Completely misunderstanding my point. I am not saying to trust anyone. However, ruling something as being untrue just because you don’t like the source is a clear logical fallacy. Arguments are there to be debunked! If you think something isn’t true… you or someone with more expertise should be able to provide sound reasoning why. Just like with the audio conversation released by the IDF that was later debunked with evidence and reason. It does and should work both ways.
Israel - Palestine Discussion | Post Respectfully | Discuss more, tweet less
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In the latest episode of the United Hour Podcast, Nik (@Rood) is joined by CEO Duncan Drasdo and Financial Director Andy Green from the Manchester United Supporters Trust for a special episode on all things behind the scenes at Old Trafford including a brief history of MUST and their aims today, views on INEOS and Sir Jim Ratcliffe so far, and the Old Trafford regeneration.
Completely misunderstanding my point. I am not saying to trust anyone. However, ruling something as being untrue just because you don’t like the source is a clear logical fallacy. Arguments are there to be debunked! If you think something isn’t true… you or someone with more expertise should be able to provide sound reasoning why. Just like with the audio conversation released by the IDF that was later debunked with evidence and reason. It does and should work both ways.
People aren't surprised because it's not actually true.
I’m at the London protest - nothing pro Hamas, no pro Hamas flags either. Lots of families, and people from all walks of life protesting against an oppressive occupying power.
This has been debunked.
The point still valid. Its not like the western media is not a propaganda machine!! I have monitored closely the US and British in previous conflicts, even the lefty media outlets in both countries were hitting the drums of war in their lie based invasion of Iraq.
Well if Egypt assisted Israel in the ethnic cleansing, then Israel wouldn’t have many civilians left to starve and bombard…
It’s already been said numerous times that around half of the population of Palestine was not alive when the last elections were held. And about another 25% were alive but not old enough to vote. It confuses me that you are ignoring the 1.5m (out of 2m) who had no say in this.
I just know that you will find a reason to discount this; your stance is, shall we say, rather transparent.
This whole situation is absolutely horrible, but let’s not deliberately turn it into the good guys defending themselves, against the bad guys who put Hamas in power. It really surprises me that you’ve taken the time to adopt a really strong, hardline position, and yet you’ve not taken the few minutes you’d have needed to educate yourself about Palestinian demographics in what is currently a single party state.
You’re aware that far far more Palestinian children have died in the last couple of weeks than Israeli? Are you happy to state openly that you think all child deaths are equally awful?
He was being sarcastic
Ha ha! Thanks. This exactly happened to me about a week ago except I was the one making an identical sarcastic post blaming the Palestinians.
Hoisted by my own petard.
No worries, it happens. The fatal flaw of text messaging… you can’t hear their tone
Exactly.
Emergency arabs summit ongoing now.
Attention in Israel to whatever is going on in the WB is low in normal times. Now it's really non existant. Add the fact that the govenment is pro-settlers, that the IDF helps them at times as well and that its attention has also been diverted, and you get this terrible situation.
Some settlers are truly scum.
I'd suggest all the new explosive experts and splash analysts in here read this thread.
https://x.com/yaelbt/status/1715322731233739117?s=20
They don't care about Palestinian getting killed though.
They don't care about Palestinian getting killed though.
Everyone doing their own analysis. Now it's AP's turn.
Yes, there were certainly Israeli attacks in the area and it is certainly possible for Israel to have struck the hospital. In fact I almost expect it of them. As you say they've done it before and initially that is what I thought happened here. They've killed thousands of innocent people, they don't have too many qualms about it. The problem with this analysis is that the signature of the strike on this particular hospital at this particular time doesn't seem to match the signature of the weapons Israel is regularly using. Not enough physical destruction, too much fire damage. Right, then maybe Israel used an unusual munition for this specific attack. Ok, but if we accept this then we're adding to the leger of doubt aren't we? It's an out of character munition.
You then add into that the fact that anyone with eyes can see an erratic rocket zipping about and exploding above the hospital in the moments prior to the ground explosion. No-one's "confidently clinging", it's just that the evidence is right there in your face. You say that Israel has more ways of knocking rockets from the sky than just the iron dome. Ok, but is this a usual occurrence? Are there other examples of Israel regularly shooting down missiles above Gaza, or is this the only one? Again I feel we have to make the scenario more unusual in order to implicate Israel. Say Israel did use an alternative interception technique; would this automatically destroy the missile mid air, or is it more feasible for it to plummet from the sky and potentially cause a ground explosion?
Talking about the IDF I don't believe a single word that comes out of their lying mouths. What I think is that in the moments after the explosion everybody panicked. My first thought was that these feckers had killed hundreds of innocent people. Similarly I think it highly plausible that many Israelis thought they had probably hit the hospital. Some went for justifications, others went into blanket denial mode and decided on concocting a bullshit story. That audio recording seems far too convenient to be true; I agree that it's exactly the sort of bullshit someone would come up with if they thought they had something to hide. I'd argue that this is because Israel absolutely did think it had something to hide. Neither side waited for the dust to settle before embarking on narratives.
I'm not sure what you mean about the best footage of the strike. Are you referring to the hand held camera with the whistling?
Didn't Ben Gvir arm them with assault rifles?
As if they'd achieve anything.Just like the rest of the international community, they only wake up when the situation explodes and worry about their own streets turning against them.
The real pressure will come from the major players, that's what the Hamas is betting on. They can jump on the bandwagon then.
This is my take as well. The risk of the peace talks, the incoming President and the sheer fecklessness of the current leadership will have put real pressure on the IDF to release something, immediately showing they were not responsible for 500 odd civilians killed in a hospital. That's the kind of mistake that can turn a PR-war against you. So I can 100% believe the audio is doctored, created fake whatever. It's amateur hour if so, but there you go. They needed something before the light was back and any actual evidence could be gathered, so this is what they did.
Since then, we have actual photographs of the site, numerous additional videos and major military powers have also weighed in using their technology. And so far, those are all pointing in one direction.
Again, the reason I personally am sticking on this point is two-fold:
1. It is textbook misinformation leading to real-world consequences - this misinformation caused the peace talks the President of the US was flying over to attend to be cancelled and
2. The desperation and lengths that some people are willing to go to simply to avoid the cognitive dissonance is a case study imo
When it happened I like everyone else figured it was the Israelis. Given all I've been able to now see, coupled both EU and US military sources saying the same thing point me very clearly towards the most obvious scenario.
Encourage anyone on the fence just read this, it's pretty thorough and addresses almost all aspects with what evidence we have to date.
We can't be 100% certain in the circumstances but a malfunctioning Islamic Jihad missile is by far the most likely cause. No matter how much people may want it to be an Israeli attack.
Ultimately, the only people who know what happened are Hamas/IJ, the Israelis, and the US. Both of the latter have made their case, which is now being reinforced by most mainstream media. But ultimately, that won't convince the other side since they would like to use the possibility that it came from the Israelis as a way to generate protests in other countries, so absent an Islamic Jihad TikTok video of their members taking selfies prior to launches then reacting to the misfire, I think people will continue to believe anything that supports their political views.
Unfortunately the Hospital (or its parking lot) isn’t the only place where civilians got killed…
This is the moral stance of what you are all supporting:
This has been going on for about 10 days now, where Israelis have been asking people to move south because they are going to invade North Gaza and Gaza City.
This is the essence of the debate. If you are left wing or Muslim you support the Palestinians. If you are right wing or Jewish you support Israel. The facts in between are hopelessly lost as both sides are quite happy to fabricate unashamedly and behave appallingly by western standards. Judging either side through the prism of our own secular liberal democracy is to misunderstand everything about the conflict.
No. Though I would say that analysts who don't openly align themselves with one side in their twitter bio would be an improvement.
I've already posted in this thread that the most credibly unbiased opinion I've seen so far is from the below:
And he's credibly unbiased because he previously authored this HRW report that found Israel had violated international humanitarian law by targeting civillians in drone strikes, before leaving HRW under a cloud after allegations of pro-Nazi sympathies which senior HRW directors described as an attempt by the Israeli government to smear NGOs who criticise the conduct of the IDF in Gaza.
Therefore his opinion in this case is running against his perceived biases.
This is factually not true.
Its probably a more in general thing.
It's quite clear that the Israelis did not hit the hospital and 500 people did not die. It was propaganda. The only people still repeating it are those for whom facts don't matter.
That said the Israelis almost certainly will attack the main Gaza hospital at some point in some way given they repeatedly claim that Hamas' main command centre is underneath it. So it was perfectly reasonable to think they had attacked this one. It just so happened not to be true on this occasion.
And therein lies the danger.
Of course. It's far more complex than that. It is the headline trend though. If you dig down the soft left tends to be more pro Israel (Starmer for example). Some on the far right are anti-semitic. Some Jews are anti-zionist etc.
I agree with you, and that's exactly why one shouldn't go on making blanket statements or fall for it. The general trend tries to make you pick a side. It's a false dichotomy, there is no side.
In that particular god forsaken region, both people, who have much more in common than what the average Joe knows, want and deserve to live in peace. Side by side, without fearing for the life of their own children.
Yep. His national militia bs. Ironic as gun control laws in Israel are super strict, which was partly why the Hamas attacks in the south were so successful (pistols only apart from the odd communal rifle in synagogues etc)
I think that discussing this topic, more than any other I can think of on the Caf, I’m guilty of making snap-responses without taking the few extra seconds I probably should to gauge the post and the poster.
It’s such an emotive situation.
Come on man I don’t think I could have been more direct with my sarcasm there