Israel - Palestine Discussion | Post Respectfully | Discuss more, tweet less

Halftrack said:
Technically, there's a lot of things Israel should be doing on paper. But since they aren't signatories to the Rome Statute, they also don't answer to the ICC, which means they get to decide whether or not they break LOAC as they recognize them.

In the wake of the atrocities committed by Hamas on October 7th, I think Israel decided that they'd take less care in avoiding striking civilian targets, and probably significantly lowered the bar for what constituted a voluntary human shield. At the same time, their biggest supporters in the West have been happy to allow them to exact their vengeance on the people of Gaza (and to a lesser extent, the West Bank, which we hear very little about since all the focus is on Gaza right now.)
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Israel are bound to the LOAC, (they are party to the Geneva convention)and whilst the ICJ can render advisory opinions that implicate them, like all of IHL it requires the UN to have teeth.

I think you’re right and I’ve said it many times, that I feel their targeting is aggressive and abominable. I believe (unlike most here) that they had to strike back, and hard, but that they could have waited a week for proper ISR and to see where everything landed. That said, there’s no evidence as to whether or not they are in breach of LOAC yet. It’s probably a technical distinction anyway; in the court of public opinion they’ve committed war crimes, and that might be what matters more than what they actually did.

I lean heavily towards the Israeli side and almost got killed by Hamas as a teen, and still won’t justify the actions of Israel completely. Even if you accept the military action as required, the West Bank shenanigans are a disgrace. You don’t need to breach LOAC to be in the wrong, or heavy handed,
 
A collection of thoughts and links from a MENA scholar I respect (but don't always agree with by any means) and who knows the region and the debates surrounding it very well - worth reading through to the extremely grim conclusion (which I find it hard to disagree with unfortunately):

"A categorical assertion: October 7th was the worst day in the history of the Arab-Zionist/Israeli conflict. Ever. Since its origins in the 19th century. This for the reasons specified by Eva Illouz and more: of 14 million Jews and Arabs, evenly divided, living in a land the size of Vermont or Normandy, hating, fearing, and distrusting the other more than ever, with no desire to coexist in the same space but unable to separate. I pronounced the Israel-Palestine conflict to be insoluble years ago but now it is definitive: there is no hope whatever. Except that the conflict can no longer be managed (from the Israeli standpoint) in the way that it has been. And the implication of the rest of the region, notably Iran and its clients, in the conflct, i..e, in a war, cannot be excluded. An apocalypse is not out of the question."

https://arunwithaview.wordpress.com/2023/10/21/the-israel-hamas-war/#comments

It's heartbreaking.
 
gfactor86 said:
Don't know anything about Israeli cabinet saying this and have no source either
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Ah how convenient. Yet you seem to have sources ready to go for Jihadis apparently infiltrating London protests.

From an incredibly quick google:

Ben Gvir and his Jewish Power Party, in cabinet and 3rd largest party in Parliament, alongside Smotrich and his Religious Zionist party?

How about the prime minister himself, with a map from the river to the sea?
 
africanspur said:
Ah how convenient. Yet you seem to have sources ready to go for Jihadis apparently infiltrating London protests.

From an incredibly quick google:

Ben Gvir and his Jewish Power Party, in cabinet and 3rd largest party in Parliament, alongside Smotrich and his Religious Zionist party?

How about the prime minister himself, with a map from the river to the sea?
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There are some Israelis who want to see Israel from river to the sea, and some politicians, a couple of whom have unfortunately risen and have become part of the government and the cabinet (which has very little power). But it's hardly an official cabinet or govenment stance, and it's not on the cards.
 
The Corinthian said:


Palestinians are cut from a different cloth. So much spirit in them.
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Oppressed people everywhere show this spirit. It's beautiful and the source of hope. Humans are all the same in my opinion, the differences are circumstancial.

We need to learn to be as beautiful with power as we are when it's used brutally against us.
 
Amir said:
There are some Israelis who want to see Israel from river to the sea, and some politicians, a couple of whom have unfortunately risen and have become part of the government and the cabinet (which has very little power). But it's hardly an official cabinet or govenment stance, and it's not on the cards.
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It's an error we all make, embodying any opposition as their extremes manifest, no matter how small that extremity is.
 
Amir said:
Plenty of chatter about Hamas releasing around 50 of the people who were abducted, probably those who are of foreign nationality.
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Well, that was wrong. They have released two more women, though. I'm guessing they hope this slow release - there were two women released before, on Friday - would delay any Israeli ground attack,.
 
Amir said:
There are some Israelis who want to see Israel from river to the sea, and some politicians, a couple of whom have unfortunately risen and have become part of the government and the cabinet (which has very little power). But it's hardly an official cabinet or govenment stance, and it's not on the cards.
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I wasn't trying to claim its the dominant viewpoint in Israel, though I'm not sure how Smotrich and Ben Gvir have very little power. Nor did I say it was an official government stance. I personally think it is on the cards, through a thousand cuts, as opposed to a massive event.

Regardless, it wasn't really the crux of my point. I've personally not been that interested in trying to just posting the worst of either side to make a point.

However, I was trying to reply to this poster, who makes sweeping statements (the protestors in London harbour a lot of anti-semites, jihadis etc etc) and who said a person at a pro-Palestine rally chanting from the river to the sea is calling for genocide. He'd also said he disagreed with the label of genocide for what is happening in Gaza now (which I agree with actually).

So I was asking him if he thinks actual Israeli politicians calling for annexation and who's ultimate end goal is a greater Israel from the river to the sea are also calling for genocide or whether that's just a term we give to Arabs.
 
owlo said:
@That_Bloke how heavily do you weight the charter against the prima facie evidence that hamas wants to destroy Israel? Should the starting point be the 2017 charter, or that evidence as well as the suggestion that this is the conflagration they always wanted?

Genuine question, as I see this war being perfect for them.
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I don't read minds, I don't know what the Hamas leaders actually think. Do I see them as more trustworthy because of their new charter? Not really. Would I choose another dialogue partner if I were the leader of the Israeli government? Absolutely.

I harbor an intense dislike, to stay polite, and mistrust towards any islamist group or movement, and that includes the Hamas, not in small part due to my long and personal experience with them. I don't believe one bit in political Islam or any religion/ethnic group as a viable political project. It can only end in tears. I also perfectly know on which soil these groups are born and thrive and why people join them.

They changed it in 2017 because the 1987 charter made them look like rabid clowns. Also 2017 is certainly not 1987, a lot has changed since then. There was a new reality that they had to take into account. They were on the losing side, couldn't get anything done since they came to power, things were only getting worse. No one would talk to them. Now was it really a slow rethink of their relations with Israel and a new future, or a fresh coat of paint just to make them more presentable? Even if it was the former, it wouldn't necessarily mean that the destruction of Israel as a political goal has been indeed abandoned.

In the end, it doesn't matter they're out of the picture now and should never have been in it to begin with.

But if someone thinks that the injustifiable, monstrous massacres on 7/10 were just them satisfying their bloodlust and tries to frame it as some kind of first step from the Hamas to the fulfillment of the (un)written destruction of Israel, they're either willfully ignorant, disingenuous, or living in La-la-land. It leads us away from the elephant in the room, namely the occupation of the West Bank and the blockade of Gaza. As long as there's no effort made to solve these two crucial issues, in a just way for both Israelis and Palestinians, we are bound to see this kind of madness again, again and again. Until there's indeed only one side left there.

You, of all people, perfectly know it.
 
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africanspur said:
I wasn't trying to claim its the dominant viewpoint in Israel, though I'm not sure how Smotrich and Ben Gvir have very little power. Nor did I say it was an official government stance. I personally think it is on the cards, through a thousand cuts, as opposed to a massive event.
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They do have power through their offices and have unfortunately caused enough damage already, with their support to the setllers. It's just that their cabinet positions aren't very important. This isn't the British cabinet. It's rather toothless.
 
That_Bloke said:
They changed it in 2017 because the 1987 charter made them look like rabid clowns. Also 2017 is certainly not 1987, a lot has changed since then. There was a new reality that they had to take into account. They were on the losing side, couldn't get anything done since they came to power, things were only getting worse. No one would talk to them.
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Just to add a bit of further context, this was the period when the Saudis and partners really began to clamp down on the Muslim Brotherhood, across the board. And one of the less discussed aspects of Hamas' attempted re-branding at this time was their attempt to dissociate from their Brotherhood roots.
 
Amir said:
They do have power through their offices and have unfortunately caused enough damage already, with their support to the setllers. It's just that their cabinet positions aren't very important. This isn't the British cabinet. It's rather toothless.
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Fair enough, I'll take your much more informed word for it!

Like I said though, that wasn't really the crux of my point anyway and I'm not that interested in just trying to post the worst members of both sides.

Just found it interesting how easy it was/is for that poster to shout genocide for people saying something at a random protest but was seemingly not aware that there are people in actual government who have the same views.
 
Amir said:
Well, that was wrong. They have released two more women, though. I'm guessing they hope this slow release - there were two women released before, on Friday - would delay any Israeli ground attack,.
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I think you'll see more of this - a drip, drip of Hamas incrementally releasing hostages to delay the invasion. A specific tactic to delay in the hopes global opinion changes and begins working against the Israeli side.
 
2cents said:
Just to add a bit of further context, this was the period when the Saudis and partners really began to clamp down on the Muslim Brotherhood, across the board. And one of the less discussed aspects of Hamas' attempted re-branding at this time was their attempt to dissociate from their Brotherhood roots.
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Thank you for expanding on it. Little good it did to them, SA still abandoned them basically pushed them in the arms of Iran.

Interestingly Saudi Arabia turning on Hamas also happened the same year (2017), which also coincides with the appointment of Bin Salman as Crown Prince. Can we deduce that the two are correlated? MbS had evidently other ideas about the region.
 
Amir said:
Well, that was wrong. They have released two more women, though. I'm guessing they hope this slow release - there were two women released before, on Friday - would delay any Israeli ground attack,.
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It's still two more. Hopefully they will all be released, they don't deserve this.
 
E-mal said:
In my eyes there is no difference between Israel and Hamas morally speaking, this is not only my opinion but that of many ''self hating Jews'' e.g Ilyan pape, Gideon Levy, Chomsky and many more.
In any case, we don't negotiate peace with our friends but with our enemies. In the end, peace and a two state solution is in the best interest of Israel if it wants to maintain a majority in a Jewish state and hope for peace.
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Does Hamas want a two state solution?
 
That_Bloke said:
It's still two more. Hopefully they will all be released, they don't deserve this.
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I'm guessing they are open to releasing citizens as long as it serves them (although they've been holding two Israeli citizens who crossed the border to Gaza for many years).

They are also holding soldiers, though. They won't be releasing them without some deal to release their own prisoners in Israel.
 
Amir said:
There are some Israelis who want to see Israel from river to the sea, and some politicians, a couple of whom have unfortunately risen and have become part of the government and the cabinet (which has very little power). But it's hardly an official cabinet or govenment stance, and it's not on the cards.
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The river to the sea was and is part of Israeli creed.

It was something mentioned before Israel and is in Netanyahus party "constitution".

I posted this with references a few days ago.

If Likud party is in power it's absolutely an official stance
 
Amir said:
Netanyahu clearly doesn't, and unfortunately he's been the PM since 2009, except for 1.5 years.
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It precedes Netanyahu tbf.

Even in in the 20's the agenda was to take what's on offer with a view to taking it all. It being land.

I've posted pieces days ago with quotes.
 
Roane said:
It precedes Netanyahu tbf.

Even in in the 20's the agenda was to take what's on offer with a view to taking it all. It being land.

I've posted pieces days ago with quotes.
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Netanyahu's predecessor held negotiations with Abbas and I believe he was serious and sincere in his attempts to find a solution. Unfortunately he had to resign.

That's slightly more important than the 20s.
 
Amir said:
I'm guessing they are open to releasing citizens as long as it serves them (although they've been holding two Israeli citizens who crossed the border to Gaza for many years).

They are also holding soldiers, though. They won't be releasing them without some deal to release their own prisoners in Israel.
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That goes without saying, but I'm hoping to see at least all the children, women and elderlies being released, no matter the reasoning behind.

The whole situation is absolutely hearbreaking.
 
If it any point in the future I am lucky to lead a country, I am developing nuclear weapons, that is the only guarantee to self defense. I will go as far as letting the whole world know that I have one, in order to deter '' democracies and shared value countries'' from attacking me.
It is completely unjust for a small country like Israel to hold nuclear weapons and a country like Egypt, Turkey or RSA to not possess one.
There is two reasons why Israel is able to continue to act with impunity and disregard for International law and multiple UN resolutions
1. USA and Pro-Israel lobby
2. Nuclear weapons
Someone will post and remind me how I have forgotten 07/10 which I know was tragic and barbaric, but to assume that this conflict started with that attack is being disingenuous and lacking good faith
 
E-mal said:
If it any point in the future I am lucky to lead a country, I am developing nuclear weapons, that is the only guarantee to self defense. I will go as far as letting the whole world know that I have one, in order to deter '' democracies and shared value countries'' from attacking me.
It is completely unjust for a small country like Israel to hold nuclear weapons and a country like Egypt, Turkey or RSA to not possess one.
There is two reasons why Israel is able to continue to act with impunity and disregard for International law and multiple UN resolutions
1. USA and Pro-Israel lobby
2. Nuclear weapons
Someone will post and remind me how I have forgotten 07/10 which I know was tragic and barbaric, but to assume that this conflict started with that attack is being disingenuous and lacking good faith
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Your hypothetical country would probably get invaded and obliterated and before you had the chance to develop one, especially if you behave as if you may consider using it.

As for your second point. Israel is backed by the US. The fact that they have nukes is a distant consideration.
 
Raoul said:
Deleted ?
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No. He didn’t delete it… I don’t know why it isn’t showing here.
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https://x.com/justinamash/status/1716525360647451063?s=46
 
Iker Quesadillas said:
I thought this was a very good opinion piece from The Guardian.

I grew up in Bosnia, amid fear and hatred of Muslims. Now I see Germany’s mistakes over Gaza.
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During the last bombardment of Gaza I noticed, and wrote about it, how some journalists were doing a report. Some Palestinian kids were playing in the background.

All of a sudden there was an explosion and the journalists hit the deck and were all over the palace in panic.

The kids looked at them as if they were nuts and just carried on.

I said at the time when these kids grow up they are going to be damaged or dangerous.

When it comes to Hamas their millionaire leaders live in luxury in the Middle East. If the people doing the attacking on the 7th were those kids is anybody really surprised at the brutality?

That's not making excuses for a massacre. When I was a young lad I went to where I'm from. Kashmir. I spoke with a "mujahid". He wasn't in it for religious reasons despite the rhetoric. He had seen his wife raped and killed by Indian soldiers and his daughter. He simply said I kill them where I see them.

I still remember his eyes. They just looked dead. I remember being disturbed by it for a long while. I see the same in the kids of Palestine
 
Amir said:
Netanyahu's predecessor held negotiations with Abbas and I believe he was serious and sincere in his attempts to find a solution. Unfortunately he had to resign.

That's slightly more important than the 20s.
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The 20's was to highlight that it was never the intention to accept a two state solution. It never has been and never will be.
 
Amir said:
Well, that was wrong. They have released two more women, though. I'm guessing they hope this slow release - there were two women released before, on Friday - would delay any Israeli ground attack,.
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I expect to see more released, and at a higher rate. Maybe not 50, but more than 2 at a time.

Also, how is the Israeli public view going now? Less support for a ground operation? More focus on releasing hostages?
 
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E-mal said:
If it any point in the future I am lucky to lead a country, I am developing nuclear weapons, that is the only guarantee to self defense. I will go as far as letting the whole world know that I have one, in order to deter '' democracies and shared value countries'' from attacking me.
It is completely unjust for a small country like Israel to hold nuclear weapons and a country like Egypt, Turkey or RSA to not possess one.
There is two reasons why Israel is able to continue to act with impunity and disregard for International law and multiple UN resolutions
1. USA and Pro-Israel lobby
2. Nuclear weapons
Someone will post and remind me how I have forgotten 07/10 which I know was tragic and barbaric, but to assume that this conflict started with that attack is being disingenuous and lacking good faith
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The Jewish people are one of the most persecuted in human history. Ancient Greeks, Romans, Arabs, Spanish, Germans. Have all looked to eradicate them. Israel above any other country possibly should have Nuclear Weapons to ensure its own survival and the survival of the world's oldest religion.
 
gfactor86 said:
The Jewish people are one of the most persecuted in human history. Ancient Greeks, Romans, Arabs, Spanish, Germans. Have all looked to eradicate them. Israel above any other country possibly should have Nuclear Weapons to ensure its own survival and the survival of the world's oldest religion.
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Is it wrong to ask why this was? Why the Jews specifically over any other people's?

I was reading some stuff from before the Balfour agreement and there is a quote from a British, Jewish politician (name escapes me) who was dead against a Jewish state.

His reasoning was that once there is a Jewish state the Jews around the world would be homeless. He cited russian Jews as no longer being seen as Russian, with no protection or need for Russia to offer them rights as "true citizens". Because of a nation state. He actually predicted Jewish persecution and lack of rights and them being used as future scapegoats. Then Hitler happened.

I'm no way even suggesting a "bought it on themselves" narrative here. Or anything of the kind. Just interesting that this was a point raised during the very early discussions of a Jewish homeland and by a Jewish person.
 
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