Jeremy Corbyn - Not Not Labour Party(?), not a Communist (BBC)

I'm looking forward to which heavyweight the PLP nominate as challenger this time. Owen Smith will be a tough act to follow.

My money is on Marvin the Immigration Mug, though I'm not sure the world is ready for a ceramic party leader.
 
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Dobba said:
I'm looking forward to which heavyweight the PLP nominate as challenger this time. Owen Smith will be a tough act to follow.
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Well, the challenge is not the primary concern right now is it? Corbyn supporters (or the Corbynistas) have been always insistent that Corbyn was behind the Remain movement. Lot of vocal support for Corbyn seemed to be from the young voters in the Remain camp. Won't they feel let down by this?
 
Dobba said:
I'm looking forward to which heavyweight the PLP nominate as challenger this time. Owen Smith will be a tough act to follow.
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Does it matter?

I haven't seen polling or whatever, but my general impression is that Corbyn's supporters last year don't support him now.

Doubt he'd get anywhere near the votes he got last year.
 
fishfingers15 said:
Well, the challenge is not the primary concern right now is it? Corbyn supporters (or the Corbynistas) have been always insistent that Corbyn was behind the Remain movement. Lot of vocal support for Corbyn seemed to be from the young voters in the Remain camp. Won't they feel let down by this?
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NinjaFletch said:
Does it matter?

I haven't seen polling or whatever, but my general impression is that Corbyn's supporters last year don't support him now.

Doubt he'd get anywhere near the votes he got last year.
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The whole political system is a circus and the country is fecked, enjoy the bits you can. It's going to be amusing watching the anti-Corbyn elements (i.e. the PLP) act like they're defending the wish of the people they spent most of the last 12 months calling trots and entryists.
 
Instead of muddling the issues, I'd like to hear the reasoning behind Corbyn and his clear line of thinking during Brexit. The guy seems a honourable man and maybe there is some method to this madness.
 
Dobba said:
The majority of constituencies, particularly those Labour held, voting to Leave is probably the biggest factor.
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That argument doesn't wash. The guy has never once in his life done something he didn't agree with for the sake of getting votes. That was half the reason he got elected.
 
Unmutual said:
That argument doesn't wash. The guy has never once in his life done something he didn't agree with for the sake of getting votes. That was half the reason he got elected.
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Well, that was the PLP's biggest argument for replacing him that they could find so again I'm just going to enjoy them complaining about him doing what they wanted him to do all along.

Article 50 is going to be triggered, whether it's with Corbyn as leader of the Labour party in it's current guise or with Angela Eagle after an snap election where MPs who personally wanted to remain but constituencies voted leave are shown the door and replaced by a Tory/Kipper. The Daily Mail/Sun 'Enemies of the People' slogan would be turned up to 11.
 
Unmutual said:
That argument doesn't wash. The guy has never once in his life done something he didn't agree with for the sake of getting votes. That was half the reason he got elected.
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The other explanation - that he secretly always wanted to leave but backed Remain - has similar flaws to it though.
 
NinjaFletch said:
The other explanation - that he secretly always wanted to leave but backed Remain - has similar flaws to it though.
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The idea he was unsure, was talked in to supporting remain but was unwilling to campaign in a way that would be hugely more pro-EU than he felt, seems a bit believable, to me.
 
NinjaFletch said:
The other explanation - that he secretly always wanted to leave but backed Remain - has similar flaws to it though.
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That's why it is interesting to see if Corbyn will set the record straight and come clean with his thinking on Brexit finally. It will be a test of his leadership if the young voters who backed Corbyn so vocally will still support him. If they do, then who can oppose him?
 
NinjaFletch said:
Perhaps, but it doesn't reflect well on him if that is true.
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Indeed but then I'm not sure there was an option that would've reflected well on him, if that was his feeling.

You can't come out and say 'I dunno - there are good things and bad things - up to you'.
 
You can if you're the President-elect. :D
 
NinjaFletch said:
The other explanation - that he secretly always wanted to leave but backed Remain - has similar flaws to it though.
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I'm not suggesting that. Corbyn is a known Eurosceptic, thats not really disputed, but that doesnt mean that he would have voted Leave necessarily, even if he were a backbencher. However it's given him a tin ear on Europe in a way that he doesnt have on austerity where his position is clear and undiluted. It means he simply doesn't see Europe as a fight worth having.

Put it this way, if we'd just voted in a referendum by 52:48 on a 75% turnout to switch to a fully privatised healthcare system, do you believe for one moment he would be so relaxed about waving it through?
 
DiseaseOfTheAge said:
Indeed but then I'm not sure there was an option that would've reflected well on him, if that was his feeling.

You can't come out and say 'I dunno - there are good things and bad things - up to you'.
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Not sure about that. If he campaigned for Remain, he should support Remain unless something fundamentally changed since Brexit vote.
 
fishfingers15 said:
Not sure about that. If he campaigned for Remain, he should support Remain unless something fundamentally changed since Brexit vote.
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That works, if he ever really agreed wholeheartedly with 'remain'. I'm not sure he did, nor, alas, gave such an impression, during the campaign.
 
To be fair, i don't mean it as a 'Bash Jeremy Corbyn' at all costs, but it definitely adds a intriguing subplot on Labour Party's role on Remain and as well as Jeremy Corbyn's young voter support.
 
fishfingers15 said:
Then it definitely goes against his image that he's not like other politicians.
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Not really.

It goes against the idea he is perfect. It doesn't go against the idea he is considerably more driven by his views, rather than their assumed popularity, than any leader of a major political party for a very long time.
 
DiseaseOfTheAge said:
Not really.

It goes against the idea he is perfect. It doesn't go against the idea he is considerably more driven by his views, rather than their assumed popularity, than any leader of a major political party for a very long time.
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On the contrary, doesn't it do exactly that? He campaigned for Remain during the Brexit vote. If he's following his own views now, then he didn't follow them during Brexit vote. You can't have it both ways, that he is driven by his views and he campaigned for Remain and now will tell his MP's to vote for Article 50. As somebody said before, if it's a vote on the nuclear weapons or healthcare, would he just put up with the 'British people has decided'?
 
fishfingers15 said:
On the contrary, doesn't it do exactly that? He campaigned for Remain during the Brexit vote. If he's following his own views now, then he didn't follow them during Brexit vote. You can't have it both ways, that he is driven by his views and he campaigned for Remain and now will tell his MP's to vote for Article 50. As somebody said before, if it's a vote on the nuclear weapons or healthcare, would he just put up with the 'British people has decided'?
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He exhibits strong views where he has strong views. He isn't very good at faking strong views when he's meant to.
 
Please let the PLP pick Jess Philips to run against Corbyn. Please, please, please.

She won't have to attack the Tories and she'll get herself on TV all the time, there is no way she'd turn that opportunity down.
 
I had a big, awkward argument at a family do last night, with a son of a family friend of a family friend. He thought Trump was preferable to Hillary because "at least America now has a fittingly evil figure head that we can righteously oppose"...Suffice to say it almost ruined the entire evening.

His outlook was basically "destroying the current system is the only way we'll progress" which while I partly understand, I found suicidally naive. Its relevant here because was a huge Corbyn fan as well, and wouldn't counter any notion of his unelectability, because apparently Trump had proved that centrists are now political poison. As someone that's largely sympathetic to Corbz, I found his attitude faintly terrifying. This is how we've allowed the right to seize power IMO, by letting the left become so divided, that elements of it would happily risk the world descending into fascist madness, to justify being righteous in opposition. It all but killed my dwindling support for Jezza (whom I still think is a decent man) because anyone who wants to burn the world just to be "right" is clearly more of a problem than a solution...Also, he had a pony tail. A top knot one too. Which I think we can all agree is the very worst kind.
 
Mockney said:
I had a big, awkward argument at a family do last night, with a son of a family friend of a family friend. He thought Trump was preferable to Hillary because "at least America now has a fittingly evil figure head that we can righteously oppose"...Suffice to say it almost ruined the entire evening.

His outlook was basically "destroying the current system is the only way we'll progress" which while I partly understand, I found suicidally naive. Its relevant here because was a huge Corbyn fan as well, and wouldn't counter any notion of his unelectability, because apparently Trump had proved that centrists are now political poison. As someone that's largely sympathetic to Corbz, I found his attitude faintly terrifying. This is how we've allowed the right to seize power IMO, by letting the left become so divided, that elements of it would happily risk the world descending into fascist madness, to justify being righteous in opposition. It all but killed my dwindling support for Jezza (whom I still think is a decent man) because anyone who wants to burn the world just to be "right" is clearly more of a problem than a solution...Also, he had a pony tail. A top knot one too. Which I think we can all agree is the very worst kind.
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I think your overestimating what is a very small group and something that is nothing new to Left wing politics

If we look at some of the recent work such as The World Transformed workshop done by the Cobryn campaign group Momentum or The Sanders Campaign(Both which are political efforts by left wing protest group from the past 10 years). Then this type of politics is for me completely optimistic and forward looking, more than anything that been offered by the Right Wing or Centrists anyway. Jacobin(A socialist magazine) put an event together on Inauguration day, it's well worth a watch and a good summary of this new Left politics.

 
Is Corbyn's brother a bit unhinged? He retweeted this yesterday:

Screen-Shot-2017-01-21-at-19.02.19.png
 
I'm looking forward to when trump comes to the uk...
No doubt corbyn and hid folk will be briefing about how he is going to tell trump off
And trump will decide to break with conventional protocol and not take the meeting choosing instead to tweet about how much of a looser corbyn is
I only hope corbyn takes the bait and ends up in a twitter war with him
 
sun_tzu said:
I'm looking forward to when trump comes to the uk...
No doubt corbyn and hid folk will be briefing about how he is going to tell trump off
And trump will decide to break with conventional protocol and not take the meeting choosing instead to tweet about how much of a looser corbyn is
I only hope corbyn takes the bait and ends up in a twitter war with him
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A reporter would inadvertently record Trump saying "who are you?" to Corbyn, after which Corbyn's team of experts that are definitely experts would release information that Jeremy's next move is to dye his hair to get noticed more. Just another bold step by the Labour juggernaut.
 
fishfingers15 said:
Instead of muddling the issues, I'd like to hear the reasoning behind Corbyn and his clear line of thinking during Brexit. The guy seems a honourable man and maybe there is some method to this madness.
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It's old left wing Labour politics pre New Labour. They see the EU as corporatist and pushing down wages.

He's seeing the Brexit result as affimation to follow his ideals, which he couldn't previously because none of his party wanted it.

On PMQs before Brexit, the special PMQs to discuss Brexit so it could be conveyed to the public, Corbyn asked about phone hacking as his first question.
 
Mockney said:
I had a big, awkward argument at a family do last night, with a son of a family friend of a family friend. He thought Trump was preferable to Hillary because "at least America now has a fittingly evil figure head that we can righteously oppose"...Suffice to say it almost ruined the entire evening.

His outlook was basically "destroying the current system is the only way we'll progress" which while I partly understand, I found suicidally naive. Its relevant here because was a huge Corbyn fan as well, and wouldn't counter any notion of his unelectability, because apparently Trump had proved that centrists are now political poison. As someone that's largely sympathetic to Corbz, I found his attitude faintly terrifying. This is how we've allowed the right to seize power IMO, by letting the left become so divided, that elements of it would happily risk the world descending into fascist madness, to justify being righteous in opposition. It all but killed my dwindling support for Jezza (whom I still think is a decent man) because anyone who wants to burn the world just to be "right" is clearly more of a problem than a solution...Also, he had a pony tail. A top knot one too. Which I think we can all agree is the very worst kind.
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Ive encountered a few people making the same kinds of arguments and I dont agree with it either - the idea that Trump is preferable to Clinton. But as far as looking for silver linings goes, I think he has a point. As you point out, the left IS massively divided, especially as the centre has been drifting rightwards for years. That wasnt going to change under Clinton. So no, I would never have voted for Trump, I wouldnt have even voted for an independent for fear of letting him in via the back door. But perhaps we will now see the left unite in opposition to the terrible things Trump will do in coming years, and maybe we will see a a stronger, more energised and more progressive candidate than Clinton running in 2020. And if (hopefully when) that candidate wins, maybe (s)he will do more to tackle the real problems we see in the US (and across the West) than Clinton would ever have done.

No that wont undo the damage that has been done in the interim. No I would not have wished for it to play out that way before the US election. But like I said, we are where we are and at this stage looking for silver linings is all we have.

Im also not sure I follow your logic in terms of how this applies to Corbyn. I presume you disagree with the conclusion that the centre is now political poison but you havent really explained why - not in this post anyway. To me it does seem like a reasonable conclusion, if you look at what has happened to Labour in this country and what has happened to the Dems in the US. This whole corporatist, Tory / Republican-lite position New Labour and the Democrats have taken, or been perceived to have taken, has not been working out for them at all. It is people like Corbyn and Sanders that have provided what energy the left currently has. And I am speaking as someone who would have identified with the centrist wings of those parties.

You might think that kind of hard left position is a recipe for disaster and that is definitely a worthwhile debate to have, but that doesnt seem to be the point you were making. Either way, believing those views to be naive isnt going to unite the left. I dont think the right has become as fragmented as it is because of the likes of Trump, anyway. The left has been fragmenting since it reinvented itself under Clinton and Blair, and maybe longer, and what we are seeing on the right is the response to it, not the cause.
 
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