations are overwhelmingly behind the Palestinian cause, no matter what. The Palestinians know this.

- Arab authocrats are only in favor if it poses no immediate danger and serves their interests of the moment. The Palestinians know this.

- Both are equally powerless to change the course of the events anyways. The Palestinians know this.




"Mr. Blinken said he was disappointed with the announcement from Israel’s finance minister of plans for thousands of new residences in Palestinian territories."

:lol: Whatever floats your boat, buddy. I love the new settlements are illegal.

Such thoughtful, much American.
Look, the 2nd bulletpoint (bolded) is the crux.

It's pointless to keep telling me that they can't dictate the fate of the region as I'm quite confident I never argued that anyway.
 
Look, the 2nd bulletpoint (bolded) is the crux.

It's pointless to keep telling me that they can't dictate the fate of the region as I'm quite confident I never argued that anyway.
Then allow me to ask you this simple question:

What do you realistically expect them to do?
 
Then allow me to ask you this simple question:

What do you realistically expect them to do?
Throughout the last pages I've been saying that they don't have the power to force a solution for the Palestinians. This question would be valid if I was arguing that they can but don't. Then the onus would be on me to explain how.

For me, the question is: could they have chosen not to engage Israel on several subjects such as normalization and arms deals? Or is this something they had to do? And how does that connect with the argument some experts make that October 7th's goal was to put the Palestinian cause back on the map.
 
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Palestinian arrests in occupied West Bank rise to 7,210

Israeli forces have arrested at least 22 Palestinians overnight in the occupied West Bank, including a journalist as well as two children, according to the Palestinian Prisoner’s Society.
 
Because there was no Jewish nation before roughly that precise date.
Think you mean there was no State of Israel. The Jewish nation has existed thousands of years, even prior to the birth of Jesus Christ, roughly 2000 years ago.
 
Think you mean there was no State of Israel. The Jewish nation has existed thousands of years, even prior to the birth of Jesus Christ, roughly 2000 years ago.
He means a Jewish state. Although there is a Jewish autonomous federal subject in Russia called the Jewish Autonomous Oblast larger in size than Israel itself.
 
GHE2_6pXQAAAHfw


Do anybody here still think western media and journalism is honest and decent?

Anat Shcwartz. This is one of the authors of the mass rape article in the NYT, liking a post calling for turning Gaza into a slaughter house.

https://www.nytimes.com/by/anat-schwartz
 
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Part of what makes me enthusiastic about engaging in the question of Zionism is that it’s one of the few places where people are forced to grapple squarely with their attitudes towards liberalism, equality, ethnonationalism, and nationalism generally. And they usually just don’t have anything like a coherent synthesis of their various views on this stuff. They

1) Are fans of liberalism (equal rights for all people in a diverse nation state) generally

2) Would be aghast at the idea of the United States adopting an official religion (like Christianity) or an official ethnic identity (European or similar), even if those were purely symbolic statuses

3) Somehow find a way to believe those things along with ardent support for the explicitly ethnonationalist, state-religion-codifying reality of the modern state of Israel

I ask people basic questions to try and suss this stuff out and they can’t do it. Is it the United States alone that should aspire to be a liberal democratic country? If not, which countries should or should not have official ethnic and religious designations? What decides when liberalism is required and when an ethnostate is permissible? Does Israel alone get a carveout? What are the rules here?

You can’t say “I believe in multiculturalism and that everyone should be equal, but also it’s natural and healthy for states to have explicit ethnic and religious identities.” Those are mutually incompatible; you must choose. And humanity has to choose, whether it will truly pursue the cosmopolitanism that’s a prerequisite for genuine equality or will fall back into old ethnic hatreds that ensure perpetual conflict and the serial oppression of minority groups. You genuinely cannot have this one both ways, guys.

From Freddie De Boer. Thought it was a decent passage.
 
GHE2_6pXQAAAHfw


Do anybody here still think western media and journalism is honest and decent?

Anat Shcwartz. This is one of the authors of the mass rape article in the NYT, liking a post calling for turning Gaza into a slaughter house.

https://www.nytimes.com/by/anat-schwartz

None of that is the least bit surprising. That's the reality Palestinians have faced for decades. Their subjugation is usually whitewashed in the West by their oppressors and their supporters in every way possible.

 


In Israel politicians are extreme right, far right, right, moderately right. No moderate, No left.
 


In Israel politicians are extreme right, far right, right, moderately right. No moderate, No left.


Not acceptable to the majority of Israelis....... Maybe they should think back to the 1940's then and have a little think about how their relatives felt when the shoe was on the other foot.

I visited the Terror museum in Budapest last year and it was fecking harrowing to say the least. The videos shown throughout the museum are very difficult to watch and for someone who has only ever known about the war through school, documentaries and films and some brief historical reading it hit hard seeing it in front of your face.

We then went and saw the shoes on the Danube which again has a tough history behind the sculptures. The city Is full of reminders, stories and statues that tell the story of the suffering during the war and especially the siege of Budapest. Of course that's just one city out of many where similar horrors took place.

It truly baffles me how a people who suffered such horrific events and one of the worst crimes in human history can now turn a blind eye and not relate to the Palestinians. It's like the kid who was bullied at school who then went on to become the bully himself.
 


In Israel politicians are extreme right, far right, right, moderately right. No moderate, No left.


Extremely concerning. With Ukraine politicians were quick to deny the geopolitics of it all and pushed it being a moral action about freedom. The choice now really is moral action or geopolitics, if they let Israel continue it just confirms the latter.

I don't think it'll stop with Palestine because the arguments Israel are making about total security demand action against Iran amongst others.
 

Not acceptable to the majority of Israelis....... Maybe they should think back to the 1940's then and have a little think about how their relatives felt when the shoe was on the other foot

I know "every accusation is a confession" is almost trite at this point... but how many times have we heard, even in this thread, the tired point of "oh you don't want to accept Israel's right to exist?!?"
 
Not acceptable to the majority of Israelis....... Maybe they should think back to the 1940's then and have a little think about how their relatives felt when the shoe was on the other foot.

I visited the Terror museum in Budapest last year and it was fecking harrowing to say the least. The videos shown throughout the museum are very difficult to watch and for someone who has only ever known about the war through school, documentaries and films and some brief historical reading it hit hard seeing it in front of your face.

We then went and saw the shoes on the Danube which again has a tough history behind the sculptures. The city Is full of reminders, stories and statues that tell the story of the suffering during the war and especially the siege of Budapest. Of course that's just one city out of many where similar horrors took place.

It truly baffles me how a people who suffered such horrific events and one of the worst crimes in human history can now turn a blind eye and not relate to the Palestinians. It's like the kid who was bullied at school who then went on to become the bully himself.
It's not new either. It kinda reminds me of European nations being liberated from Nazi occupation and then trying to hold onto their colonies with violence and war. For example, France with Indochina and the Netherlands with Indonesia.
 
GHE2_6pXQAAAHfw


Do anybody here still think western media and journalism is honest and decent?

Anat Shcwartz. This is one of the authors of the mass rape article in the NYT, liking a post calling for turning Gaza into a slaughter house.

https://www.nytimes.com/by/anat-schwartz
None of that is the least bit surprising. That's the reality Palestinians have faced for decades. Their subjugation is usually whitewashed in the West by their oppressors and their supporters in every way possible.







 
Huh? Throughout the last pages I've been saying that they don't have the power to force a solution for the Palestinians. This question would be valid if I was arguing that they can but don't. Then the onus would be on me to explain how.

For me, the question is: could they have chosen not to engage Israel on several subjects such as normalization and arms deals? Or is this something they had to do? And how does that connect with the argument some experts make that October 7th's goal was to put the Palestinian cause back on the map.

From a national point of view, they realistically had to, as neither the economic or military odds were in their favor and there was too much to gain by joining the other side. The Abraham Accords epitomize the ultimate betrayal, making a juicy deal with the enemy at the cost of your own "brothers".

I don't presume to know what every single autocrat in the region truly thinks, but siding with the winner or at least not opposing them when in an inferior position was the only logical way for them to survive and thrive under these circumstances. Gaza and the West Bank were out of sight for years, therefore out of mind. Major Arab governing assholes like Bin Salman in SA or Mohammed VI of Morocco thought that it was time for the next step and quietly close the ultimate curtains on Palestine without causing major protests among the Arab populations who currently have enough to deal with on a domestical matter. And signed the Abraham Accords.

Then Hamas, backed by Iran which had also a lot to lose, said "No".

Left with no choice, it decided for the politics of the worst to force the issue. It went on a desperate but despicable, murderous rampage fully knowing what Israel's answer would be, even betting on it, and played the good old rule in asymmetric colonial wars, "you can lose military battles as long as you win the opinion war on the international scene". Whether they will succeed or not remains to be seen, but the undeniable fact is that Palestine is talked about like never before and will continue to do so.

The status quo that prevailed until now and based on the Gaza being under blockade whilst the West Bank saw itself being slowly and quietly eaten away will never be valid anymore. Israel's actions and exactions are creating a rift in the western populations, particularly in the younger ones who aren't so viscerally attached to Israel like the previous ones and only see what Israel's doing right now. It might not mean anything now but the seeds of doubt have been sowed. The next western rulers will never be as accommodating the current geriatric ones are.

It's not new either. It kinda reminds me of European nations being liberated from Nazi occupation and then trying to hold onto their colonies with violence and war. For example, France with Indochina and the Netherlands with Indonesia.
The two countries you mentioned had a history of colonizing what they considered as "lesser races", France in particular, which was very successful in dominating not only peoples in the Middle-East and Africa but also in Europe. Americans People tend to fixate on WWII when it comes to France, and gleefully give them shit for that, but it was a formidable country and military power for centuries up to WWII, that fought countless wars on the European continent, with much, much more wins than defeats. And if you want to mention a post WWII independence conflict involving France that's close to what's happening in Gaza, you should take a better look to the Algeria Independence War from 1954 to 1962.

Both Netherlands or France never were as bullied and persecuted as the Jews were throughout History. That's not even close. Jews have had a target on their back since the Assyrian Empire. Rome ultimately broke them as a nation a couple of thousands years ago and they've never recovered from it until 1945. In between they've been a diaspora, regularly the subject of admiration, fear, and mostly hate in Europe, depending on the national mood.

It explains their absolute determination and hate towards any perceived threat their new found Homeland (generously given by the reigning colonial powers at the cost of another "lesser race", in order to get definitely rid of them) and they will do literally anything to preserve what they consider to be their God given own land. They'll use any means at their disposal to defend it. If you add to this a healthy dose of institutional contempt and racism towards Arabs, a gift of the Zionism which is incepted in the very early years of every single Israeli, you get what you see right now.

Sorry for the text wall, but I'm an old school guy who can't limit himself to the mandatory Twitter three sentences.
 
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It's not new either. It kinda reminds me of European nations being liberated from Nazi occupation and then trying to hold onto their colonies with violence and war. For example, France with Indochina and the Netherlands with Indonesia.

Because fighting the nazis was not a fight against ideology but a fight against german conquest
 
A few leaks again about optimism for a hostage and ceasefire deal, mainly from Israeli/American media. Some are saying 6 weeks, others 60 days and there are also talks about Palestinians returning to their homes in the north.

I wouldn't be surprised if the parties involved later reject the deal or deny the leaks altogether.
 
A few leaks again about optimism for a hostage and ceasefire deal, mainly from Israeli/American media. Some are saying 6 weeks, others 60 days and there are also talks about Palestinians returning to their homes in the north.

I wouldn't be surprised if the parties involved later reject the deal or deny the leaks altogether.

Are there any homes left? It's a bit late for all this tbh. Especially when we have all seen plans for the redevelopment of Gaza for new homes for Israelis.
 
Are there any homes left? It's a bit late for all this tbh. Especially when we have all seen plans for the redevelopment of Gaza for new homes for Israelis.

I saw a home in the north on fire after it got bombed this morning. So yes there are still a few homes left for them to go back to and get killed in them if a a temporary ceasefire deal goes through.
 


Germany is only 2nd to the US in sending weapons to Israel, they get 28% of their imports from there.
 
I saw a home in the north on fire after it got bombed this morning. So yes there are still a few homes left for them to go back to and get killed in them if a a temporary ceasefire deal goes through.

Ahhhh that's nice. At least they can get bombed at home rather than in a refugee camp they were told to evacuate to because it would be safe. Win win.. Lucky Palestinians. The Israelis are really looking out for them.