Jeremy Corbyn - Not Not Labour Party(?), not a Communist (BBC)

[Nuts]

The one-off liking of a post obviously isn't the problem. It's that this stuff keeps on happening. Again and again. They may be minor incidents but Britain's Jewish population is kinda obviously concerned that the Labour leadership don't think it's a problem that some prominent party figures keep on accidentally doing or liking things that could be construed as problematic or anti-semitic.

I disagree. I just don’t see incidents from ‘prominent party figures’ happening ‘again and again’. That’s an exaggeration.

Frankly, the only thing I’ve seen recently that was without doubt anti-semitic was the attack ad that Alastair Campbell created against Michael Howard. It’s going a while back but it was indisputably anti-Semitic and from a ‘prominent figure’ who continually uses anti-semitism as a stick to beat Corbyn with.

 

[Shamwow]

I disagree. I just don’t see incidents from ‘prominent party figures’ happening ‘again and again’. That’s an exaggeration.

Frankly, the only thing I’ve seen recently that was without doubt anti-semitic was the attack ad that Alastair Campbell created against Michael Howard. It’s going a while back but it was indisputably anti-Semitic and from a ‘prominent figure’ who continually uses anti-semitism as a stick to beat Corbyn with.

What about when Alastair Campbell called Jon lansman (a Jew) a puppetmaster?

 

[jeff_goldblum]

There was an interesting article in the Times on this the other day. The writer made the point that all this supposed fresh thinking about Britain's problems, is anything but. It's comfort blanket stuff and deeply backwards looking: nationalising everything, ending school tests, scrap tuition fees, chuck pensioners even more money etc. Where stuff isn't backwards looking, it's timid - Brexit, a lack of a foreign policy. And all of it is mind-numbingly expensive. The only thing stopping it from the labelled the impractical wish list that it is, is the Tories are even worse.

Throwing money at pensioners for the simple reason that they're pensioners is one thing that infuriates me and which is a huge drain on our ability to spend money where it matters. Addressing pensioner poverty and social isolation is important, but I fail to see why we should be issuing freebies to well-off pensioners whose income in retirement exceeds that most working families and who have far fewer outgoings than a working family. The ageing population and their propensity to turn up to vote means pensioners are a voting bloc no-one dares antagonise under FPTP.

I'd argue a bit of wilful ignorance/laziness from the writer of that article on some of the other things. Labour policy on tuition fees, school testing and re-nationalisation isn't just a case of reverting back to what existed before, they do have alternative proposals which are 'fresh' in the sense that no-ones tried them in the UK before. Off the top of my head, Labour's proposed model for nationalisation bears little resemblence to the old school centralised nationalisation we used to have in this country.

 

[Kentonio]

No they didn’t. You’re just too gullible.

You do a great job of demonstrating the Labour leadership attitude. ‘Hey potential Labour voter, if you think we have done a shit job of dealing with anti-semitism in the party, then feck you, you’re clearly a gullible prick who doesn’t deserve the opportunity to vote for us!’.

I’m assuming the polls are just an anti-Corbyn capitalist plot too, right comrade..?

 

[Maticmaker]

feck me, are we really at the part where everyone's racist, so it's alright if Labour are too?

As a party, Labour are supposed to be committed to social justice and equality. That's a fair, decent goal, and I'd argue a lot of Corbyn's policies come close to helping achieve that, certainly much more so than his Tory or Lib Dem counterparts. But naturally if you're going to strive towards that goal then you're going to have higher standards for conduct than your right-wing counterparts: you're inevitably going to see inequality and discrimination as an evil that needs to be rooted out of society to the greatest extent possible, and a party that doesn't look to do this should not be one that appeals to someone on the left.

Look, I'll agree this discussion has to an extent been consistently overblown. Labour's problems with anti-semitism probably aren't as bad as the Tories' problems with anti-Muslim sentiment, and Boris will probably end up being their leader in spite of an array of offensive and derogatory comment he's made throughout his career on an almost impressively wide range of issues. But something being overblown doesn't mean it's not a problem: what's fascinating is the mental gymnastics on display here from both general posters online (like here) and the party leadership to determine that it's not a problem at all. Or that every time it rears its head it's just an accident. The MP for Peterborough may not be a genuine anti-semite - but what does it say about her if she associates in circles where it's rampant to the point where it's easy for her to accidentally like a post containing it?

This exactly the point, 'overblowing' what is a real problem, does nothing to solve the problem and in the worse case scenario can lead to a normalisation effect.

 

[BobbyManc]

There was an interesting article in the Times on this the other day. The writer made the point that all this supposed fresh thinking about Britain's problems, is anything but. It's comfort blanket stuff and deeply backwards looking: nationalising everything, ending school tests, scrap tuition fees, chuck pensioners even more money etc. Where stuff isn't backwards looking, it's timid - Brexit, a lack of a foreign policy. And all of it is mind-numbingly expensive. The only thing stopping it from the labelled the impractical wish list that it is, is the Tories are even worse.

Yeah I read that too. Bit of a strange article. He's basically making the argument that reversing a decade of austerity is 'comfort blanket stuff'. Well yeah, course it is, it would be comforting to know that working families don't have to rely on food banks to survive and that local councils are properly funded. School tests are unpopular among teachers, students and parents, but somehow it's backwards for Labour to be listening and responding to these concerns. The article is pretty rubbish. It's criticising Labour for having the audacity to adopt and endorse policies which could be described as popular, and somehow construes things such as making housing, social care and university education more affordable and accessible as 'backwards looking'. You can discuss the viability or the merit of such policies if you wish, but 'backwards looking'? That's a strange angle to take.

As for the lack of a foreign policy, I'm only guessing that he assumes that no longer arming the likes of Saudi Arabia would constitute no foreign policy. See for instance https://bfpg.co.uk/2017/05/labour-manifesto-pledges-on-uk-foreign-policy/ which summarises Labour's foreign policy in its 2017 manifesto, which could hardly be accused of being inchoate or nebulous.

It always disturbs me when people describe stuff like basic access to services that determine someone's ability to feed themselves and their families as an 'impractical wish list'. It reminds of when Raab dismissed a disabled woman's concerns about government cuts to social care by blithely responding that there was no merit in discussing 'a childish wish list'. Yeah, because the height of childishness is hoping that your ability to survive isn't impeded by brutal government cuts. Austerity is and always has been an ideological choice rather than a necessity.

 

[SteveJ]

Yeah I read that too. Bit of a strange article. He's basically making the argument that reversing a decade of austerity is 'comfort blanket stuff'. Well yeah, course it is, it would be comforting to know that working families don't have to rely on food banks to survive and that local councils are properly funded. School tests are unpopular among teachers, students and parents, but somehow it's backwards for Labour to be listening and responding to these concerns. The article is pretty rubbish. It's criticising Labour for having the audacity to adopt and endorse policies which could be described as popular, and somehow construes things such as making housing, social care and university education more affordable and accessible as 'backwards looking'. You can discuss the viability or the merit of such policies if you wish, but 'backwards looking'? That's a bizarre angle to take.

As for the lack of a foreign policy, I'm only guessing that he assumes that no longer arming the likes of Saudi Arabia would constitute no foreign policy. See for instance https://bfpg.co.uk/2017/05/labour-manifesto-pledges-on-uk-foreign-policy/ which summarises Labour's foreign policy in its 2017 manifesto, which could hardly be accused of being inchoate or nebulous.

It always disturbs me when people describe stuff like basic access to services that determine someone's ability to feed themselves and their families as an 'impractical wish list'. It reminds of when Raab dismissed a disabled woman's concerns about government cuts to social care by blithely responding that there was no merit in discussing 'a childish wish list'. Yeah, because the height of childishness is hoping that your ability to survive isn't impeded by brutal government cuts. Austerity is and always has been an ideological choice rather than a necessity.

*applauds*

 

[Sweet Square]

Yeah I read that too. Bit of a strange article. He's basically making the argument that reversing a decade of austerity is 'comfort blanket stuff'. Well yeah, course it is, it would be comforting to know that working families don't have to rely on food banks to survive and that local councils are properly funded. School tests are unpopular among teachers, students and parents, but somehow it's backwards for Labour to be listening and responding to these concerns. The article is pretty rubbish. It's criticising Labour for having the audacity to adopt and endorse policies which could be described as popular, and somehow construes things such as making housing, social care and university education more affordable and accessible as 'backwards looking'. You can discuss the viability or the merit of such policies if you wish, but 'backwards looking'? That's a strange angle to take.

As for the lack of a foreign policy, I'm only guessing that he assumes that no longer arming the likes of Saudi Arabia would constitute no foreign policy. See for instance https://bfpg.co.uk/2017/05/labour-manifesto-pledges-on-uk-foreign-policy/ which summarises Labour's foreign policy in its 2017 manifesto, which could hardly be accused of being inchoate or nebulous.

It always disturbs me when people describe stuff like basic access to services that determine someone's ability to feed themselves and their families as an 'impractical wish list'. It reminds of when Raab dismissed a disabled woman's concerns about government cuts to social care by blithely responding that there was no merit in discussing 'a childish wish list'. Yeah, because the height of childishness is hoping that your ability to survive isn't impeded by brutal government cuts. Austerity is and always has been an ideological choice rather than a necessity.

Great post.

 

[Kentonio]

Yeah I read that too. Bit of a strange article. He's basically making the argument that reversing a decade of austerity is 'comfort blanket stuff'. Well yeah, course it is, it would be comforting to know that working families don't have to rely on food banks to survive and that local councils are properly funded. School tests are unpopular among teachers, students and parents, but somehow it's backwards for Labour to be listening and responding to these concerns. The article is pretty rubbish. It's criticising Labour for having the audacity to adopt and endorse policies which could be described as popular, and somehow construes things such as making housing, social care and university education more affordable and accessible as 'backwards looking'. You can discuss the viability or the merit of such policies if you wish, but 'backwards looking'? That's a strange angle to take.

As for the lack of a foreign policy, I'm only guessing that he assumes that no longer arming the likes of Saudi Arabia would constitute no foreign policy. See for instance https://bfpg.co.uk/2017/05/labour-manifesto-pledges-on-uk-foreign-policy/ which summarises Labour's foreign policy in its 2017 manifesto, which could hardly be accused of being inchoate or nebulous.

It always disturbs me when people describe stuff like basic access to services that determine someone's ability to feed themselves and their families as an 'impractical wish list'. It reminds of when Raab dismissed a disabled woman's concerns about government cuts to social care by blithely responding that there was no merit in discussing 'a childish wish list'. Yeah, because the height of childishness is hoping that your ability to survive isn't impeded by brutal government cuts. Austerity is and always has been an ideological choice rather than a necessity.

Great stuff.

 

[Nuts]

You do a great job of demonstrating the Labour leadership attitude. ‘Hey potential Labour voter, if you think we have done a shit job of dealing with anti-semitism in the party, then feck you, you’re clearly a gullible prick who doesn’t deserve the opportunity to vote for us!’.

I’m assuming the polls are just an anti-Corbyn capitalist plot too, right comrade..?

Generally agree, although Labour have been mostly ahead recently. They certainly compounded polling expectations in Peterborough.

 

[Cheesy]

This exactly the point, 'overblowing' what is a real problem, does nothing to solve the problem and in the worse case scenario can lead to a normalisation effect.

Something being overblown doesn't make it entirely untrue though. It's false to argue there's an anti-semitism epidemic within Labour and I don't think Corbyn as an individual is particularly anti-semitic or someone with a dislike towards the Jewish population; nevertheless there have been continual cases of anti-semitic comments and stances within the party recently which have either been tacitly cast aside or condemned far too lightly. And even if it is overblown, a historical look at what's happened when anti-semitism flourishes is probably why the UK's Jewish population (generalising slightly) are going to be extremely concerned at anything which could be construed as demeaning or discriminatory towards them.

 

[Cheesy]

Generally agree, although Labour have been mostly ahead recently. They certainly compounded polling expectations in Peterborough.

They've come out 1st in plenty but more so in the sense that the UK has increasingly shifted to four-way politics recently with four major parties all threatening to hit 15% or above when it comes to voting intentions: coupled with that has been a sudden and sharp Tory decline. The Tories will likely reverse their decline quite quickly if a hard Brexiteer like Boris takes charge but whether Corbyn will be able win back those defecting to the Lib Dems is another matter.

 

[Sweet Square]

And even if it is overblown, a historical look at what's happened when anti-semitism flourishes is probably why the UK's Jewish population (generalising slightly) are going to be extremely concerned at anything which could be construed as demeaning or discriminatory towards them.

But it's clearly not in the labour party and if there is this concerned over anything that could anti semitic, where were the protests over the tory support for
Viktor Orbán ? Plus the reaction from the labour party towards anti semitism in the party has clearly been good, they've suspend people, put out great videos showing people how anti semitism can happened and they've adopted the 11 IHRA examples. They done a ton of good work towards at making the party a better anti racist party.

Honestly it just be better for everyone involved to admit the sticking issue is Palestine.

 

[Ubik]

Something being overblown doesn't make it entirely true though. It's false to argue there's an anti-semitism epidemic within Labour and I don't think Corbyn as an individual is particularly anti-semitic or someone with a dislike towards the Jewish population; nevertheless there have been continual cases of anti-semitic comments and stances within the party recently which have either been tacitly cast aside or condemned far too lightly. And even if it is overblown, a historical look at what's happened when anti-semitism flourishes is probably why the UK's Jewish population (generalising slightly) are going to be extremely concerned at anything which could be construed as demeaning or discriminatory towards them.

It's strange this has to be spelled out when one member of the NEC has been recorded (twice) engaging in fairly straightforward antisemitic behaviour, and another who, whilst chair of disputes, ignored actual holocaust denial.

 

[ZupZup]

There are quite literally large numbers of people scouring the internet activities and social media of people they don't know just to try and find something they can shout 'anti-semite' at and link it back to the Labour party. A lot of it is actually very tenuous and nobody would ever get the benefit of the doubt about anything they interact with online because outrage is what we need. It's actually quite weird behaviour when you think about it.

I absolutely do not condone any racist behaviour online or otherwise, but I do find the imbalance in the way it is examined and how people go out searching for it like it's their second job pretty fecking strange.

A lot of the time I see comments like “shared a platform with” used as stick to beat someone with and a lot of stuff is just pure guilt by association.

Maybe it’s just the little bubble I am in... but it feels like I see and read more about anti-semitism in the British news than practically all other types of racism combined... despite it almost certainly being a lot less prevalent than racism against Black people or Islamophobia for example which also tend to manifest in a lot of ways that go far beyond comments posted on social media.

 

[Cheesy]

But it's clearly not in the labour party and if there is this concerned over anything that could anti semitic, where were the protests over the tory support for Viktor Orbán ? Plus the reaction from the labour party towards anti semitism in the party has clearly been good, they've suspend people, put out great videos showing people how anti semitism can happened and they've adopted the 11 IHRA examples. They done a ton of good work towards at making the party a better anti racist party.

Honestly it just be better for everyone involved to admit the sticking issue is Palestine.

The Tories are cnuts as well. We know this. It doesn't excuse the multiple examples we've seen come from Labour. Their response has been mixed - sometimes prompt, sometimes a bit more delayed.

 

[Cheesy]

It's strange this has to be spelled out when one member of the NEC has been recorded (twice) engaging in fairly straightforward antisemitic behaviour, and another who, whilst chair of disputes, ignored actual holocaust denial.

Aye, there's something deeply concerned when a party committed to social justice and equality start waving this away as being not a problem even if Jewish people are quite clearly saying there is a problem, and when it's seemingly fine because it's being overblown and because the Tories are cnuts too.

 

[Cheesy]

There are quite literally large numbers of people scouring the internet activities and social media of people they don't know just to try and find something they can shout 'anti-semite' at and link it back to the Labour party. A lot of it is actually very tenuous and nobody would ever get the benefit of the doubt about anything they interact with online because outrage is what we need. It's actually quite weird behaviour when you think about it.

I absolutely do not condone any racist behaviour online or otherwise, but I do find the imbalance in the way it is examined and how people go out searching for it like it's their second job pretty fecking strange.

A lot of the time I see comments like “shared a platform with” used as stick to beat someone with and a lot of stuff is just pure guilt by association.

Maybe it’s just the little bubble I am in... but it feels like I see and read more about anti-semitism in the British news than practically all other types of racism combined... despite it almost certainly being a lot less prevalent than racism against Black people or Islamophobia for example which also tend to manifest in a lot of ways that go far beyond comments posted on social media.

The fact there was a massive attempt to literally drive them to extinction not all that long ago probably has something to do with it...

 

[Sweet Square]

The Tories are cnuts as well. We know this. It doesn't excuse the multiple examples we've seen come from Labour. Their response has been mixed - sometimes prompt, sometimes a bit more delayed.

Er what ? I wasn't.

My point is that if there's such sensitive to anti semitism in British politics why wasn't there protest toward the British government being the only european country working with and supporting a anti semitic leader ?

 

[Cheesy]

Er what ? I wasn't.

My point is that if such sensitive to anti semitism in British politics why wasn't there protest toward the British government being the only european country working with and supporting a anti semitic leader ?

Support is probably the wrong word for it; for the most part the Tories have cynically engaged with Orban on the basis that he's Hungary's leader and there's little they can do to change that with rhetoric alone. There ideally should be more anger directed to Orban in general across Europe considering his illiberal policies and blatant anti-semitism but international politics tends not to work that way. There's very little anyone here can do to combat Orban for the most part. Whereas the current complaints against Labour are being directed against an active UK party.

The Tories themselves don't exactly have a great history with anti-semitism, Widdecombe's comments about Howard back in the day being an immediate notable example, but I'm still not sure how that relates to Labour who as a leftist party should naturally have higher standards when it comes to equality and justice etc.

 

[Maticmaker]

Something being overblown doesn't make it entirely untrue though. It's false to argue there's an anti-semitism epidemic within Labour and I don't think Corbyn as an individual is particularly anti-semitic or someone with a dislike towards the Jewish population; nevertheless there have been continual cases of anti-semitic comments and stances within the party recently which have either been tacitly cast aside or condemned far too lightly. And even if it is overblown, a historical look at what's happened when anti-semitism flourishes is probably why the UK's Jewish population (generalising slightly) are going to be extremely concerned at anything which could be construed as demeaning or discriminatory towards them.

I did not say that it did, I am simply making the point that 'racist' is now a term frequently used perniciously in the wrong context, consequently this can devalue its use in the right context and anti-Semitism, in the Labour party, is the right context. What's, more the Labour party has been slow to respond effectively to this charge and has been even slower to demonstrate it will not be tolerated. Anti-Semitism, in many forms, has been 'hanging around' in the Labour party for many years (certainly when I was a member) sometimes at very high levels, but most certainly in the wing of the party that became known (in my time) as the 'looney left'. For the majority of the people I knew, who were traditional working class blue-collar people, it was ignored, instead of being challenged and it was one (of a number of reasons) I left the party, sometime ago.

I have no idea what primary form the anti-Semitism takes these days in the Labour party, but the so called hatred for the State of Israel, was often the cover for anti-Semitic views in my time, I suppose that's just got worse. I felt uncomfortable with the position but in truth I also left for other reasons, I should have stood up against it but to my personal shame I didn't. I do honestly believe most traditional labour members would still find this anti-Semitism abhorrent, but like me in my time, they are worried about other matters in the party (e.g. where to go on Brexit) and that could be a not only wrong, but a fatal mistake for the Party's hopes of one day winning power in Westminster

 

[JohnnyKills]

This thread shows exactly what Corbyn’s enemies are trying to do - The Art of Bore only ever talks about anti-semitism.

They’ve succeeded in shifting the debate - the Tories are suffering from a dearth of ideas to solve domestic problems in the UK and they don’t want anyone to see the energy and hope that surround the Labour Party membership.

Far easier to effectively demonise them all as racists. There are so many decent Labour Party members who have very honourable intentions and they’re having to spend all their time and energy engaging with the anti-semitism debate, constantly under threat of being called racist if they defend Corbyn. It’s grotesque.

Any more grotesque than the way Corbyn's supporters throw labels and insults at the Tories, or indeed the Blairites? Any more grotesque than the myopic views they espouse about Israel? Any more grotesque than the expulsion of Alistair Campbell for the crime of being a centrist?

Most people aren't anti-Corbyn because they fear him. They're just sad that one of our great parties has sunk so far. Sorry but that's the truth.

 

[ZupZup]

The fact there was a massive attempt to literally drive them to extinction not all that long ago probably has something to do with it...

What point are you exactly trying to make? The fact that 75 years ago a right wing dictator wanted to exterminate Jews... so we should put anti-semitism on a pedestal above other forms of racism?

Do you seriously believe a socialist Labour party is the start of a slippery slope to another genocide?

 

[Silva]

the expulsion of Alistair Campbell for the crime of being a centrist?

 

[berbatrick]

Any more grotesque than the way Corbyn's supporters throw labels and insults at the Tories, or indeed the Blairites? Any more grotesque than the myopic views they espouse about Israel? Any more grotesque than the expulsion of Alistair Campbell for the crime of being a centrist?

Most people aren't anti-Corbyn because they fear him. They're just sad that one of our great parties has sunk so far. Sorry but that's the truth.

Alastair Campbell called Jon lansman (a Jew) a puppetmaster?

anti-semitic was the attack ad that Alastair Campbell created against Michael Howard.

my words here disturb this portrait of perfect irony

 

[Cheesy]

What point are you exactly trying to make? The fact that 75 years ago a right wing dictator wanted to exterminate Jews... so we should put anti-semitism on a pedestal above other forms of racism?

Do you seriously believe a socialist Labour party is the start of a slippery slope to another genocide?

No, of course they aren't.

My point is that the Jewish people as a whole have for centuries been subjected to constant and unrelenting discrimination which culminated in an attempt to exterminate them. That anti-semitism while perpetrated by a fascist was often widespread across all isles of the political spectrum. And so naturally the Jewish people are very concerned whenever they perceive someone as acting in a way which they feel threatens them.

 

[JohnnyKills]

What point are you exactly trying to make? The fact that 75 years ago a right wing dictator wanted to exterminate Jews... so we should put anti-semitism on a pedestal above other forms of racism?

Do you seriously believe a socialist Labour party is the start of a slippery slope to another genocide?

Don't think anyone seriously believes that. But the fanatically partisan way Corbyn and many of his supporters view Israel raises serious questions about whether he can trusted.

 

[JohnnyKills]

Support is probably the wrong word for it; for the most part the Tories have cynically engaged with Orban on the basis that he's Hungary's leader and there's little they can do to change that with rhetoric alone. There ideally should be more anger directed to Orban in general across Europe considering his illiberal policies and blatant anti-semitism but international politics tends not to work that way. There's very little anyone here can do to combat Orban for the most part. Whereas the current complaints against Labour are being directed against an active UK party.

The Tories themselves don't exactly have a great history with anti-semitism, Widdecombe's comments about Howard back in the day being an immediate notable example, but I'm still not sure how that relates to Labour who as a leftist party should naturally have higher standards when it comes to equality and justice etc.

Don't think most right-thinking people would endorse Anne Widdecombe either.

 

[Cheesy]

Don't think most right-thinking people would endorse Anne Widdecombe either.

She was a fairly prominent Tory back in the day and wasn't exactly vastly outside the party mainstream.

 

[Sweet Square]

Support is probably the wrong word for it; for the most part the Tories have cynically engaged with Orban on the basis that he's Hungary's leader and there's little they can do to change that with rhetoric alone. There ideally should be more anger directed to Orban in general across Europe considering his illiberal policies and blatant anti-semitism but international politics tends not to work that way. There's very little anyone here can do to combat Orban for the most part.

Come on thats a kop out, the tories were the only ones in Europe to support Orban, all they had to do is follow the rest of Europe. As for well international politics is tricky, half the anti semitic claims are over Corbyn history of international politics.

I'm still not sure how that relates to Labour who as a leftist party should naturally have higher standards when it comes to equality and justice etc.

From the post I first quoted you on

And even if it is overblown, a historical look at what's happened when anti-semitism flourishes is probably why the UK's Jewish population (generalising slightly) are going to be extremely concerned at anything which could be construed as demeaning or discriminatory towards them.

Again my point isn't that the tories are worse so who cares, I'm glad the party has change to be become better at fighting anti semitism. It's that if you are saying a group of people are going to be extremely concerned at anything which could be construed as demeaning or discriminatory towards them then you have to have a answer as to why there was pretty much nothing said over tories support for Orban.

 

[Silva]

She was a fairly prominent Tory back in the day and wasn't exactly vastly outside the party mainstream.

It'd be hard for someone outside the party mainstream to become a minister

 

[ZupZup]

No, of course they aren't.

My point is that the Jewish people as a whole have for centuries been subjected to constant and unrelenting discrimination which culminated in an attempt to exterminate them. That anti-semitism while perpetrated by a fascist was often widespread across all isles of the political spectrum. And so naturally the Jewish people are very concerned whenever they perceive someone as acting in a way which they feel threatens them.

I don’t disagree with any of that and my post didn’t say otherwise. If you have an issue with what what I actually said because you disagree with something I’ve written, fair enough.

I can be uncomfortable with how much scrutiny and prevalence anti-semitism gets by the media in comparison to other forms of racism whilst still understanding why Jewish people would be very sensitive to any racism against them.

By putting any strand of racism above others in terms of priority we do a massive disservice to fighting racism.

 

[JohnnyKills]

She was a fairly prominent Tory back in the day and wasn't exactly vastly outside the party mainstream.

If we're justifying the behaviour of Corbyn supporters by comparing them to Anne Windecombe, it's hardly a ringing endorsement of him is it.

'whataboutery' is a fairly weak argument anyway. It's fairly evident there are plenty of fruitcakes in the Tory Party but I don't see how that justifies some of the stuff we're seeing in the Labour Party.

 

[Silva]

This week, a poll for the Jewish -Chronicle found that 69 per cent of Jews intend to vote Tory next month, with Labour trailing on only 22 per cent. Moreover, while 64 per cent said David Cameron had the best attitude towards British Jewry, only 13 per cent picked Miliband as the best supporter of the community. The Jewish Chronicle poll found 73 per cent of Jews said the parties’ approach toward Israel and the Middle East was ‘very’ or ‘quite’ important in determining how they would vote, and by 65 to 10 per cent Cameron led Miliband on having the best attitude.

for the record, this isn't a new phenomenon, it's just a more explicit form of attack now that labour aren't led by a Jewish person.

 

[Silva]

it's not a case of "what about x", it's a critique of why anti-semitism in labour is suddenly the most important thing. The base level of anti-semitism in the UK is pretty high, it's pretty high in labour, it was pretty high when centrist Alistair Campbell had power within the party, but it didn't matter for some reason. Then Ed Milliband was elected to the leadership and the left wing of the party slowly gained power and started to promote more anti-imperialist foreign policies, that's when the party lost both the faith and vote of a majority of British jews.

Labour should kick out every anti semite they can find, especially those in positions of power. And this will make zero differences to either the narrative of antisemitism or the voting patterns in UK elections. The only way this will stop is if labour changes it's foreign policy and they do that, they'll lose the left.

 

[Nuts]

If we're justifying the behaviour of Corbyn supporters by comparing them to Anne Windecombe, it's hardly a ringing endorsement of him is it.

'whataboutery' is a fairly weak argument anyway. It's fairly evident there are plenty of fruitcakes in the Tory Party but I don't see how that justifies some of the stuff we're seeing in the Labour Party.

I think the point is more that you’ve never been seen to protest against Tory party Islamophobia to anything like the extent to which you’ve concerned yourself with anti-semitism.

This leads to the very real fear that a good deal of this is simply being weaponised against a politician who has had everything else thrown at him by his enemies. Those enemies have found that this sticks - it’s very hard to refute racist allegations without getting into further trouble - and I, for one, find it deeply offensive that some have used allegations of racism in bad faith.

 

[Nuts]

for the record, this isn't a new phenomenon, it's just a more explicit form of attack now that labour aren't led by a Jewish person.

Doesn’t Corbyn have some Jewish ancestory?

 

[Cheesy]

it's not a case of "what about x", it's a critique of why anti-semitism in labour is suddenly the most important thing. The base level of anti-semitism in the UK is pretty high, it's pretty high in labour, it was pretty high when centrist Alistair Campbell had power within the party, but it didn't matter for some reason. Then Ed Milliband was elected to the leadership and the left wing of the party slowly gained power and started to promote more anti-imperialist foreign policies, that's when the party lost both the faith and vote of a majority of British jews.

Labour should kick out every anti semite they can find, especially those in positions of power. And this will make zero differences to either the narrative of antisemitism or the voting patterns in UK elections. The only way this will stop is if labour changes it's foreign policy and they do that, they'll lose the left.

I don't have the polls at hand, but hasn't there been a sharp increase among the Jewish population of people who think the current Labour Party (I'd imagine in part due to Corbyn) is anti-semitic as a whole?

Of course, there is an argument that this is because (like you've referred to above) they generally vote Tory and so may be scared off by Corbyn's leftist policies, and it may be because of his often fair criticisms of the Israeli state.

But then that starts to veer into very, very problematic territory where we're essentially willing to dismiss the views of the UK's Jewish population (if they do indeed think anti-semitism has risen under Corbyn) when they're arguing they're being discriminated against because of their political allegiances. For the most part if a minority group argues they're being discriminated against then I'd think a common argument of the left would be that it's not really for the majority to simply dismiss that when they're not impacted by that same prejudices themselves; does that not then apply here? If a Tory MP, for example, dismissed allegations of Islamaphobia by asserting that Muslims vote for Labour and so are just trying to smear the party they don't like, then I'd expect outrage.

It's sort of wandering into messy territory to an extent but it's perhaps relevant to the discussion.

 

[Red Dreams]

Being against the Isreali state currently, which is valid obviously does not equate to anti-semitism.
Surely Jews can understand that.

 

[Silva]

Doesn’t Corbyn have some Jewish ancestory?

idk

I don't have the polls at hand, but hasn't there been a sharp increase among the Jewish population of people who think the current Labour Party (I'd imagine in part due to Corbyn) is anti-semitic as a whole?

Of course, there is an argument that this is because (like you've referred to above) they generally vote Tory and so may be scared off by Corbyn's leftist policies, and it may be because of his often fair criticisms of the Israeli state.

But then that starts to veer into very, very problematic territory where we're essentially willing to dismiss the views of the UK's Jewish population (if they do indeed think anti-semitism has risen under Corbyn) when they're arguing they're being discriminated against because of their political allegiances. For the most part if a minority group argues they're being discriminated against then I'd think a common argument of the left would be that it's not really for the majority to simply dismiss that when they're not impacted by that same prejudices themselves; does that not then apply here? If a Tory MP, for example, dismissed allegations of Islamaphobia by asserting that Muslims vote for Labour and so are just trying to smear the party they don't like, then I'd expect outrage.

It's sort of wandering into messy territory to an extent but it's perhaps relevant to the discussion.

As I said, this began with Milliband and was a response to the parties platform changes. The Jewish vote was solidly with New Labour, partially as a response to the post-Thatcherite tory era where Palestine-sympathies rose to the top of the tory party. Before that it was solidly with Thatcher, it's not really a voting block that's always been x or y.

Actual antisemitism in labour is pretty high, it's pretty high in the UK generally and there are still violent antisemitic attacks, though they're not specifically linked to labour you can see why jewish people wouldn't be 100% happy living here. My issue is with the idea that the current leadership is what caused all this antisemitism - it's always been there, even within the New Labour leadership. And the counterproductive nature of the criticism of Labours antisemitism, as it stands it's used as a political tool by public figures who are outwardly racist and promote much of the divisive, othering language that causes this type of racism in the first place.

Stephen Pollard for example is the most frequently wheeled around figure who talks about labours antisemitism, he has a history of flat out making up islamophobic shit and accusing muslims groups of being genocidal etc. even when they absolutely are not. Then of course you have the countless politicians who consistently vote against asylum seekers rights giving us all this shit about caring about a persecuted group. It's not just galling listening to these people, it will do nothing to stop antisemitism or racism in general. If you're going to seriously attempt to end systemic discrimination, hate crimes etc. these aren't the people who are going to help you do it, they're actively throwing fuel into the flame.

What's needed is a sustained, system approach to end both the discrimination that minorities face in their personal and professional lives throughout the country and in every industry. Not a minutiae of bad faith examples of individual racism. I don't mind the minutiae when it comes to the leadership - people in positions of power should face harsh consequences for wrongdoing, but that's not going to dent antisemitism generally or in labour. I'd be perfectly happy if labour became the only place in the UK without any antisemitism, but that's just impossible when the people trying to point it out are acting in such obviously bad faith, and at the expense of the antisemitism in the UK generally.

It also doesn't help how horrifically stupid, and at times antisemitic, the criticism of labours problems are. See the reaction to Jewdas and the attempts to call the lefts relationship with people like Noam Chomsky antisemitic. It's genuinely absurd.