Jeremy Corbyn - Not Not Labour Party(?), not a Communist (BBC)

Damien said:
The Sun and Daily Mail wouldn't even entertain having a story/comment piece from a Labour MP in the first place would they?
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Been a couple who have spewed shite for The Sun. I know Gloria de Piero wrote a piece asking people to join Labour to vote against Corbyn in the last leadership election, citing it's large readership base. Then within a couple of months was shocked and outraged that the same paper she rushed to, would print Kelvin MacKenzie's claims that it was inappropriate for Channel 4 News to allow a Muslim journalist to present coverage of the Nice truck attack. John Mann, Michael Dugher, Frank Field, Jess Phillips and Ian Austin have also appeared in the rag in the last 18 months or so.
 
Dobba said:
Been a couple who have spewed shite for The Sun. I know Gloria de Piero wrote a piece asking people to join Labour to vote against Corbyn in the last leadership election, citing it's large readership base. Then within a couple of months was shocked and outraged that the same paper she rushed to, would print Kelvin MacKenzie's claims that it was inappropriate for Channel 4 News to allow a Muslim journalist to present coverage of the Nice truck attack. John Mann, Michael Dugher, Frank Field, Jess Phillips and Ian Austin have also appeared in the rag in the last 18 months or so.
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Thanks. I don't read either for my own sanity. Guessing the pieces would be pro-Brexit/anti-Corbyn on the whole anyway? Which would suit the papers.
 
@PedroMendez
Do you not agree that there is serious misinformation among voters, and all of it in one political direction?

- Benefit fraud: the public think that £24 of every £100 of benefits is fraudulently claimed. Official estimates are that just 70 pence in every £100 is fraudulent - so the public conception is out by a factor of 34.

- Immigration: some 31 per cent of the population is thought to consist of recent immigrants, when the figure is actually 13 per cent. Even including illegal immigrants, the figure is only about 15 per cent. On the issue of ethnicity, black and Asian people are thought to make up 30 per cent of the population, when the figure is closer to 11 per cent.

- Crime: some 58 per cent of people do not believe crime is falling, when the Crime Survey for England and Wales shows that incidents of crime were 19 per cent lower in 2012 than in 2006/07 and 53 per cent lower than in 1995. Some 51 per cent think violent crime is rising, when it has fallen from almost 2.5 million incidents in 2006/07 to under 2 million in 2012.

- Teen pregnancy is thought to be 25 times higher than the official estimates: 15 per cent of of girls under 16 are thought to become pregnant every year, when official figures say the amount is closer to 0.6 per cent.

Among the other surprising figures are that 26 per cent of people think foreign aid is in the top three items the Government spends money on (it actually makes up just 1.1 per cent of expenditure), and that 29 per cent of people think more is spent on Jobseekers' Allowance than pensions.

In fact we spend 15 times more on pensions - £4.9 billion on JSA vs £74.2 billion on pensions.
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How do you think these impressions come about?
 
berbatrick said:
@PedroMendez
Do you not agree that there is serious misinformation among voters, and all of it in one political direction?
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Is it all in one direction

Don't similar questions also show that people continually underestimate what % of total tax take comes from higher rate payers and that illusive top 1% of earners

Similarly don't people often underestimate the national deficit ... and the national debt
 
berbatrick said:
@PedroMendez
Do you not agree that there is serious misinformation among voters, and all of it in one political direction?



How do you think these impressions come about?
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Many years of brainwashing. There was a program on TV a few years ago putting people straight on some of these figures. These people bizarrely said they wouldn't change their opinions, that it was the way they felt. Sometimes, I think there's no hop for this country.
 
Minimalist said:
Labour don't seem to have anyone. I mean it's not just leaders, their strategy all over is shite but a good leader would help.

Unless Blair comes back from the grave or the rejected Dave Milliband returns I think we'd better buckle down for a fair few years (with Tory rule).

Corbyn just comes across as senile at this point.
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What, specifically, is shite about Labour's strategy?

Which policies would you rule out as being shite?

Which policies that the Tories have pursued or promised are better?

I think if someone is emphatically elected leader by a democratic party (twice) we just have to accept that he is the rightful leader and get on with things. It seems we will have to agree to disagree on this.

Blair? feck off! Milliband? Similar.

Corbyn seems far from senile to me - definitely a lot less senile than some posters on here, tbh.
 
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berbatrick said:
@PedroMendez
Do you not agree that there is serious misinformation among voters, and all of it in one political direction?



How do you think these impressions come about?
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Because people have different priorities and don’t really care about politics. The only UK newspaper that I frequently read is the guardian, but they struggle to publish a single article about British/European politics that isn’t biased as feck. It is not a one-way street. Especially in times of social media.

Corbyn got hard done by the media. But that’s only a part of the story. Why is the centrist wing of his own party hating him? Why don’t Labour voters like him? Just because the Sun writes nonsense? Come on. There are things that are not his fault. Labour just got crushed by the referendum result and are now in a very awkward position. They can’t stand up for any recognizable position. That is not Corbyn’s fault, but his incompetence to lead a major party (=> a party with different wings) amplified this. I admire that he doesn’t seem to care how bad many of his actions look. More politicians should follow suit and stand up for their ideals. Yet the problem is, that many of his decisions are just genuinely bad. He promotes weird people, makes ambiguous statements and can’t compromise at all. Yes, even after winning the leadership elections, he has to take into account, that a significant part of the party holds other views. He should have gone full out populist. That seems to be his only chance to win over voters. Occasionally he still gives these speeches, but on a national level he seems to freeze.

But that aside, much of his rhetoric and many of his ideas simply don’t resonate with voters. The working class isn’t necessarily progressive when it comes to societal issues and centrist voters might be put off by his economic policies. They are not put off, because they misunderstand his arguments, but because they disagree with them. Additionally - that’s something I can’t repeat often enough – the average voter doesn’t like high-minded ideologues. Especially not when they are patronizing and arrogant.
 
sun_tzu said:
Is it all in one direction

Don't similar questions also show that people continually underestimate what % of total tax take comes from higher rate payers and that illusive top 1% of earners

Similarly don't people often underestimate the national deficit ... and the national debt
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A very small %age of the population would get questions about Gordon Brown's performance as Chancellor right - like hugely reducing both the deficit and debt prior to the financial collapse.
 
PedroMendez said:
Because people have different priorities and don’t really care about politics. The only UK newspaper that I frequently read is the guardian, but they struggle to publish a single article about British/European politics that isn’t biased as feck. It is not a one-way street. Especially in times of social media.

Corbyn got hard done by the media. But that’s only a part of the story. Why is the centrist wing of his own party hating him? Why don’t Labour voters like him? Just because the Sun writes nonsense? Come on. There are things that are not his fault. Labour just got crushed by the referendum result and are now in a very awkward position. They can’t stand up for any recognizable position. That is not Corbyn’s fault, but his incompetence to lead a major party (=> a party with different wings) amplified this. I admire that he doesn’t seem to care how bad many of his actions look. More politicians should follow suit and stand up for their ideals. Yet the problem is, that many of his decisions are just genuinely bad. He promotes weird people, makes ambiguous statements and can’t compromise at all. Yes, even after winning the leadership elections, he has to take into account, that a significant part of the party holds other views. He should have gone full out populist. That seems to be his only chance to win over voters. Occasionally he still gives these speeches, but on a national level he seems to freeze.

But that aside, much of his rhetoric and many of his ideas simply don’t resonate with voters. The working class isn’t necessarily progressive when it comes to societal issues and centrist voters might be put off by his economic policies. They are not put off, because they misunderstand his arguments, but because they disagree with them. Additionally - that’s something I can’t repeat often enough – the average voter doesn’t like high-minded ideologues. Especially not when they are patronizing and arrogant.
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It might not be appropriate but, when it comes to why Corbyn seems unable to get his message out, I am reminded of that scene in Life of Brian when they can't make out what's being said at the sermon on the mount and start going on about blessed be the cheesemakers etc.. The mainstream media seems to intentionally create a distorted view.

 
Cheesy said:
I think it's quite mixed. Initially I felt a fair bit of sympathy for Corbyn - a lot of the centrists in the Labour party had it in for him from the start, and the media have often tried to portray him as some batshit socialist when he's probably more of a democratic socialist who really isn't that out there in regards to what he'd do economically etc.

But he's not done himself any favours. McDonnell as Shadow Chancellor. Diane Abbott in important positions at all. The weird thing with the train where he tried to pretend there were no empty seats when there was. Sending Abbott to an interview without her actually having any idea of the figures she was trying to defend. Shite like that just gives his opponents more and more ammo.

And while I have sympathy for him, and for some of his supporters, because I ultimately agree with a large part of their agenda and sympathise with their case, there comes a point when they need to look inwards and say that, yeah, for all the infighting, and for all the press bias...he's been a bit shit, has made some shit choices, and really hasn't been anywhere near as successful as he was supposed to be.

And while it may be shite for them to have to acknowledge failure, and to potentially have to concede power back to the centre-ground, they should also realise that the electorates problems are not tailored to what happens to the Labour party - yeah, it might be crap if other people are trying to oust you from power and undermine you, but it's ultimately inconsequential to the country as a whole. If Corbyn can't win, or can't prevent a massive, massive Tory majority...then why should I care what's happened within the party? All it ultimately means is a gigantic win for the Tories.
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There's a few big own goals there for sure, but it's nothing compared to other leaders who have received far better treatment despite a having a far worse record. It just doesn't seem fair and there's going to be a lot of bitterness within the Labour party post election (and post Corbyn).
 
Minimalist said:
Labour don't seem to have anyone. I mean it's not just leaders, their strategy all over is shite but a good leader would help.

Unless Blair comes back from the grave or the rejected Dave Milliband returns I think we'd better buckle down for a fair few years (with Tory rule).

Corbyn just comes across as senile at this point.
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Tony Blair and David Miliband :lol: Do you seriously see either of them as credible choices?
 
DenisIrwin said:
A very small %age of the population would get questions about Gordon Brown's performance as Chancellor right - like hugely reducing both the deficit and debt prior to the financial collapse.
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True... more would probably recall him saying he had ended boom and bust and selling off tons of gold at low prices
But yes in general the engagement of the general public in day to day politics is incredibly low... it's why personality and particularly presentation and how leaders come over on tv is so important... it's why blair won a landslide and Corbyn will deliver the worst result since ww2
 
sun_tzu said:
True... more would probably recall him saying he had ended boom and bust and selling off tons of gold at low prices
But yes in general the engagement of the general public in day to day politics is incredibly low... it's why personality and particularly presentation and how leaders come over on tv is so important... it's why blair won a landslide and Corbyn will deliver the worst result since ww2
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I'd take Corbyn over a reality TV personality every single time.
 
sun_tzu said:
Yeah but that's not how general elections work is it... and he is going to get a pasting ... the only real question is will his incompetence take the Labour party down with him
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If he - I mean we - get a pasting it will be a tragedy for all of us.
 
fishfingers15 said:
Your Hilary Clinton hate is weird.
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I hope you're not suggesting I should support the party above the person because the alternative is so unspeakably awful are you? You'd sound like one of those Corbynistas if you do that.
sun_tzu said:
The tradegy is going into an election with a leader generally considered unelectable.
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This is very true. Labour could be going into this election with Owen Smith and his 29 inch inside leg in charge. What a missed opportunity.
 
Dobba said:
I hope you're not suggesting I should support the party above the person because the alternative is so unspeakably awful are you? You'd sound like one of those Corbynistas if you do that.

This is very true. Labour could be going into this election with Owen Smith and his 29 inch inside leg in charge. What a missed opportunity.
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Same Corbynistas who weren't opposed to a rebel vote because Sanders didn't get the nomination. Depends on the situation I suppose.
 
Dobba said:
This is very true. Labour could be going into this election with Owen Smith and his 29 inch inside leg in charge. What a missed opportunity.
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He would still do better than Corbyn.. .

But jarvis... Lewis... Starmer and perhaps they might have a chance of winning... let's be honest they couldn't possibly do worse that they are about to
 
fishfingers15 said:
Same Corbynistas who weren't opposed to a rebel vote because Sanders didn't get the nomination. Depends on the situation I suppose.
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Luckily the Hilary movement had absolutely nothing to say about people who didn't vote or spent their time having digs at Clinton for personal flaws and ignoring what the alternative was. Thankfully that hasn't been a narrative at all since November, or they'd look like absolute fecking hypocrites by doing the very thing they'd previously complained about across the pond.
sun_tzu said:
He would still do better than Corbyn...

But jarvis... Lewis... Starmer and perhaps they might have a chance of winning... let's be honest they couldn't possibly do worse that they are about to
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Of course they'd be absolutely electable, particularly Smith. If only that pesky Corbyn would stand down so they'd have a chance of proving that they're electable.
 
DenisIrwin said:
...by the right wing press and BiasedBC.
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And looking at the polls the general electorate... You know those people the corbynistas seem to think you should patronise / call thick instead of engaging with their many concerns regarding the numpty in charge of the Labour party.

I'm fully expecting Corbyn & abbot to go full on Donald trump fake news to deflect the fact they are incompetent fekwhits when they get smashed in the election
 
sun_tzu said:
And looking at the polls the general electorate... You know those people the corbynistas seem to think you should patronise / call thick instead of engaging with their many concerns regarding the numpty in charge of the Labour party.

I'm fully expecting Corbyn & abbot to go full on Donald trump fake news to deflect the fact they are incompetent fekwhits when they get smashed in the election
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McDonnell uses similar tactics to the Alt-right when dealing with the media by attacking their credibility early on in the interview. He did on Radio 4 last week asking them 'why are you using a Tory lie as a headline, when you know it is a lie' or something to that effect. The presenter just said 'well now it's your turn reply, thats how it works'.
 
Dobba said:
Luckily the Hilary movement had absolutely nothing to say about people who didn't vote or spent their time having digs at Clinton for personal flaws and ignoring what the alternative was. Thankfully that hasn't been a narrative at all since November, or they'd look like absolute fecking hypocrites by doing the very thing they'd previously complained about across the pond.

Of course they'd be absolutely electable, particularly Smith. If only that pesky Corbyn would stand down so they'd have a chance of proving that they're electable.
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So it all comes down to complaining then? We all know that is not a problem with Corbynistas
 
fishfingers15 said:
So it all comes down to complaining then? We all know that is not a problem with Corbynistas
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I'm sure I once heard something about practising and preaching, but I can't quite put the phrase together.

Thankfully there isn't another election taking place at the moment where those same people have suggested not backing the alternative means you support say... a fascist?
 
Dobba said:
I'm sure I once heard something about practising and preaching, but I can't quite put the phrase together.

Thankfully there isn't another election taking place at the moment where those same people have suggested not backing the alternative means you support say... a fascist?
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Possibly nailed down Labour's problems.
 
I see Lib Dem ads at the bottom of my screen.
My money being put to good use.
 
Classical Mechanic said:
McDonnell uses similar tactics to the Alt-right when dealing with the media by attacking their credibility early on in the interview. He did on Radio 4 last week asking them 'why are you using a Tory lie as a headline, when you know it is a lie' or something to that effect. The presenter just said 'well now it's your turn reply, thats how it works'.
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Iirc, that was when they had read out a Tory press release as news.
 
sun_tzu said:
And looking at the polls the general electorate... You know those people the corbynistas seem to think you should patronise / call thick instead of engaging with their many concerns regarding the numpty in charge of the Labour party.

I'm fully expecting Corbyn & abbot to go full on Donald trump fake news to deflect the fact they are incompetent fekwhits when they get smashed in the election
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The vast majority ought really to have more concerns about the Tory agenda than an honest man that genuinely has their best interests at heart. A win for Labour is in the interests of the majority. It's highly frustrating that people can't see that. I believe a massive reason for that is the right wing press dominance in their political views, and the fact that they trust the BBC so blindly - when so many of their political correspondents don't even try to hide their Tory roots/leanings anymore.
 
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Classical Mechanic said:
Is that wrong in an election campaign? It was 'The Tories claim' or something to that effect wasn't it?
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“In common parlance people would call these, what the Tories have published today, lies, absolute lies. I am shocked the BBC has just taken a Conservative press release and has repeated it all morning,” he said, referring to their criticism that Labour’s spending plans have an uncosted £45bn black hole.

“You’re the BBC, you have to have some sort of analysis before you put something on air.”
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PedroMendez said:
Because people have different priorities and don’t really care about politics. The only UK newspaper that I frequently read is the guardian, but they struggle to publish a single article about British/European politics that isn’t biased as feck. It is not a one-way street. Especially in times of social media.

Corbyn got hard done by the media. But that’s only a part of the story. Why is the centrist wing of his own party hating him? Why don’t Labour voters like him? Just because the Sun writes nonsense? Come on. There are things that are not his fault. Labour just got crushed by the referendum result and are now in a very awkward position. They can’t stand up for any recognizable position. That is not Corbyn’s fault, but his incompetence to lead a major party (=> a party with different wings) amplified this. I admire that he doesn’t seem to care how bad many of his actions look. More politicians should follow suit and stand up for their ideals. Yet the problem is, that many of his decisions are just genuinely bad. He promotes weird people, makes ambiguous statements and can’t compromise at all. Yes, even after winning the leadership elections, he has to take into account, that a significant part of the party holds other views. He should have gone full out populist. That seems to be his only chance to win over voters. Occasionally he still gives these speeches, but on a national level he seems to freeze.

But that aside, much of his rhetoric and many of his ideas simply don’t resonate with voters. The working class isn’t necessarily progressive when it comes to societal issues and centrist voters might be put off by his economic policies. They are not put off, because they misunderstand his arguments, but because they disagree with them. Additionally - that’s something I can’t repeat often enough – the average voter doesn’t like high-minded ideologues. Especially not when they are patronizing and arrogant.
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Well, I agree there is disinterst in politics (which seems to be growing), and, again, the direction of disinterest (measured crudely by voting %age) benefits the right.
Do I think Corbyn would be PM without a biased media? No, probably not.
But I don't think Brexit could have happened without some of the misconceptions about migration (a similar survey in 2016 showed wild overestimation of the number of EU, no-EU migrants, and Muslim numbers). Basically I do think that without what seems to me a systematic campaign run by the popular press, the political climate would have been vastly different (and maybe you would have Blair-style polished "electables" running on the left of Labour because that's where the votes are).

Interestingly, at least in the US, there is another level of this: representatives believe their districts are far more conservative than the reality: http://www.vanderbilt.edu/csdi/miller-stokes/08_MillerStokes_BroockmanSkovron.pdf
 
sun_tzu said:
Really... as an ex member and doner he (and momentum) seem more concerned about fighting the centrist element of the party... of blairite scum as they prefer to call us

As for honest that ram packed train debacle springs to mind
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I'm sure he would prefer there was no infighting. He's the democratically elected socialist leader of a democratic socialist party. End of.
 
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