Israel - Palestine Discussion | Post Respectfully | Discuss more, tweet less

2cents said:
Moving away from the culture wars, you yourself have posted examples of past times when Reagan and Carter felt comfortable taking a relatively hard line against Begin’s excesses. Going further back, from 1949-1967 the State Department was not exactly a bastion of Zionist sympathizers, the Arabists were a major element whose loss of influence was a result of the overwhelming Israeli victory in the 6-Day War. After which mass American support for Israel really commenced, consolidated by the 1973 war. So history has shown that events and shifts of power in the region can play a role in defining the nature of the American commitment to Israel.

Which brings me to Chomsky’s (and others’) argument that ultimately, American support for Israel is dependent on Israel’s strategic value:

"the evolution of America’s relationship to Israel 'has been determined primarily by the changing role that Israel occupied in the context of America’s changing conceptions of its political-strategic interests in the Middle East'...it would be an error to assume that Israel represents the major U.S. interest in the Middle East. Rather, the major interest lies in the energy reserves of the region, primarily in the Arabian peninsula...​
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...Had it not been for Israel’s perceived geopolitical role—primarily in the Middle East, but elsewhere as well—it is doubtful that the various pro-Israeli lobbies in the U.S. would have had much influence in policy formation, or that the climate of opinion deplored by Peled and other Israeli doves could have been constructed and maintained. Correspondingly, it will very likely erode if Israel comes to be seen as a threat rather than a support to the primary U.S. interest in the Middle East region, which is to maintain control over its energy reserves and the flow of petrodollars." (from Fateful Triangle)​

It’s quite easy to understand American support in the context of the Cold War, and the resurgence in that support in the context of the War on Terror. Going forward, however, it’s much harder to foresee how Israel will continue to be perceived as such a valuable regional client, even if boring status quo “centrists” in the mold of Gantz or Lapid were to recapture Israeli politics. As it is, a full-blown Kahanist Israel will likely prove an absolute nightmare for broader American policy in the Middle East, not to mention self-destructive as pretty much all analogous ideologically-driven states tend to be.
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I guess what I didn't state outright, but was assuming, was that the change has to be political. The agencies and Pentagon may get sick of Israel quicker, but the decision is in the president's hands. And the lobby's moves - I agree there is some element of panic to them - nonetheless buy them a lot of extra time. The compulsory trip all but 3 people in Congress have have made to Israel right after getting elected, plus the money, plus the serious media, and everything else I mentioned - I think these bonds are deeper and more personal for US politicians than, say, US-Egypt. AIPAC spending more money on a single primary, than both UK parties will spend on the entire election, to defeat one vulnerable Congressman, shows there is no political future in staking out an anti-Israel position. On the bottom-up side, censoring universities will reduce public pressure on politicians too.

Basically, I agree there are long-term trends that would rationally allow the US to dump them, but that AIPAC and the current US establishment are building in buffers that will last many decades.

Your point about Carter and Reagan (and also HW, who publicly called AIPAC a threat to national security) is interesting - I never thought of it as showing the process is reversible, but I guess it does. And the difference could be partly down to Oslo, happening soon after HW was voted out (Clinton in the campaign said HW's fight against the lobby "eroded the taboo against anti-Semitism"). Again, I could barely read words when Oslo happened, so for me, every piece of news on this has been with Oslo as the (unstated) background.
 
berbatrick said:
I think these bonds are deeper and more personal for US politicians than, say, US-Egypt.
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This is certainly true. I should state that I don’t fully accept Chomsky’s argument laid out above - I don’t see the cultural attachment of America to Israel quickly withering in significance in the event of a strategic fall-out between the two countries. Take two regional allies with arguably more raw strategic value to the US - Turkey and Saudi Arabia. The alliance with the US shields them from much scrutiny they might otherwise receive. And they have their own lobbies, and think tanks which they fund, to be wielded in certain contexts where their policies raise eyebrows in Washington. But while they could each spend a gazillion dollars a year flying US politicians to their cities (the Saudis already do), their cultural, historical, and emotional appeal is limited and simply does not resonate for most Americans at this moment - America just doesn’t care all that much about them.

The Palestinians obviously face an even greater challenge due to their perceived association with Islamist “terror” and other radical politics to go on top of their basic Arab/Muslim identity, always subject to orientalist dehumanization. Which is partly why I believe a shift in their approach to a civil rights movement rather than a national liberation movement may be worth pursuing - a simple message of “equality for all” I suspect has the potential to resonate with Americans far more than the prospect of adding yet another Arab/Muslim state to the map of the region. But like I said, I understand why they haven’t taken up this approach as of yet, and seem unlikely to do so going forward.

berbatrick said:
many decades.
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Just to add, we may be thinking in terms of different timeframes. I certainly had “decades” in mind rather than “a decade” when I wrote that post.
 
I long for the day Israel is seen as a pariah state. And they deserve nothing less.
 
berbatrick said:
Maybe it's because I was born in the 90s and only have followed this since the mid or late-00s, but I've never understood the optimism of the Palestinians, or the non-Palestinian peace process people, or now the western one-staters. They all have a belief that this nuclear-armed state is going to collapse or yield...maybe it's religion, or maybe one had to live through the fall of the USSR to believe in that?
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You might find this interesting.
The Collapse of Zionism by Ilan Pappé
 


"They also bombed a medical clinic where the director of emergency services was killed. Additionally, they targeted municipal employees responsible for providing water to Gaza's citizens. This morning, they bombed aid distribution centers in a refugee camp, and shortly thereafter, they bombed similar centers in the Bani Suheila area of Khan Younis, south of the Gaza Strip".
 


Not only was used as a human shield, but also tortured, burned his back (for being on the hood of the car for a long time in the burning sun) and dehuminzed of course.
 
In Gaza, hunger is taking a toll on the bodies of children. The impact can last a lifetime.

Even when children survive, nutrition experts say food deprivation in the early years can do lasting damage.
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Guardian writers brain is incredibly stupid
GQ5_uE5XYAAFaoM
 
Giggsyking said:
Harbouring a war criminal. International law and everything.

The comments too :lol:.
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The Jefferson picture in the background would almost be considered too much in a movie.

“They have seduced the greater part of the tribes within our neighborhood, to take up the hatchet against us, and the cruel massacres they have committed on the women and children of our frontiers taken by surprise, will oblige us now to pursue them to extermination, or drive them to new seats beyond our reach". Thomas Jefferson

Could have been word for word said by an Israeli politician. While there are military and economic reasons as to why America has a close relationship with Israel. There is also a very fundamental connect between the two countries which is one form of colonisation recognising and helping another.
 
Displaced people were burned alive in some shelter schools last night and 51 have been murdered since morning because of Israel's bombing.

Another starved kid was killed today by Israel because of malnutrition and aid distribution centres keep getting bombed.

They also killed Haniyah's 80-year-old sister along with her son and 7 grandchildren.
 
Idxomer said:
Displaced people were burned alive in some shelter schools last night and 51 have been murdered since morning because of Israel's bombing.

Another starved kid was killed today by Israel because of malnutrition and aid distribution centres keep getting bombed.

They also killed Haniyah's 80-year-old sister along with her son and 7 grandchildren.
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What did Haniyah's 80 year old sister do? Did she plan the October attacks with Sinwar?
 
Just seen a video released by AJ showing leaked footage of the IOF using a dog to attack an elderly woman in her home. They really are brazen and sick.
 
2mufc0 said:
Just seen a video released by AJ showing leaked footage of the IOF using a dog to attack an elderly woman in her home. They really are brazen and sick.
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I've seen it, I would not want to post it here. It is disgusting and these IDF soldiers are just depraved of anything human. If anyone want to see it, google it or twitter it.
 
Does anyone work with any IDF cnuts here in the UK?

I've read reports about some returning from Gaza after taking part in the genocide, and they just blend back into society.
 
Tibs said:
Does anyone work with any IDF cnuts here in the UK?

I've read reports about some returning from Gaza after taking part in the genocide, and they just blend back into society.
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There will be thousands of murderers living happy lives throughout europe when this is over.
 
Tibs said:
Does anyone work with any IDF cnuts here in the UK?

I've read reports about some returning from Gaza after taking part in the genocide, and they just blend back into society.
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I work with a few former IDF guys, but given the industry I'm in that's hardly a surprise.
 
reelworld said:
Damn, didn't realize Ronay was a fecking zionist.
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I'd hesitate to attribute political ideology. It's more to do with fecklessness.

I think his comments should be looked at in the context of mainstream liberal discourse, where morality is heavily reduced to aesthetic choices.

Palestinians are still not granted victim status by the liberal establishment, or amongst polite liberal society. Their suffering must be caveated and their struggle only depicted as one half of a larger conflict.

Liberal media like the bbc and guardian have had their pants pulled down over this issue, and exposed for their complete lack of moral clarity by social media platforms. They get stuck pontificating, hand ringing, equivocating about a child blown to bits by the idf, whereas tik tok will simply post the video of it happening.
 
The thread about the lobby was closed, so this has to go here. You just have to admire their efficiency - constant vigilance for all dissenting media, and, of course, their success rate.

 
Sweet Square said:
The Jefferson picture in the background would almost be considered too much in a movie.

“They have seduced the greater part of the tribes within our neighborhood, to take up the hatchet against us, and the cruel massacres they have committed on the women and children of our frontiers taken by surprise, will oblige us now to pursue them to extermination, or drive them to new seats beyond our reach". Thomas Jefferson

Could have been word for word said by an Israeli politician. While there are military and economic reasons as to why America has a close relationship with Israel. There is also a very fundamental connect between the two countries which is one form of colonisation recognising and helping another.
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Takes one genocidal country to know one.
MDFC Manager said:
Heavy trigger warning

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Remove that, please. Or at least hide behind a spoiler warning.
 


I know a bit of history, in all of Israel's wars, there has never been such destruction. Not Quneitra in '67, not the Dahiya quarter in 2006. Yes, yes. I'm not sorry to say it and I'm glad about it— they brought this on themselves. We are also helping them to start anew. A city of a million people, like Jerusalem, empty of people. This is more than the Nakba we "did to them" in '48. Yes, there are losses. And it hurts, but this is war. And yes, each one is a world unto himself, but this is the price we unfortunately have to pay to live safely in our neighborhood. For every one of ours, 1000 of theirs go!!! The eternal nation is not afraid of a long path.
 
AfonsoAlves said:
wtf

1) about as effective as asking if you're a terrorist on those visa application forms

2) why the feck is this a requirement to be german?
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Because they are one of the few countries in the world responsible directly for 2 genocide and complicit in a third. They have to back colonialism by enforcing it into laws.
 
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