Israel - Palestine Discussion | Post Respectfully | Discuss more, tweet less
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In the latest episode of the United Hour Podcast, Nik (@Rood) is joined by CEO Duncan Drasdo and Financial Director Andy Green from the Manchester United Supporters Trust for a special episode on all things behind the scenes at Old Trafford including a brief history of MUST and their aims today, views on INEOS and Sir Jim Ratcliffe so far, and the Old Trafford regeneration.
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Just wanted to second the recommendation of Yuval Noah Harari on Sam Harris this week, free version here:
Yuval has this great piece around how attempting to completely correct a past injustice can never be achieved, and how the best historic outcomes are those that focus only on the best future outcomes. I also never knew that the majority of initial Israeli's were not European Jews, but those kicked out of the countries in the ME. Probably should have known that. Anyway, give a listen.
Yuval has this great piece around how attempting to completely correct a past injustice can never be achieved, and how the best historic outcomes are those that focus only on the best future outcomes. I also never knew that the majority of initial Israeli's were not European Jews, but those kicked out of the countries in the ME. Probably should have known that. Anyway, give a listen.
It's all just self defence, nothing else.
I realise this is just where we are with X and the internet these days, but did anyone fact check that at all? I found footage of the IDF indeed making the image on the right, but the area the video showed looked absolutely nothing like the photo on the left, and IDF claimed it was a military compound.
Of course the IDF could be lying, but that would also be the easiest fake meme in the world to make and share on X.
Their comments were limited, so I went to Google to see what's what. Nothing there, not even on reddit. Could be a fake, but there'd be some sort of trail to find out online.
Could be wrong though.
Sounds like you’ve been had.
The fountains look similar, but the second photo is too low-res to be able to say for sure.
So the claim here which you seem to have endorsed is that IDF troops have dug up buried bodies from the courtyard of the hospital so that their organs may be harvested back in Israel. Does that seem likely to you?
Can anyone here confirm the Likud charter?
Bastards.
I'm pretty sure that's correct, I read that first page myself when looking into their charter.
It's just one big game for them.
So they are exactly like Hamas.
Looks to be correct, from this: https://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/original-party-platform-of-the-likud-party?utm_content=cmp-true
The hitch seems to be around what you interpret as the Eretz Israel, and whether you go biblical or 1948 with the borders.
Also worth noting that in 1977 when it was written, the PLO's recent actions would weigh heavily on the wording here (and explain why its in here at all).
Look at the revised Hamas charter from 2017.
I'm not saying Hamas are not a terror group but every angle and agenda should always be looked into.
With that said, it's one thing having words in a charter but actions speak louder than words.
In my opinion, both Hamas and Likud are terrorist organisations. But that's just my personal opinion.
Al Quds network claim it is Al-Katiba Park. Only reference I can find for it is a Human Rights Watch article from 2014 claiming it as the site for the execution of 11 "Israeli collaborators" by Hamas. That article describes the park as being near Al-Azhar University in Gaza City. Looking at google maps there is a park near Al-Azhar University that matches the aerial photograph of the bulldozed site (roundabout top right is bottom right on google maps). If you click on it it seems to be called "Green Battalion Park".
It doesn't look as green in the satellite photography as it does in the Al Quds picture. It also doesn't seem to resemble a military compound either.
" The Likud government will place its aspirations for peace at the top of its priorities and will spare no effort to promote peace. The Likud will act as a genuine partner at peace treaty negotiations with our neighbors, as is customary among the nations. The Likud government will attend the Geneva Conference. "
Versus a few highlights from the Hamas charter:
- Article 13 There is no negotiated settlement possible. Jihad is the only answer.[1]
- Article 14 The liberation of Palestine is the personal duty of every Palestinian.[1]
- Article 15 "The day that enemies usurp part of Muslim land, Jihad becomes the individual duty of every Muslim". It states the history of the Crusades into Muslim lands and says the "Palestinian problem is a religious problem".[1]
- Article 16 Describes how to go about educating future generations, with an emphasis on religious studies and Islamic history.[1]
- Article 17 Declares the role of women in Islamic society to be the "maker of men". It condemns Western organizations such as the Freemasons, Rotary Clubs, and intelligence agencies as "saboteurs" for promoting subversive ideas on women.[1]
- Article 18 Defines the role of women as homemakers and child-rearers, providing education and moral guidance to men.
- Article 20 Calls for action "by the people as a single body" against "a vicious enemy which acts in a way similar to Nazism, making no differentiation between man and woman, between children and old people".[1]
Basically two sides of the same coin, yeah.
Thanks for digging. Not saying it's not true, just feels to me like one of those 'this is just too perfect and easy a setup' to not be checked. I suppose if it was the sight where 11 potential colleagues or at least 'friends' of the IDF were executed, it might go a bit futher to explain it.
Isn't that the 1988 charter article points?
Israeli website has the picture
"The extension from which the damned terrorists left for the massacre - is in our hands"
https://www.kikar.co.il/security-news/s49o7o
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I wish that people would stop posting crap coming from more than dubious sources.
On another topic I recently watched a recent video of Norman Finkelstein, who was asked about the Hamas massacre on 10/7 and the motivations behind it, comparing it to Nat Turner's rebellion in 1831 which then inspired John Brown's insurrection about 30 years later (the mentioned part starts at roughly 48:00). Both being extremely controversial personalities as well as religious fanatics which he also recognizes. He sees both of them as a link in a chain, a bloody one, just like Hamas is in the Israel-Palestine conflict.
What's your take on it?
Sorry @That_Bloke I know absolutely nothing about the Nat Turner revolt, and feck all about the broader historical context I’m afraid.
Good for CNN. Should get shared more, and hope it puts as much pressure as possible on Biden to do SOMETHING to this Netanyahu sham.
Nice ending point as well of Netanyahu claiming responsiblity for government...unlike what he's doing for Oct 7th failings.
Use the Hamas 2017 Charter, for the sake of accuracy. You also forgot the elephant in the room which is clearly mentioned in the first two points of the Likud Charter:
a. "The right of the Jewish people to the land of Israel is eternal and indisputable and is linked with the right to security and peace; therefore, Judea and Samaria will not be handed to any foreign administration; between the Sea and the Jordan there will only be Israeli sovereignty." (Judea-Samaria being the West bank)
b. "A plan which relinquishes parts of western Eretz Israel, undermines our right to the country, unavoidably leads to the establishment of a "Palestinian State," jeopardizes the security of the Jewish population, endangers the existence of the State of Israel and frustrates any prospect of peace."
These two lines leave absolutely no room for doubt about the establishment of a Palestinian State. The Likud will never let it happen.
The line about peace you're boasting about involves the Arab countries in the region, not the Palestinians as a state.
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How come? I thought you knew everthing about everything
.A pity, I did a bit of research about both which I knew nothing about before that video and can personally see why one could make the comparison, but I'd really have liked to have more informed opinion.
Looking at the 2017 revised Hamas charter, here are a few points with regards to what's happening now:
Now I'm not saying Hamas are a peace organisation, far from it, their actions have proven that they're not. However, a lot of Western media say the Hamas charter states "they want to kill every Jew they can get their hands on.", which is not true.
Now I'm not saying Hamas are a peace organisation, far from it, their actions have proven that they're not. However, a lot of Western media say the Hamas charter states "they want to kill every Jew they can get their hands on.", which is not true.
The charter I referenced describes Eretz Israel as the area, as I said at that point its then if you interpret that the way your post has (which isn't in the version I read) versus the state of Israel as created in 1948. I don't know which was the true intention, but given the state of play when written in 1977, I believe Gaza was under Egyptian rule so it'd be odd to consider it part of Israel at the time.
Am sure many know vastly more than I, so shall let them clarify.
They’re typically referring to the original charter when speaking in those terms.
In 1977 Gaza and the entire Sinai Peninsula were under Israeli rule.
Debate over the territorial limits and concessions Likud may be willing to accept has typically (historically) centred around the question of whether to relinquish the claim to Jordan. Given there was no treaty with Jordan in 1977, the platform may be interpreted as deliberately ambiguous in that regard. But in fairness the claim to Jordan hasn’t been seriously proposed for decades.
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I feel like a few thousand Hamas members failed to read up on the new, shall we say, friendlier Charter if Oct 7th was any indication. Similarly, Netanyahu is hardly upholding the founding principles of Likud.
The passage usually used as evidence of Hamas feeling towards Judaism is the one about even the trees and stones telling the jihadists there are Jews hiding behind them, as to ensure easier murdering.
Relgioins kinda suck eh?
Lovely thank you, as I said, someone knows. So the interpretation of no Gaza being possible is correct?
Yeah, that's pretty much my point.*
I know Netenyahu has come out and said the new charter is a smoke screen. Whilst it's also clear that the Likud charter is absolute nonsense and just as bad.
The stones and trees segment is like the Amalek. Both used as ways to justify killing of the two religions. Barmy.
I can't see it changing any time soon but as long as these two tyrants are in power, nothing will change in that region.
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Happy to selectively quote Likud's charter (removing the really nasty bits) but for some reason you insist on posting Hamas' out dated charter. Then when you're called out you just say that they're both lies anyway. This is just so dishonest it's unreal.
You're seeing what you want to see. I was responding to direct questions on both, so only included parts relevant to those questions. I don't pretend to be an expert on either, I'm asking for guidance like anyone should. I encourage everyone to read the documents themselves.
Here is the source I used for the Likud founding charter (1977), in full: https://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/original-party-platform-of-the-likud-party
Here is the source I've previously used for the Hamas founding charter (1988), in full: https://avalon.law.yale.edu/20th_century/hamas.asp
As others have noted, Hamas have a much nicer, updated charter from 2017, you may read the entirety of that here: https://www.middleeasteye.net/news/hamas-2017-document-full
For me, personally, reading the two founding charters (admittedly translated into English in both cases) does not create a view that the two organisations are similar in many things, but if that's your interpretetation, that's fine.