Israel - Palestine Discussion | Post Respectfully | Discuss more, tweet less

Raoul said:
No, I don't think so. There are occasional exaggerations and clumsiness in some of the Israeli releases, but they are ultimately incentivized to put out accurate information since they know not doing so will result in more damage than benefit to their objectives. The same can be applied to Hamas when it comes to casualty figures. I previously was highly skeptical of their numbers but have since concluded that as long as the numbers are not absurd, that they are more likely accurate than not. I think we have to be careful to fall into the trap of always only believing one side in this dispute, and should instead be considering what both sides are saying.
Click to expand...
This is an utterly mental take. They've been caught lying on so many occasions that you can't truly believe this.
 


A march calling for genocide. Some guy was saying he doesn't want more bombs falling down on Gaza and the crowd chanted for no ceasefire.
 
the_cliff said:
It's fairly simple. Everyone knows Hamas use tunnels but Israel justify bombing hospitals, schools and refugee camps with the justification that their are Hamas tunnels underneath. Now as someone who obviously cares about the Human species and since many innocent children and women are dying because of the bombing, since many people are dying because of this you would've thought that their would be some sort of incremental evidence to support their claims not just their word and some dodgy video claiming that this is a Hamas tunnel with a piece of paper with days of the week on it claiming to be terrorist names found.

You would also think that even if they were using tunnels underneath, a state with as much power as Israel would care more about other humans as to not bomb those places and find other means of taking care of Hamas without the damage to innocent civilians. Since, I'm sure if Hamas were hiding underneath a hospital in Israel their actions wouldn't be the same.
Click to expand...

The point is that people seem to be either denying that tunnels or Hamas military units are under/near hospitals or saying that if there are they shouldn't be attacked. Israel take these decisions of course but Hamas seem to be largely getting a free pass for using their own population (especially the most vulnerable) as human shields. I'm not even vaguely trying to say Israel are the good guys in this, just that people seem to want black and white villains and not recognise there are far more than one bunch of cnuts involved.
 
Wibble said:
The point is that people seem to be either denying that tunnels or Hamas military units are under/near hospitals or saying that if there are they shouldn't be attacked.
Click to expand...

These don't strike me as very comparable positions.
 
Iker Quesadillas said:
These don't strike me as very comparable positions.
Click to expand...

Are you suggesting ranking this sort of thing?

Israel will behave like Israel always has and doubly so when 1400 civilians are murdered in a terrorist attack. Hamas knew the consequences of that attack and also know the consequences of using things like hospitals to provide protection/cover for military operations. Not only know but actively want attacks where civilians are killed (a bonus if their military are somewhat protected from attacks in terms of severity or frequency).

Many people don't seem to be separating Hamas from the Palestinian civilian population who, as always, are copping it from both sides.
 
Wibble said:
The point is that people seem to be either denying that tunnels or Hamas military units are under/near hospitals or saying that if there are they shouldn't be attacked. Israel take these decisions of course but Hamas seem to be largely getting a free pass for using their own population (especially the most vulnerable) as human shields. I'm not even vaguely trying to say Israel are the good guys in this, just that people seem to want black and white villains and not recognise there are far more than one bunch of cnuts involved.
Click to expand...

Of course, that isn't the point at all because basically nobody on here has denied that Hamas uses tunnels. You keeping on repeating this point doesn't make it true. Hamas themselves don't even deny that they use tunnels.

Nobody here supports Hamas either.

It is an indisputable fact that one side is (rightly) proscribed as a terrorist organisation, sanctioned to the max and with the wider population dehumanised to an extent that we're genuinely and seriously talking about the merits of ethnic cleansing and bombing hospitals and ambulances. While the other side is a close ally, supported diplomatically, militarily and economically by the relevant world powers.
 
Wibble said:
Hamas knew the consequences of that attack and also know the consequences of using things like hospitals to provide protection/cover for military operations.
Click to expand...

The unspoken premise here is that Israel is bombing and attacking hospitals because they have military operations underneath. I don't have to accept this premise because it is idiotic.
 
Wibble said:
Are you suggesting ranking this sort of thing?

Israel will behave like Israel always has and doubly so when 1400 civilians are murdered in a terrorist attack. Hamas knew the consequences of that attack and also know the consequences of using things like hospitals to provide protection/cover for military operations. Not only know but actively want attacks where civilians are killed (a bonus if their military are somewhat protected from attacks in terms of severity or frequency).

Many people don't seem to be separating Hamas from the Palestinian civilian population who, as always, are copping it from both sides.
Click to expand...
You’re just not getting it.
 
Iker Quesadillas said:
The unspoken premise here is that Israel is bombing and attacking hospitals because they have military operations underneath. I don't have to accept this premise because it is idiotic.
Click to expand...

Is it? Why? It is a tactic used widely over the years by terrorist groups like Hamas.
 
africanspur said:
Of course, that isn't the point at all because basically nobody on here has denied that Hamas uses tunnels. You keeping on repeating this point doesn't make it true. Hamas themselves don't even deny that they use tunnels.

Nobody here supports Hamas either.

It is an indisputable fact that one side is (rightly) proscribed as a terrorist organisation, sanctioned to the max and with the wider population dehumanised to an extent that we're genuinely and seriously talking about the merits of ethnic cleansing and bombing hospitals and ambulances. While the other side is a close ally, supported diplomatically, militarily and economically by the relevant world powers.
Click to expand...

It is just weird that people accept that Hamas used tunnels but seem to think they wouldn't use tunnels in/near hospitals or refugee camps or use hospitals as cover for military operations.

Why would Israel attack these targets if there was no military reason to do so? Surely they have enough bad publicity without intentionally making it worse for zero military advantage?

More generally the polarisation of views about this is exactly why (or one of the whys) the issue has never been resolved in any meaningful way. People seem incapable of accepting that many/most players in all this are morally dubious (to be very generous). Apart from murdering over a thousand innocent civilians the Hamas attack made a political solution even less possible and intentionally so. They want to wipe out the Jews and Israel no matter how impossible that is and no matter the cost in the suffering of the Palestinian people. Israel don't give a shit either and most of the Arab world, barring countries like Iran who want to use the issue to attack Jews/Israel/the US, doesn't care enough to offer sanctuary to them and never have. And of course the US bring their usual one eyed bullying approach to everything.

All a bunch cnuts and as usual civilians pay the price and will continue to do so.
 
Last edited:
Wibble said:
Is it? Why? It is a tactic used widely over the years by terrorist groups like Hamas.
Click to expand...

Its a very obvious tactic that most paramilitary organizations steeped in nihilistic religious fanaticism would be incentivized to take advantage of. Hide behind civilians, then if there are civilian casualties, leverage the spectacle of mass carnage as a propaganda tool on the internet to increase public pressure on the opposition to deescalate.
 
The Israeli Defence Force has just said on X that it is “carrying out a precise and targeted operation against Hamas in a specified area in the Shifa Hospital”.

The full post says:

"Operational Update: IDF forces are carrying out a precise and targeted operation against Hamas in a specified area in the Shifa Hospital, based on intelligence information and an operational necessity. The IDF is conducting a ground operation in Gaza to defeat Hamas and rescue our hostages. Israel is at war with Hamas, not with the civilians in Gaza.

The IDF forces include medical teams and Arabic speakers, who have undergone specified training to prepare for this complex and sensitive environment, with the intent that no harm is caused to the civilians being used by Hamas as human shields.

In recent weeks, the IDF has publicly warned time and again that Hamas’ continued military use of the Shifa hospital jeopardizes its protected status under international law, and enabled ample time to stop this unlawful abuse of the hospital.

Yesterday, the IDF conveyed to the relevant authorities in Gaza once again that all military activities within the hospital must cease within 12 hours. Unfortunately, they did not.

The IDF has also facilitated wide-scale evacuations of the hospital and maintained regular dialogue with hospital authorities. We call upon all Hamas terrorists present in the hospital to surrender."
 
The premise that "Hamas is putting war infrastructure under hospitals, that's why Israel is attacking" is comforting if you love the middle ground. You get to split blame more or less proportionally.

That is not what you get in reality.

What you get in reality is an Indonesian NGO funding and building a hospital in Gaza and saying "this is a hospital we built to treat people," and the IDF telling you "Hamas built that hospital to hide their tunnels."

These are not compatible claims. You get to choose which one you believe.

What you get in reality are doctors, nurses, and volunteers telling you that they are under siege, being shot at by snipers, watching people die, and the IDF saying "that hospital is not under any siege."

These are not compatible claims. You get to choose which one you believe.
 
The Israeli Defence Force’s Hebrew account on X also says, “At this time, IDF forces are operating against the terrorist organization Hamas, in a certain part of the Shifa hospital. The operation is based on intelligence information and operational need”.

It goes on to confirm the reports from Gazan health authorities that they were informed shortly before IDF forces entered the hospital.

“The hospital management was informed ahead of time about the entrance to the compound,” the IDF writes in Hebrew.
 
The IDF’s Hebrew account said, “in the continuation of the operation, incubators, medical equipment and baby food are expected to be transferred to the hospital”.

Three of the original 39 premature babies at al-Shifa have died since the hospital ran out of fuel at the weekend to power generators that had kept their incubators going, according to medical staff.

The remaining 36 babies requiring neonatal care are still alive, Dr Ahmed El Mokhatallali, a surgeon, told NBC News on Tuesday.
 
You must log in or register to reply here.