Israel - Palestine Discussion | Post Respectfully | Discuss more, tweet less

Kaos said:
The only way to stop Israel commencing another slaughter in Rafa and to help cease the ongoing famine is if the US stops sponsoring it and demands the Israelis let aid in, its not that difficult. Drafting pointless resolutions like this one achieves nothing besides pathetically attempting to deflect culpability to powers like Russia and China. Thankfully it appears the wider world can see through the US' insincere posturing.
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Yes but that is pure pie in the sky fanaticism given that you already know the US is not going to ditch Israel. The resolution of course may not have made a big difference either given that a divided UN is feckless and unable to make a difference. What a galvanized resolution could've potentially done, is put more pressure on Netanyahu to not go into Rafa without a plan to mitigate civilian deaths. That doesn't appear very likely now given that the Israelis appear to be planning on going in irrespective of what the US or UN have to say about it.
 
Raoul said:
Yes but that is pure pie in the sky fanaticism given that you already know the US is not going to ditch Israel. The resolution of course may not have made a big difference either given that a divided UN is feckless and unable to make a difference. What a galvanized resolution could've potentially done, is put more pressure on Netanyahu to not go into Rafa without a plan to mitigate civilian deaths. That doesn't appear very likely now given that the Israelis appear to be planning on going in irrespective of what the US or UN have to say about it.
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Then you admit the whole spectacle is a little pointless. If the US is unwilling to reel the Israelis in then they only have themselves to blame for the impending slaughter and famine, not anyone who decided to veto/abstain this fruitless resolution.
 
Kaos said:
Then you admit the whole spectacle is a little pointless. If the US is unwilling to reel the Israelis in then they only have themselves to blame for the impending slaughter and famine, not anyone who decided to veto/abstain this fruitless resolution.
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Yes, ultimately the Israelis aren't going to listen to the UN. Netanyahu would however be under much more pressure than he is now if a galvanized UNSCR involving all five permanent members in agreement was passed. It would at a minimum buy those seeking to delay the Rafa invasion more leverage.
 
If there was any supporting argument against torching the United Nations, as a body, down to the ground before today, it just vanished today.

the_cliff said:
China and Russia are playing the game. Trying to gain influence with the Arabs in the middle East while the US shoot themselves in the foot.
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The Russians and the Chinese already shot themselves in the face a long time ago. I'm not even talking about how much of a joke whatever "aid" they send is.
 
RedDevilQuebecois said:
If there was any supporting argument against torching the United Nations, as a body, down to the ground before today, it just vanished today.


The Russians and the Chinese already shot themselves in the face a long time ago. I'm not even talking about how much of a joke whatever "aid" they send is.
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Really? Just today?
 
UN has a lot of positives with branches that gives humanitarian aid in many forms everywhere in the world. But as organization that was suppose to avoid conflicts like this, is as useless as the league of nations avoiding WWII. Useless from its inception with the cold war. Is not NOW that had been seen its inutility
 
Fridge chutney said:
Why would China vote against the ceasefire resolution? What do they stand to gain/lose?
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For what I read here, because it was not really a ceasefire

And Why would US vote against the ceasefire resolution 3 times? What do they stand to gain/lose?
 
Raoul said:
The Russians and Chinese not coming out of this looking particularly good. Not that Netanyahu would comply with any of these items if he thought they interfered with his military campaign.
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Are you for real? There is not a singel word of condemnation of the fecking destruction of the whole city and the slaughter of 15k child. Neither are there any clear wording for a ceasefire.
 
Fridge chutney said:
Why would China vote against the ceasefire resolution? What do they stand to gain/lose?
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The resolution presented by the US didn't explicitely call for an immediate cease-fire and tied it to the release of all hostages. There's also no mention of Israel, the coming offensive on Rafah, and its war crimes. The Russians said a few days ago that they would veto any resolution that doesn't call for an immediate cease-fire.

Even Algeria and the Arab countries were against it. Russia and China are pandering to them whilst further weakening the US on this matter and undermining Joe Biden.

As a general rule on the UNSC when it comes to Palestine, if the US and the UK vote for a resolution, it's never good for the Palestinians.
 
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Fridge chutney said:
Why would China vote against the ceasefire resolution? What do they stand to gain/lose?
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It's not a ceasefire.

It's: here, have some extra bread for few weeks so we can continue occupy your fecking land and continue killing more of your children.
 
Raoul said:
Likely because it would give their adversary the US, a win on the global stage.
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Not that I’m a fan of the Chinese, but posturing and preening on the world stage seems to be an exclusively American attribute.
 
The Corinthian said:
Not that I’m a fan of the Chinese, but posturing and preening on the world stage seems to be an exclusively American attribute.
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The big three of the security council routinely do it to one another. Its almost always the US rejecting a Russian or Chinese resolution and vice versa. Basically a pro-democracy v authoritarianism competition.
 
Raoul said:
The big three of the security council routinely do it to one another. Its almost always the US rejecting a Russian or Chinese resolution and vice versa. Basically a pro-democracy v authoritarianism competition.
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I don’t think that’s occurring here given the fact that Algeria and Guyana essentially pulled it apart. It’s hardly worth the paper it’s written on. Do you really think China/Russia vetoed it just to get one over the US? I’d say that’s quite a naive position to hold on this resolution in particular. More likely, it was vetoed by them and others as it’s a sham of a resolution. I mean here’s what the Chinese and Russian UN ambassadors have said:

Moscow accused Washington of a “hypocritical spectacle” that does not pressure Israel.

Russia’s ambassador to the UN, Vassily Nebenzia, said the draft was exceedingly politicised and contained an “effective green light” for Israel to mount a military operation in Gaza’s southernmost city of Rafah, where more than 1.5 million Palestinians are sheltering.

Nebenzia said there was no call for a ceasefire in the resolution’s text and accused the US leadership of “deliberately misleading the international community”.
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China’s representative, Zhang Jun, said the draft “dodged the most central issue, that of a ceasefire” through its “ambiguous” language.

“Nor does it even provide an answer to the question of realising a ceasefire in the short term,” he added.
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Even if both respective parties were trying to get one over the US, like you think they are - they’re not actually wrong in any of the reasons they’ve given. The resolution falls short on pretty much every measure you can think of. It’s farcical by the US and I’m glad it was picked apart by so many SC members.
 
Has there been any recent update on the status of the tunnel network? Considering how big a deal was made of it by the Israeli government as being the key to defeating Hamas and one of the big reasons there would likely be "unavoidable collateral damage," I would have thought that the IDF would have wanted to announce regularly any substantial gains there...regions taken/destroyed, command centres found, Hamas being penned into certain areas etc...Maybe I've just not been reading the right articles/accounts, but there doesn't seem to have been much at all for a long time. Vital need for operational secrecy? Personally, I suspect they just realised quite early on that they weren't going to need to justify wide-scale, surface destruction and civilian casualties too much with the "but the entrances to the tunnels and Hamas soldiers were in the basement of the housing block" stuff. Any focused military campaign on the network has long become a distant secondary objective to the collective punishment on the surface.
 
Raoul said:
The ceasefire is contingent on both parties agreeing to it, which can't be imposed by the UN in the absence of both Israel and Hamas agreeing to what they've been negotiating via Qatar and the US for weeks now. Therefore the ceasefire will only happen when both parties come to an agreement, not when the UN issues an unenforceable decree that would be ignored by the Israelis.

The deal that has allegedly been on the table for a hostage swap and 6 weeks of ceasefire should be accepted by Hamas. Even though Hamas don't want fighting to resume after the conclusion of that period, the six weeks can still be used to continue negotiations to extend it. At this time, that is the only option to avoid an imminent attack on Rafa, famine, and thousands more dead and wounded.
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Or, and I'm just spitballing here, Israel could follow international law and the international community could enforce that law (as they do whenever any non-white or western aligned nation's conduct is impugned) if Israel break it.
 
The Corinthian said:
I don’t think that’s occurring here given the fact that Algeria and Guyana essentially pulled it apart. It’s hardly worth the paper it’s written on. Do you really think China/Russia vetoed it just to get one over the US? I’d say that’s quite a naive position to hold on this resolution in particular. More likely, it was vetoed by them and others as it’s a sham of a resolution. I mean here’s what the Chinese and Russian UN ambassadors have said:

Even if both respective parties were trying to get one over the US, like you think they are - they’re not actually wrong in any of the reasons they’ve given. The resolution falls short on pretty much every measure you can think of. It’s farcical by the US and I’m glad it was picked apart by so many SC members.
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It absolutely is the case.

True, which made Russia's and China's job even easier. Don't think one bit that China or Russia actually care about the Palestinians.
 
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That_Bloke said:
It absolutely is the case.

True, which made Russian and China's job even easier. Don't think one bit that China or Russia actually care about the Palestinians.
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I don’t either. But I don’t think a bullish Israel (and subsequently US) right bang in the Middle East meets their aims either. China was the one to get Saudi and Iran to meet a few months ago, and they’ve been on the charm offensive in that part of the world and Africa over the last few years. But my point is I don’t think their veto is solely to get one over the US in this instance either. The resolution was dogshit, let’s be honest. The reasons they gave to veto were valid and they weren’t the only ones.
 
The Corinthian said:
I don’t either. But I don’t think a bullish Israel (and subsequently US) right bang in the Middle East meets their aims either. China was the one to get Saudi and Iran to meet a few months ago, and they’ve been on the charm offensive in that part of the world and Africa over the last few years. But my point is I don’t think their veto is solely to get one over the US in this instance either. The resolution was dogshit, let’s be honest. The reasons they gave to veto were valid and they weren’t the only ones.
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They made the US (and the UK) look like clowns on the international scene, although Biden might be able to sell the "Look, I tried but evil Russia and China vetoed it" in the States.

They are gaining massive points with the global South with their stance on Gaza whilst not moving a single finger.

So yeah, they vetoed it primarily to get one over the US.
 
That_Bloke said:
They made the US (and the UK) look like clowns on the international scene, although Biden might be able to sell the "I tried, but evil Russia and China vetoed it" in the States.

They are gaining massive points with the global South with their stance on Gaza whilst not moving a single finger.

So yeah, they vetoed it primarily toget one over the US.
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The only ones making the US like clowns are themselves. They don't need China
 
That_Bloke said:
They made the US (and the UK) look like clowns on the international scene, although Biden might be able to sell the "Look, I tried but evil Russia and China vetoed it" in the States.

They are gaining massive points with the global South with their stance on Gaza whilst not moving a single finger.

So yeah, they vetoed it primarily to get one over the US.
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The US and the UK did not need any help from Russia and China to look idiotic on the world stage. Furthermore, it’s part of Biden’s saving face strategy to put the blame solely on them two and his drones lap it up. How many news articles are mentioning Algeria and Guyana? They pulled that sham resolution apart for all to see.

Edit: and as I said even if they were trying to get one over the US, their statement to veto is totally valid. The US didn’t need their help to look moronic in this instance.
 
The Corinthian said:
The US and the UK did not need any help from Russia and China to look idiotic on the world stage. Furthermore, it’s part of Biden’s saving face strategy to put the blame solely on them two and his drones lap it up. How many news articles are mentioning Algeria and Guyana? They pulled that sham resolution apart for all to see.
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Thats the thing. Every resolution about Israel proposed by the US from the last 30 years gets shut down by China and Russia....and for a overwhelming majority of the UN. And every resolution that US shuts down (being China, Russia or another proponent) about Israel that China and Russia approves, is voted in favour for an overwhelming majority

And when I say overwhelming majority, sometimes is US and Israel in one side, UK abstaining and the rest of the UN in the other side

But yes, China and Russia are up to something. So the rest of the world. And they are making look US bad. Pesky the whole world
 
4bars said:
Thats the thing. Every resolution about Israel proposed by the US from the last 30 years gets shut down by China and Russia....and for a overwhelming majority of the UN. And every resolution that US shuts down (being China, Russia or another proponent) about Israel that China and Russia approves, is voted in favour for an overwhelming majority

And when I say overwhelming majority, sometimes is US and Israel in one side, UK abstaining and the rest of the UN in the other side

But yes, China and Russia are up to something. So the rest of the world. And they are making look US bad. Pesky the whole world
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That’s exactly it.

I’m no fan of Russia and China but I’m a bit sick of this gaslighting by the US and I imagine most people following this conflict are too.
 
4bars said:
The only ones making the US like clowns are themselves. They don't need China
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The Corinthian said:
The US and the UK did not need any help from Russia and China to look idiotic on the world stage. Furthermore, it’s part of Biden’s saving face strategy to put the blame solely on them two and his drones lap it up. How many news articles are mentioning Algeria and Guyana? They pulled that sham resolution apart for all to see.
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This "resolution" was nothing but damage control destined to the US public and nothing more.

The Biden administration perfectly knew that it would be vetoed and no one (outside the US) would fall for it, but they didn't have much of a choice. The US are in a "Damned if you do, damned if you don't" situation which is of their very own doing. It was out of question to criticize or put any meaningful pressure Israel, since not enough Palestinians have died yet for it to happen, but Biden had to do something given that this US sponsored massacre could very well cost him the election.

Palestinians are ranked somewhere below rats or cockroaches in the major Western governments, the ones that actually rule the world. There's a shift in the western public opinions, but the biggest western media is still overwhelmingly covering the events in favor of Israel. There's also enough people in the West who don't have the slightest clue or any meaningful knowledge about the Israel-Palestine conflict. Looking like clowns to the eyes of the global South is a price they'll gladly pay. Short-sighted but enough at the moment.

Just like the Ukraine War, the western governments just don't have any real plan and make shit up as they go. It's a headlong rush forward with the hope that things will sort themselves out at some point.
 
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That_Bloke said:
This "resolution" was nothing but damage control destined to the US public and nothing more.

The Biden administration perfectly knew that it would be vetoed and no one (outside the US) would fall for it, but they didn't have much of a choice. The US are in a "Damned if you, damned if you don't" situation which is of their very own doing. It was out of question to criticize or put any meaningful pressure Israel, since not enough Palestinians have died for it to happen, but Biden had to do something given that this US sponsored massacre could very well cost him the election.

Palestinians are ranked somewhere below rats or cockroaches in the major Western governments, the ones that actually rule the world. There's a shift in the western public opinions, but the major western media is still overwhelmingly covering the events in favor of Israel. There's also enough people in the West who don't have the slightest clue or knowledge about the Israel-Palestine conflict. Looking like clowns to the eyes of the global South is a price they'll gladly pay. Short-sighted but enough at the moment.

Just like the Ukraine War, the western governments just don't have any real plan and make shit up as they go. It's a headlong rush forward with the hope that things will sort themselves out at some point.
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I agree in most of what you say here. I don't understand the Subplot of China and Russia in your other recent posts, when is irrelevant in a shitty proposition that China and Russia has the same agenda about Israel - Palestine than the rest of the world.

Is completely normal that they don't have an agenda besides justice for Palestine like the rest of the world. That the US is the baddy is a happy coincidence. Who put the shitty resolution is the US not them and they have to vote in favour, against or abstained. and they simply voted what is fair, like the rest of the world

Mentioning them like going against the US is transferring the baddy vibe to them when the sole culprit of the countries that has veto is the US in this instance
 
That_Bloke said:
This "resolution" was nothing but damage control destined to the US public and nothing more.

The Biden administration perfectly knew that it would be vetoed and no one (outside the US) would fall for it, but they didn't have much of a choice. The US are in a "Damned if you do, damned if you don't" situation which is of their very own doing. It was out of question to criticize or put any meaningful pressure Israel, since not enough Palestinians have died yet for it to happen, but Biden had to do something given that this US sponsored massacre could very well cost him the election.

Palestinians are ranked somewhere below rats or cockroaches in the major Western governments, the ones that actually rule the world. There's a shift in the western public opinions, but the biggest western media is still overwhelmingly covering the events in favor of Israel. There's also enough people in the West who don't have the slightest clue or meaningful knowledge about the Israel-Palestine conflict. Looking like clowns to the eyes of the global South is a price they'll gladly pay. Short-sighted but enough at the moment.

Just like the Ukraine War, the western governments just don't have any real plan and make shit up as they go. It's a headlong rush forward with the hope that things will sort themselves out at some point.
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There’s not a lot I disagree with here but it bears little relevance to what we’ve been discussing on this page vis a vis Russia, China.
 
The Corinthian said:
There’s not a lot I disagree with here but it bears little relevance to what we’ve been discussing on this page vis a vis Russia, China.
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Doesn't it? I've must been intoxicated by my own brainfarts and got sidetracked then.

Aside from getting one over the US you previously mentioned "posturing and preening on the world stage being exclusive to the US" which is factually wrong. Russia and China (and many other countries) do the very same thing. They truly are up to something, which is feck the US over at every chance they get. Just like the US does. They also love gaslighting. Just like the US does.

It's not so much about the validity of their reasons to veto the resolution as to why they really vetoed it. Palestine just comes in handy at the moment. It could've been anything.

I hold US foreign policy in utmost contempt. I personally think that the US has been a blight on this planet since the end of WWII and call for a multipolar world where every superpower is kept in check by other ones. But let's not kid ourselves and think that Russia or China are suddenly cool and doing the right thing just because they happen to have a stance that coincidentally aligns with your view of the Israel-Palestine conflict.

4bars said:
I agree in most of what you say here. I don't understand the Subplot of China and Russia in your other recent posts, when is irrelevant in a shitty proposition that China and Russia has the same agenda about Israel - Palestine than the rest of the world.

Is completely normal that they don't have an agenda besides justice for Palestine like the rest of the world. That the US is the baddy is a happy coincidence. Who put the shitty resolution is the US not them and they have to vote in favour, against or abstained. and they simply voted what is fair, like the rest of the world

Mentioning them like going against the US is transferring the baddy vibe to them when the sole culprit of the countries that has veto is the US in this instance
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That's why they didn't lift so much of a pinkie for the past five decades and only opened their mouth in the last five months.

There's no such thing as fairness in international matters, especially when it involves major powers deciding the fate of plebs. You can bet your ass that if voting for the resolution would've served Russia's or China's interests, they'd have done it.

That will sell in the US and major parts of the Western world, which is the point. They are all baddies.
 
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