Israel - Palestine Discussion | Post Respectfully | Discuss more, tweet less

ScholesyTheWise said:
We have different views in the sense that I think, for a land that belonged to Syria some 50 years ago and has since belonged to Israel, that "there's no going back". I don't think there's a chance that it ever gets returned, hence why I have sense of "no going back".

it is the same on paper, yes.

I think that the WB and the Gaza strip can be freed of Israeli occupation a/o influence one day, and the fact that people are killed and abused daily over there bothers me immensly.

There are no Syrians left in the Golan for a couple of decades now.

I don't know a single Israeli, not even the ones who are the most left-wing-minded who (Jews) who vote for Arab parties in the Israeli Knesset,
Who go and give shit to soldiers in the West Bank,
I don't know any who won't go to the Golan Heights because it was occupied 50 years ago.

It feels very different even thogh it's the same story on paper.

If you were an Israeli you probably would have felt the same, but this we will never know.

Oh and I was interested in asking you- what does it mean to you that the USA or Australia are shitty countries? would you not go there, for example?
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So if Israel did manage to cleanse Gaza and the West Bank of Palestinians and then fully settled those places, in 50 years, you'd feel less bad and shrug your shoulders and think ah well, what can you really do? Perhaps Bibi needs to push on then and get moving so our grandkids can say well there's no realistic chance of Palestinians returning there, what do you think of Americans?

I'm pretty sure there are about 20k Syrians left in the Golan, which are about the same number as the number of Israelis?

With respect, I'm not that bothered by what the majority of Israelis think. If they think its OK, thats up to them, but I don't see it any different to whats happening in the West Bank, even if they want to feel otherwise.

I'd like to think I wouldn't have but if I was surrounded by non-stop propaganda, who knows, perhaps I would have.

It means that I think they're shitty countries and the White Europeans have committed genocides globally and shaped the world in their image across 4 different continents. No I would still visit, just as I have actually visited Israel (alongside a trip to the West Bank). So probably not the gotcha you were expecting.

But you asked me what I think about America, likely expecting a shrug but no, I still think the founding of the country was a travesty (for which nothing can be done now) but if the country was founded in the 70s in that way, I'd 100% be calling out people who thought that was OK.
 
i didn't inted to "get you", and while I'd like to answer your posts, I don't feel comfortable with the hostility you seem to hve developed towards me, my thoughts, whatever.

there is already an abundance of that in this thread.

No I would not shrug my shoulders if the same happened in 50 years in the WB or Gaza, because I live in the present when thes occurences happen.
This, for me, is the difference.

20k Syrians still live in the Golan, do you mean the residents of of Majdal Shamms, Masaad'e, Buqa'ta and Ein-Qinye (tried my best to spell accurately, probably failed)?
 
ScholesyTheWise said:
i didn't inted to "get you", and while I'd like to answer your posts, I don't feel comfortable with the hostility you seem to hve developed towards me, my thoughts, whatever.

there is already an abundance of that in this thread.

No I would not shrug my shoulders if the same happened in 50 years in the WB or Gaza, because I live in the present when thes occurences happen.
This, for me, is the difference.

20k Syrians still live in the Golan, do you mean the residents of of Majdal Shamms, Masaad'e, Buqa'ta and Ein-Qinye (tried my best to spell accurately, probably failed)?
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I don't think I've shown you hostility or been rude in any way.

I have my views on it, which I've made clear and which I don't think you will change to be honest. I think the international community bar Israel and Trump agrees. You can disagree, thats fine, I don't think its going to create any meaningful differences for the situation. I don't think the Golan is going back to Syria and for what its worth, I think the situation for the Palestinians in the WB will only continue to get worse. That doesn't mean I can't bristle at the injustice of the situation in both cases, just as I can bristle at Sudan, the Chagos Islands, Myanmar etc etc, even though I don't forsee those situations improving either.

I don't know the names of the places they live. I just know some Druze live there and some of them have Israeli citizenship and I believe all can access Israeli services. And yes I know they have better lives than their Syrian counterparts.
 
not trying to change your views, just sharing mine. I'm actually trying to show more of my emotions as someone who's from here.
since I don't think my opinions are always that interesting or even well informed.

I wasn't gonna write anything about the Druze in the Golan having better or worse lives than their counterparts in Syria.

I don't see the point of trying to read my mind or implying that I necessarily think this or that.

Let's leave it at that :)
 
ScholesyTheWise said:
well, Hezbollah has been steadily stepping up its attacks on Israel.
I don't know what the chicken and what the egg is here.
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That's a fair point tbh. Israel definitely has a right to defend itself, it's just as we have seen in Gaza, there's no restraint shown. No tit for tat, it's all out retribution. I'm not sure what Hezbollah are up to stepping up attacks to be honest. They have seen how this Israeli government will respond and there is feck all to gain from irritating Israel further. Unless they are just looking to provoke an all out war in the region or try to gain international support and sympathy. It just doesn't make sense to me at all.
 
langster said:
That's a fair point tbh. Israel definitely has a right to defend itself, it's just as we have seen in Gaza, there's no restraint shown. No tit for tat, it's all out retribution. I'm not sure what Hezbollah are up to stepping up attacks to be honest. They have seen how this Israeli government will respond and there is feck all to gain from irritating Israel further. Unless they are just looking to provoke an all out war in the region or try to gain international support and sympathy. It just doesn't make sense to me at all.
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Hmm. your guess is as good as mine.
There's obviously an aspect of attacking Israel for what's happening in Gaza, as some sort of solidarity or what have you.

But also, I believe that what the countries around Israel are witnessing since October is twofold:

1. The IDF is not as potent as it was perceived to be [my own opinion- very very lethal air force, not some much in the ground force front]
2. Hezbollah sees- and contrary to what this thread seems to suggest- that the world doesn't let Israel do everything it wishes to do. I'm saying this becaause, if the Israeli governemnt had their way, 100k would have been dead by now in Gaza (if not triple that number).

I suspect that even if Hezbollah starts firing rockets at Tel Aviv for example - thus declaring that a full scale war has begun - the moment Israel retalites with its air force and Beirut is under these crazy bombardements, the international community will again demand that Israel stops and will label it as another genocide [and the US will veto the call and Israel won't stop completely but will hold some of its firing capabilities].

I think that both Sinwar and Nasrallah see how isolated Israel has become internationally. flattening Beirut will make that even worse.
Plus, the fact that some 80k (I think that's the number) of Israelis have left the northern part of Israel due to Hezbollah firing rockets and drones-

This has a huge economical effect. The Israeli economy will be in the gutter come 2025 or so. What do Hezbollah care to continue firing, witth a couple of hundreds of its soldiers dying along the way?

it's a decent price to pay.

Should an all out war break, they will be pressurised by the people of Lebanon to bring the war to an end.
Until then, they are schooling Israel as far as I'm concerend.

Both Hamas and Hezbollah realize that Israel can't seriously damage their structure for more than a couple of months, because you can't fight them with zero casualties to the civic population. killing or capturing most of Hezbollah's fighters is not a realistic scenario.
the IDF is spent from Gaza.

Israel only has its air force to rely on, and while it can be devastating and lead to huge losses of lives,
it's not something that changes the equasion.

Nasrallah should be happy up to now.
 
langster said:
That's a fair point tbh. Israel definitely has a right to defend itself, it's just as we have seen in Gaza, there's no restraint shown. No tit for tat, it's all out retribution. I'm not sure what Hezbollah are up to stepping up attacks to be honest. They have seen how this Israeli government will respond and there is feck all to gain from irritating Israel further. Unless they are just looking to provoke an all out war in the region or try to gain international support and sympathy. It just doesn't make sense to me at all.
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Hezbollah stepping up the attack comes after Israeli escalation, it doesn't happen out of nowhere. Both are cnuts but it has been mostly tit for tat since October. That said, Hezbollah has shown restraint for months considering Israel hit civilian areas, dropped white phosphorus on them and killed a decent number of non-Hezbollah combatants. I think the latest attacks are part retaliation and part to deter Israel from going fully to war with them by showing them some of what they can do if that happens. Not sure it will work though.
 


That's exactly the point. This guy said it best 9 days ago.

https://therealnews.com/bidens-failed-humanitarian-pier-in-gaza-was-a-stirring-success

GPGHPX4WMAA7I--
 
Idxomer said:
Hezbollah stepping up the attack comes after Israeli escalation, it doesn't happen out of nowhere. Both are cnuts but it has been mostly tit for tat since October. That said, Hezbollah has shown restraint for months considering Israel hit civilian areas, dropped white phosphorus on them and killed a decent number of non-Hezbollah combatants. I think the latest attacks are part retaliation and part to deter Israel from going fully to war with them by showing them some of what they can do if that happens. Not sure it will work though.
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Thanks, I appreciate the reply.
 
"Al Jazeera published one of the most horrifying scenes I’ve ever witnessed, showing execution of Palestinians attempting to return home to North Gaza. I translated the video for you. Soldiers mercilessly shot civilians who were surrendering & raising their hands".

 
Your reminder that Ravid is a propagandist.

Nothing has really changed regarding the ceasefire front since Biden's stunt.
 
Dr. StrangeHate said:
So now the hostages were being held by Doctor and Journalist. Is there any proof to this?

Or it is just a very convenient excuse to justify killing of Palestinian journalists and Doctors.
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It's always the latter, the official page of Israel posted a tweet saying that there are no innocent civilians. No state has revelled in the death and destruction they caused like this in a long time and definitely not one that pretends to be civilised.

Speaking of doctors, Israeli doctors have actually participated in the torture of Palestinians and that has been the case for a long time.
 
Idxomer said:
Your reminder that Ravid is a propagandist.
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Funnily enough, many people in Israel (right and far right supporters) think similarly... Only the other way around. That he's against Israel or something.

Well, he's not any of those things. He's just a bloody good journalist.

I guess what they say is true: If both sides are against you, then you're going a good job.
 
Amir said:
Funnily enough, many people in Israel (right and far right supporters) think similarly... Only the other way around. That he's against Israel or something.

Well, he's not any of those things. He's just a bloody good journalist.

I guess what they say is true: If both sides are against you, then you're going a good job.
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he seems to be a biden/white house stenographer. which would also explain why both sides don't like him.
 
Idxomer said:
Your reminder that Ravid is a propagandist.

Nothing has really changed regarding the ceasefire front since Biden's stunt.
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I've no problem believing that his statement that "Israeli official tells me..." is accurate. But it seems a bit light on detail for this to mean anything. How close to the top is this official, have they been reliable in the past?
 
He’s an OK journalist, nothing more. I don’t learn much from him. I don’t care much about his sources at the White House, because I no longer listen to what the WH has to say about this issue. It’s meaningless.
 
Idxomer said:
Yes, he pushes the narrative that the Biden administration wants.
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Ken Klippinstein said this in a tweet a while back, probably because he’s jealous that Ravid is better dialed in to the logic of Israeli politicians than any American journo. Ravid has nothing to do with Biden administration though. He works for Axios and CNN, which are both mainstream.
 
Raoul said:
Ken Klippinstein said this in a tweet a while back, probably because he’s jealous that Ravid is better dialed in to the logic of Israeli politicians than any American journo. Ravid has nothing to do with Biden administration though. He works for Axios and CNN, which are both mainstream.
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Screenshot-2024-04-29-075031.png
 
Idxomer said:
Screenshot-2024-04-29-075031.png
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That's at the White House correspondents dinner. He has far more sources into Israeli politics than American journalists, so it should come as no surprise if he's recognized for his reporting about the political dynamics of the war.
 
Raoul said:
That's at the White House correspondents dinner. He has far more sources into Israeli politics than American journalists, so it should come as no surprise if he's recognized for his reporting about the political dynamics of the Gaza war.
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I don't have a problem with him getting an award, he did his job painting Biden in a far more favorable light than most journalists regarding Gaza.

Tbf, I went on Axios and his headline is Israel claim Hamas rejected the proposal which is a bit different from the tweet.
 
The Israeli ambassador said just yesterday on CNN that they couldn't accept the detail in the proposal so why are the US still pretending otherwise? Strange to see a western democracy gaslight in real time.

Both parties seem to agree on stage 1 so there's a clear fault in how this has been pushed through.
 
Raoul said:
That's at the White House correspondents dinner. He has far more sources into Israeli politics than American journalists, so it should come as no surprise if he's recognized for his reporting about the political dynamics of the war.
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I don’t like this. A Israeli journalist shouldn’t be the main source for information, nor should he has more sources at the White House than American journalists.

I would say the same if the journalist was Palestinian in the current environment.
 
Smores said:
The Israeli ambassador said just yesterday on CNN that they couldn't accept the detail in the proposal so why are the US still pretending otherwise? Strange to see a western democracy gaslight in real time.

Both parties seem to agree on stage 1 so there's a clear fault in how this has been pushed through.
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It’s clear neither side truly want a solution here. The Wall Street Journal article about Sinwar’s texts that they reviewed suggests he views the loss of life in Gaza as beneficial to his strategy, which means he's likely out of step with the senior Hamas hierarchy in Qatar. Netanyahu is also obviously deeply conflicted on a ceasefire since it wouldn't benefit him politically either. Both of them are responsible for the lack of progress in recent months.
 
Smores said:
The Israeli ambassador said just yesterday on CNN that they couldn't accept the detail in the proposal so why are the US still pretending otherwise? Strange to see a western democracy gaslight in real time.

Both parties seem to agree on stage 1 so there's a clear fault in how this has been pushed through.
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Israel simply has no intention to move to phase 2 which is the main problem and the US fully knows this. They want a time-out, get some hostages out and then resume the bombing. Also, how phase 2 is achieved is seen quite differently in the US view than Hamas.

 
Raoul said:
It’s clear neither side truly want a solution here. The Wall Street Journal article about Sinwar’s texts that they reviewed suggests he views the loss of life in Gaza as beneficial to his strategy, which means he's likely out of step with the senior Hamas hierarchy in Qatar. Netanyahu is also obviously deeply conflicted on a ceasefire since it wouldn't benefit him politically either. Both of them are responsible in the lack of progress in recent months.
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That much is obvious but that makes what the US are doing even more dangerous. In pretending a deal is solely being rejected by Hamas they're providing political cover for Israel and Netanyahu to prolong the war and risk civilians.

The main pressure against Netanyahu was internal, to make peace for a hostage release. The US spin is intentionally or not playing into Netanyahu's hands and easing that pressure.
 
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