Israel - Palestine Discussion | Post Respectfully | Discuss more, tweet less

JPRouve said:
That's true. In the past similar ideologies and discourses were easily criticized and banned, as the banning of Kach illustrates. But the people behind it have always existed and acted on it, they were just not openly supported by people at the top of the political pyramid. An illustration of that is that support for Baruch Goldstein was allegedly used as an argument to ban these movements in the early 90s and yet nearly 30 years later you have ministers openly supporting that legacy. Israel(and Palestine) slowly but surely went backwards and it is that slow burn that is so dangerous for both sides, extremists are totally aware of it while the rest of the population arab and jewish are kind of oblivious.
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Yeah, there has definitely been some movement in Israeli society over the years - mostly towards soft right, but partly towards more extreme idiologies.

They also strengthened politically, but still had no real power until last year when Netanyahu gave them the big push as he made them part of the coalition and government. Even now thay are trying to inflame the situation, whether it's in the West Bank or within Israel, treating Arab-Israelis as automatic suspect of betrayel,
 
Amir said:
Yeah, there has definitely been some movement in Israeli society over the years - mostly towards soft right, but partly towards more extreme idiologies.

They also strengthened politically, but still had no real power until last year when Netanyahu gave them the big push as he made them part of the coalition and government. Even now thay are trying to inflame the situation, whether it's in the West Bank or within Israel, treating Arab-Israelis as automatic suspect of betrayel,
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That seems eerily similar to the conditions 90 years ago in a certain European country.
 
Kaush949 said:
That seems eerily similar to the conditions 90 years ago in a certain European country.
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A very decorated Israeli IDF officer - who recently, at his sixties, ran into the fire on October 7 to fight with terrorists and get citizens out - was lamblasted a few years back when he claimed that the Israeli society was going through a process that resembled that certain European country you've mentioned.

He was right.

The combination of the religious nutters + the belief that the holocaust should give us special dispensation to do whatever we want to whoever we want has turned parts of Israel and Israeli society to totally deplorable.
 
Just finished watching Bassem Yusuf interview and it has opened my eyes.

As an outsider, now everything is adding up.

This conflict was never about Hamas. It was only about grabbing more land by the Israeli Government.

And it completely ties together with Netanyahu's presentation at the arab summit. The one where he is showing his vision for the new Israeli map.

It is crazy how Netanyahu and Co. have effectively manipulated and united the Israeli people behind his long term strategy towards complete conquest of Palestinian land.

Based on my understanding, his plan looks like this:

1. Introduce more settlers, grab some land, make life harder for palestinians
2. Wait till extreme elements (HAMAS) react with terrorism
3. This brings more fear, hatred and need for justice among general Israeli population.
4. Use this justification to either force palestinians to vacate. Bomb the shit out of the ones who don't.
5. This forces remaining Palestinians into the Sinai, Jordan
6. This brews a new cohort of Palestinian extremists again for the future phase to restart the cycle.

Then rinse and repeat till the entire strip becomes Israeli territory.

Only this time, I think Netanyahu was taken a bit by surprise by the larger scale and organization with which the Hamas terrorists executed their terror.

But in the end it worked out perfectly for him. He successfully got a pass to super charge his master strategy.

To Moderate Israeli friends @Amir @Drizzle @owlo

I do understand your perspective and how stressed, fearful and frustrated you may be feeling at this time especially with the constant attacks and blaming. I honestly think and realize that there is not much you can do even if you wanted to.

But, I plead you to atleast open your eyes and see and internalize the boarder strategy at play here beyond just the elimination of Hamas.

Only the U.S. has the power to break this cycle. But as we know, the U.S. is only driven by financial interests more than anything else.
 
calodo2003 said:
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Said it weeks ago and banged on about it a few times. No doubt they are also selecting target packages. (Or rather providing raw intelligence for them by sending the ref to the screen var style to abrogate responsibility.) The absolute failure of Israeli ISR is being lost in the more important stuff, but they have to come back to it after the war, as essentially it’s been a primary factor in the excess deaths on both sides.

marktan said:
I mean anger will boil into people doing more violent shit. Throwing bricks at windows, vandalising, hell even physical attacks against people. There's lot of anger and helplessness there. There's only so long you can expect people to watch a genocide unfolding live and go along with it.
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Disregarding that you are justifying violence largely against civilian Jews.…. (Because in these scenarios Jews are largely the targets)

If a group of people want to kick up social unrest and violence in a country where their privilege and freedom specifically enables it, they are feeding the stereotype and hatred. College campuses in the US are already seemingly reaching some sort of reckoning, and honestly I have zero sympathy for Harvard educated thugs who get blacklisted from jobs.
 
Amir said:
A very decorated Israeli IDF officer - who recently, at his sixties, ran into the fire on October 7 to fight with terrorists and get citizens out - was lamblasted a few years back when he claimed that the Israeli society was going through a process that resembled that certain European country you've mentioned.

He was right.

The combination of the religious nutters + the belief that the holocaust should give us special dispensation to do whatever we want to whoever we want has turned parts of Israel and Israeli society to totally deplorable.
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That's courageous of him to speak up as well as to act during 10.7 despite his age. Atleast he did the right thing.

Sad state of affairs in Israel based on what you are stating.
 
Roane said:
I mentioned this guy a few days ago on here. His massacre was what lead to Hamas changing tact and starting to attack Israel.

A monument was built for this guy. He was seen as a hero.

I was told, on here, that I was wrong and he wasn't a hero by many etc etc. Bad apples if you will.

This is a hero to the National security minister.
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Disgusting, vomiting emoji.
 
Roane said:
I mentioned this guy a few days ago on here. His massacre was what lead to Hamas changing tact and starting to attack Israel.

A monument was built for this guy. He was seen as a hero.

I was told, on here, that I was wrong and he wasn't a hero by many etc etc. Bad apples if you will.

This is a hero to the National security minister.
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You are wrong. He's NOT a hero to many.

He is, however, one for Ben Gvir. And the fact that this scum ia part of the government - and has this important role, no less - is part of the disaster that is Netanyahu.

But it doesn"t make him part of the majority or anywhere near.
 
Amir said:
You are wrong. He's NOT a hero to many.

He is, however, one for Ben Gvir. And the fact that this scum ia part of the government - and has this important role, no less - is part of the disaster that is Netanyahu.

But it doesn"t make him part of the majority or anywhere near.
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Ben Gvir isn't the only one with pictures and posters of this guy on his walls.

Words such as Tzadik and Kaddosh and books referring to him as Baruch HaGever are plentiful in describing the guy.

The Yeshivas eulogising him are also plentiful.

He has plenty of supporters honouring him
 
Roane said:
Ben Gvir isn't the only one with pictures and posters of this guy on his walls.

Words such as Tzadik and Kaddosh and books referring to him as Baruch HaGever are plentiful in describing the guy.

The Yeshivas eulogising him are also plentiful.

He has plenty of supporters honouring him
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Don't be thick.

He didn't say that Goldstein didn't have supporters, just that those don't make up for the majority of the Israelis. And as far as far I've know, he's not trying to describe the Israeli society and its government as faultless. Far from it.

You're barking up the wrong tree.
 
That_Bloke said:
He didn't say that Goldstein didn't have supporters, just that those don't make up for the majority of the Israelis.
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I don't think Roane said that either.


Israelis have become more right-wing over the years. Opinion polling and electoral results all attest to that. This is the process by which you might end up with domestic terrorist supporters in the government. Not "Netanyahu = BAD."
 
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Roane said:
Ben Gvir isn't the only one with pictures and posters of this guy on his walls.

Words such as Tzadik and Kaddosh and books referring to him as Baruch HaGever are plentiful in describing the guy.

The Yeshivas eulogising him are also plentiful.

He has plenty of supporters honouring him
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No matter how you twist it, it is a minority. Racist people are not. Goldstein worshippers are.
 
Giggsyking said:
43% of the vote did not label him as a terrorist. Its crazy if you are unable to label someone like him as a terrorist.
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Yeah, but how many of them actually know about him and what he's done? It was 30 years ago and they don't exactly teach about it in school.
 
Amir said:
Yeah, but how many of them actually know about him and what he's done? It was 30 years ago and they don't exactly teach about it in school.
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Apart from folk dressing up, and their kids as him to commemorate his death. Speeches given in his honour in synagogues even in places like France and USA, you are right it's not taught in schools.
 
Roane said:
Apart from folk dressing up, and their kids as him to commemorate his death. Speeches given in his honour in synagogues even in places like France and USA, you are right it's not taught in schools.
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Whats the USA and France have to do with it?

Again, you are taking something that a very small part of the population does and treat it as if we're talking about many.

The reality of the matter is that the average Israeli doesn't hear much of Goldstein and I suspect younger people barely know who he is, if at all. Apart from those who grow in very specific parts where what you wrote does indeed happen.
 
marktan said:
Get out of here with that crap, I'm tired of having to listen to you spin words whilst at the same time be completely silent (and silently happy) about the hundreds dying in Gaza every day. 3700 children. Fewer future Hamas members right?

Where the feck did I justify violence against civillian Jews? I said people are angry and the largely peaceful protests will turn more physical. Where the feck did I mention civillian Jews? I've been on protests and guess what, there's always a large presence of anti zionist Jews. At these marches, the last group anyone would target is them. The target at these previously peaceful protests will be the police. Your reduction of everyone to rabid Jew haters is disgusting.

What I do hate is a large section of pro Israelis like you who will focus on anything but the actual hundreds of people dying in Gaza every day, because silently you're happy to see it. You see it everyday all over twitter. Harvard students, protesters saying a chant, taking down posters, we feel scared, Im pro Palestinian but hamas (bill ackman)... everything but the people dying. Silent condoning it, as though the rest of the world can't see it. Everybody has to condemn Hamas, but not once do any of these people ask for protection for 1m kids, close to 4000 already dead. That's what people are angry about too. Having to listen to shit like that from you everyday.
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Jews will obviously be the majority target of this violence and hatred. See statements by the FBI etc. And the evidence all over the world, that it's targeting Jews. And the bold is more of the despicable gaslighting going on. We won't target you if you are an 'anti zionist' and 'good jew' and agree with our opinion. Ergo, other Jews are valid targets, because they support Israel. All the Jews need to do is get on their knees and submit, and we might not be violent or anti semitic towards them.

Harvard students taking down posters are SCARED? Some of the most privileged kids in the country, are so scared they are ripping down posters and assaulting Jews on campus. Sounds like they are anything but scared to me. Good on Bill Ackman and others if they don't want to employ these scoundrels.

Nobody [or very few] are 'happy to see people dying' and we don't 'silently condone it' any more than you 'silently condone' killings in other wars. Rather we are simply less hypocritical, and generally admit that we don't care about people around the world dying because we can do nothing about it and it doesn't interfere with our comfortable daily lives. We implicitly understand that if you attack a major power, they are going to react horribly and with major force, as they always have done throughout history.
 
Amir said:
Yeah, but how many of them actually know about him and what he's done? It was 30 years ago and they don't exactly teach about it in school.
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You want to tell me that in Israel.. Third of the adult population do know who he is? I doubt that there many in Israel who do know who he is, and sure when the questioner was made, they would have clarified that in the question that a section of the people who voted so do not know who he is, but reading the whole article you do not get that understanding.
 
Amir said:
Whats the USA and France have to do with it?

Again, you are taking something that a very small part of the population does and treat it as if we're talking about many.

The reality of the matter is that the average Israeli doesn't hear much of Goldstein and I suspect younger people barely know who he is, if at all. Apart from those who grow in very specific parts where what you wrote does indeed happen.
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I doubt 10% of Israelis even know who Goldstein is. I barely do. It's probably just a terribly constructed poll.
 
I have to wonder whether what's going on in Israel is instigated by Putin with the help of Iran to deflect from the continued invasion and destruction of Ukraine by Russia.
 
Where @Amir is likely correct is that while Israel is like most countries leaning toward conservatism more than leftism, the far right and religious extremists have no actual way to survive on their own in the Knesset. Their current existence is due to the fact that Likud isn't strong enough by itself to comfortably beat their normal opposition which led them to create a coalition with these fringe movements but by doing that they also opened the door to these people being able to air their ideologies in mainstream media when you are able to air these things out, you will convince a subset of the population.
 
Dans said:
I have to wonder whether what's going on in Israel is instigated by Putin with the help of Iran to deflect from the continued invasion and destruction of Ukraine by Russia.
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Possibly, but it has succeeded in highlighting the West's hypocrisy. Crocodile tears and aid for the people of Ukraine, bombs for the people of Gaza.
 
Dans said:
I have to wonder whether what's going on in Israel is instigated by Putin with the help of Iran to deflect from the continued invasion and destruction of Ukraine by Russia.
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No. It's not a recent issue and it's not a sudden one either, it's an issue that is in the fabrics of a country that has partially been built on theology and ethnicism. Those things have generally been relatively well controlled but it is always there even when it's not at the top of the political pyramid.
 
JPRouve said:
No. It's not a recent issue and it's not a sudden one either, it's an issue that is in the fabrics of a country that has partially been built on theology and ethnicism. Those things have generally been relatively well controlled but it is always there even when it's not at the top of the political pyramid.
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Obviously, but for Putin, what an opportunity right? Takes so much focus off what he's doing in Ukraine. Also, given the warm relations with Iran, could this been seen as severe trouble making in that region that essentially benefits both?
 
Dans said:
I have to wonder whether what's going on in Israel is instigated by Putin with the help of Iran to deflect from the continued invasion and destruction of Ukraine by Russia.
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I should clarify, "what's going on currently", not what's been going on in Israel for decades.
 
Giggsyking said:
You want to tell me that in Israel.. Third of the adult population do know who he is? I doubt that there many in Israel who do know who he is, and sure when the questioner was made, they would have clarified that in the question that a section of the people who voted so do not know who he is, but reading the whole article you do not get that understanding.
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He's not talked about. They don't teach about him in schools, they don't do TV documentaries on him. I know who he is because I was already a teenager when he performed the massacre, but I am not sure how much I would have known about it otherwise because he just is not mentioned much in most normal communities here. I am sure most people know the name and not much more.

As for what the people in charge of the poll did and should have done, I do not know.
 
JPRouve said:
Where @Amir is likely correct is that while Israel is like most countries leaning toward conservatism more than leftism, the far right and religious extremists have no actual way to survive on their own in the Knesset. Their current existence is due to the fact that Likud isn't strong enough by itself to comfortably beat their normal opposition which led them to create a coalition with these fringe movements but by doing that they also opened the door to these people being able to air their ideologies in mainstream media when you are able to air these things out, you will convince a subset of the population.
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Indeed. Though Ben Gvir has been able to air his ideology in the media for a while because he made sure he does it in a more reserve way than in the past and due to irresponsible media outlets focusing on him being a "good show'.
 
Amir said:
Whats the USA and France have to do with it?

Again, you are taking something that a very small part of the population does and treat it as if we're talking about many.

The reality of the matter is that the average Israeli doesn't hear much of Goldstein and I suspect younger people barely know who he is, if at all. Apart from those who grow in very specific parts where what you wrote does indeed happen.
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The France defence league or whatever they are called venerate and celebrate him every year.

Groups in America do like wise.

IF 10% of Israelis venerate him that's roughly what of about 8million?

A non entity this guy isn't. To pretend otherwise is disingenuous
 
By the way, why do Israelis refer to Palestinians as "the Arabs"? In so many street interviews I see this pattern.
 
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