Here we go again.................who ?
Is Corbyn going to be the leader of the Labour Party until the end of time? When he's popped his clogs will he be stuffed and mounted?
Jeremy Corbyn - Not Not Labour Party(?), not a Communist (BBC)
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Is Corbyn going to be the leader of the Labour Party until the end of time? When he's popped his clogs will he be stuffed and mounted?
Give us a name.
So you honestly think nobody could do better than Corbyn has done?
No, I think you're claiming anyone can but refuse to give a single example.
Jesus that's terrifying... Basically saying to pharmaceutical companies "you may as well close your R&D departments, since the government can come in and steal the technology that's cost years and billions in investment and sell it for peanuts".
If enacted this would cripple UK research into preventative health. Preventing profit on medicine prevents any incentive to find new cures.
If this is the case then it's just laughable. As if the government can manufacture and distribute at a more competitive cost than companies that literally go out of business if they aren't competitive.
Here we go again.................who ?
I love the idea that the only thing stopping Labour from walking the next election is apparently removing Corbyn and replacing him with someone like Tom Watson or Keir Starmer.
https://www.independent.co.uk/news/...l-justice-now-stop-aids-johnson-a8011716.html
NHS pays pharmaceutical companies millions for drugs developed with taxpayers’ money
Treatments for cancer, arthritis and MS among drugs that cost cash-strapped NHS more than £1bn last year, in what has been branded a ‘rip-off’ of British public
NHS pays pharmaceutical companies millions for drugs developed with taxpayers’ money
Treatments for cancer, arthritis and MS among drugs that cost cash-strapped NHS more than £1bn last year, in what has been branded a ‘rip-off’ of British public
Perhaps 'anyone' was a bit of a stretch, most of the front bench would probably do worse.
I think Starmer could do a decent job, and he would command much more respect from the public than Corbyn does. Not enough to win an election I suspect.
I think the problem Labour has going forward is the NEC has been filled with Corbyn supporters, and so any future attempts to try and bring the party back towards the centre ground and in turn make Labour electable is extremely difficult.
Wow steady on there, your actually naming some names.
But yeah its fantasy football but for politics. Not worth paying any attention to.
In truth I think someone like Starmer with a raft of moderate policies and a clear plan on Brexit would be polling at 40%+ rather than low twenties.
Thank you. It's an absolute nightmare trying to get an actual answer of of the 'no jeremys' club on this, so I appreciate that you've given one.
To both of you - what's your clear plan on brexit that you would suggest someone like Starmer should adopt and who do you think is going to knock on doors for Starmer during an election campaign?
His policy would be very simple: the day after his majority he would put the current withdrawal agreement against remain in a second referendum and would campaign to remain.
Why would a centrist remainer choose this over the Lib Dems?
Because I don't believe in revoking A50 without putting it back to the public first.
You and a handful of other political nerds (we're all political nerds here, obviously, we're talking about politics on a football forum).
Do you think this is a commonly held view? I really don't. I think the centrist remain vote wants to revoke without a vote. That's what people I know are saying. That's what Swinson seems to think.
Because it's more democratic? Also because they're moderate Labour voters at heart so if they have the choice of two similar Brexit policies, with their traditional voting home being one of them they will naturally go with that one (particularly in tandem with an economically literate centre left policy agenda)
I agree it is more democratic but I don't think it's more popular.
Your second point I think has weight. I just don't think its gains compare to the advantage of having a movement like Momentum excitedly on your side. As I say, doors need to be knocked. The Lib Dems polled high in 2010 and then actually went down in seats, because no one turned out for them. Labour polled low in 2017 but people did turn out, because they had an army of activists getting people out.
I think the reason for he seat change in 2017 was down to the incompetence of Theresa May rather than some grass roots door knocking movement. I think the effect of that is less than is made out.
An incompetent sitting government with a moderate opposition and a leader who is charismatic is enough for a majority. See Cameron and Blair before him.
Apologies for being pedantic but Cameron failed to win a majority, when he campaigned in opposition. And more importantly Starmer has clearly not shown any of the 'charisma' of Cameron and Blair. Nick Clegg showed it but, again, people didn't actually vote for him.
I think you are broadly right but I think there's no chance this current Labour party would get behind a moderate leader, at least not until they are desperate enough for power again to accept their power being clipped.
I think you're hoping for something that won't happen here. There isn't an amount of time that will make climate change less of an issue so there isn't an amount of time that will lead to Labour activists supporting a moderate.
I think this should do it...
1) Declare pro Remain (which he has)
2) Campaign for 2nd Referendum of May's Deal vs Remain (not months of re-negotiations on unicorns)
3) Support for Remain in the Referendum (which he will)
That's probably as pro-Remain as you can be without going full-Lib Dem, who's Cancel Brexit stance is kinda free-riding on the fact they have 0 chance of getting overall majority.
Finally, I think no party is likely to get an overall majority majority in the upcoming GE. I believe the next government will probably need to be a coalition government. I think Starmer's generally more moderate approach, along with the fact that he's not been tarnished with the anti-Semitism allegations, would see SNP and Lib Dems prefer him vastly over Johnson. And I mean both the party leaders as well as their electorate. Therefore more likely to end-up with a Labour govt than under Corbyn.
I agree on the first part. I don't see them becoming more moderate any time soon though. The Momentum folks despise the New Labour legacy and it's centrist politics.
EDIT: And to be fair, I don't hold it against leftists for wanting to have a party they can call home. Part of the problem with FPTP is that it allows for limited parties. If we had proportional representation, there would probably be space for a Social Democratic/Third Way party to satisfy those who want something more centre-left than full lefty.
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As I say, yeah, cause centrist politics is accepting catastrophic climate change. It's naive to think young left wing people will support that.
I think people are just throwing out Starmer because he's recently said he'd campaign remain. I'm not sure you'd be satisfied with him at all as his policies align with Corbyn on public/private. It was him that came up with the 6 tests that have guided the unicorn you all bemoan.
Probably a safer pair of hands in the public view initially until the papers go after him like the rest
Probably a safer pair of hands in the public view initially until the papers go after him like the rest
But it's not though. Have a read (when you have time).
https://www.theguardian.com/politic...radical-agenda-for-tackling-climate-emergency
https://www.libdems.org.uk/environment
I don't think it's as aggressive as Corbyn's new 0-carbon footprint by 2030 admittedly, put it's certainly not accepting of the situation. Generally centrist voters are quite environmentally aware.
Lib Dems don't keep their promises. Like two posts up you just explained to me that you think their brexit stance is based on the fact they know they can't win. It is meaningless.
Perhaps, that's quite possible.
Yeah this is terrifying. Without a profit motive no one is going to want to stop people from dying.
Honest question here: why have Labour not gone remain anyway? Now we know it doesn't really matter to the likes the good people of the caf, because of the referendum pledge, but for those that believe the papers what possible good does it hold to continue to appear on that particular fence?
The way I see it, and I'm happy to be proven wrong here, is that the referendum pledge has already firmly fecked them with a large amount of their leave voters already. It's only my personal experience, and it sucks I know so many leave voters, but I don't know any who are voting labour now. And considering the area I'm from, that's a surprise even to me.
So why not go after the remain ones? If we are as sensible as we like to think we are, surely the referendum and capaign for remain is enough to fight off the nonsense revoke shit from the libs? At the same time, it doesn't affect the other Labour policies either, nipping those one policy jibes in the bud.
I just don't understand the thinking here. You've already pissed off the leave voters, why piss off the remain ones and risk losing them?
Sad, but very true.
Based on? Before you go on about the tuition fees, the Tories were in power not Lib Dems.
And also parties change. It'd be like me saying the Labour are the party of war-mongers based on the war in Iraq.
Well, that's how I see saw it. It was emphatically approved by members at conference as well though. That doesn't mean they wouldn't do it in the very unlikely event they won, just that it was made form position of relative safety to get more votes and attract remainers. It's kinda weird to use something that hasn't come to pass as proof that they wouldn't keep their promises.
It's this. It's that a large amount is not a large enough amount to to mean all leave voters are lost and they can't win constituencies with the ones that will still vote Labour.
I know leave voters who will vote Labour. I still don't think they will win my seat which they normally win regularly.
What have you seen that suggests the Lib Dems have changed? Swinson appears to be fonder of Tories than Clegg. She's welcoming them in to her party.
Of course they wouldn't do it. No one would.
I’m being sarcastic.
And if you take a moment to think, the profit motive isn’t at all effective with regards to health...
Say you are running a pharmaceutical co.
Do you invest in a) a one time cure or b) a palliative treatment upon which the patient will depend for the rest of their lives?
Isn't that a guessing game though? Obviously I can only speak from personal experience, and I've been so surprised by how most I know have voted (and constantly told as many as I can you should vote leave and still vote labour in a futile bid to show eho is actually getting the power), but I can't name a single person who is now voting labour who wants brexit.
It's a bubble, for sure, but seeing the comments from leave voters and the willingness to jump to BJ's side (and seem to forget the party he stands for), I just don't trust the polls on that one. I honestly think it's a bit odd to rely on them when you can push harder for the remain votes.
Maybe I'm wrong on it, good if I am actually. I just don't really get why they wouldn't they to get as many floating remain voters as possible. They are going to lose a fair chunk of leave voters at the next GE, surely that's a given?
A bit but it's not baseless. These people do exist. Whether they'll actually vote for Labour or stay at home cause they can't bring themselves to vote Tory, remains to be seen.
Yeah I picked up on that mate.On a serious note, I still wonder how this isn't just a soundbite. I like the idea, but how the hell would they pull it off?