Jeremy Corbyn - Not Not Labour Party(?), not a Communist (BBC)

[Ekkie Thump]

Oh yeah, now you said that it must have been Corbyn who was PM all those years and lead all those bills through Parliament.

Being PM for a decade and is less of an achievement than being a backbench MP because someone said 'Iraq'. Got it.

They were notable ommissions to the list of achievements you were attributing to Blair.

 

[Oscie]

Of course. I'm not going to deny the Blair governments implemented a lot of stuff I'd agree with. But they also pretty much accepted Thatcher's economic doctrine tax-wise, maintaining fairly low rates and completing the deregulation of the banks, while introducing PFI and handling Iraq catastrophically. All-in-all they achieved a lot, yes, but they also fundamentally alienated a lot of their core base while not really winning a new core base - a lot of the right-wingers who were more likely to vote for New Labour quickly shifted back in 2010 and 2015, meaning the party was left with a fairly alienated and disillusioned core base that hadn't been listened to and that were crying out for someone like Corbyn. Most reasonable lefties can admit Blair achieved plenty of good - the criticism leveled at him is he didn't do enough, and considering the state the Tories were in during the 90s he'd have won an election comfortably if he'd been a little bit more to the left, as evidenced by the fact Smith was doing fairly well polling-wise until his death.

Smith and Blair were up against a better calibre of government than the current Labour leadership is. I'm just bored of the excuses. It's the media, it's the Blairites, it's the Jews, it's a smear. When all's said and done if the official opposition party changed it's name to the Jimmy Savile Was Innocent Party, you'd have to ask serious questions as to why they kept on letting the government off the hook. The gap between this government vs any opposition of the last 30 years would be 20 points, at least.

As we're about to be ripped from the EU in to satisfy the racists and nutcases on the right, it historically has never been a worse time for the 'I'm fine if we don't win a long as ideologically we're moving in a direction I'm pleased with' experiment with the Labour party.

 

[Oscie]

They were notable ommissions to the list of achievements you were attributing to Blair.

I wasn't attributing achievements, I was stating some of the things he did. I even acknowledged that people mightn't like what he did - but he did it. Being PM for 10 years doesn't mean you've achieved less than someone who hasn't on the basis that some people could name things he did they didn't like. But I felt that was a completely redundant thing to have to point out.

Doing things vs talking about things.

I hated virtually everything Thatcher did, doesn't mean I can't acknowledge the fact she did them and achieved more than someone who sat on the backbenches opposing what she was doing to little effect. The person who does X is always winning a 'style over substance' context with the person who voices his opinion on Y.

 

[oates]

Smith and Blair were up against a better calibre of government than the current Labour leadership is. I'm just bored of the excuses. It's the media, it's the Blairites, it's the Jews, it's a smear. When all's said and done if the official opposition party changed it's name to the Jimmy Savile Was Innocent Party, you'd have to ask serious questions as to why they kept on letting the government off the hook. The gap between this government vs any opposition of the last 30 years would be 20 points, at least.

As we're about to be ripped from the EU in to satisfy the racists and nutcases on the right, it historically has never been a worse time for the 'I'm fine if we don't win a long as ideologically we're moving in a direction I'm pleased with' experiment with the Labour party.

Smith dies, probably the best PM that never was. Blair lied, he lied and he lied. And then he lied some more, endlessly. But he's much better than Corbyn. But Blair stepped down and Brown lost to this incredible Tory Party led by Cameron who leads the country eventually into Brexit but not out of it. But you want Blair back?

 

[Cheesy]

Smith and Blair were up against a better calibre of government than the current Labour leadership is. I'm just bored of the excuses. It's the media, it's the Blairites, it's the Jews, it's a smear. When all's said and done if the official opposition party changed it's name to the Jimmy Savile Was Innocent Party, you'd have to ask serious questions as to why they kept on letting the government off the hook. The gap between this government vs any opposition of the last 30 years would be 20 points, at least.

As we're about to be ripped from the EU in to satisfy the racists and nutcases on the right, it historically has never been a worse time for the 'I'm fine if we don't win a long as ideologically we're moving in a direction I'm pleased with' experiment with the Labour party.

Okay. But we've already established that Labour's typical brand of centrism isn't particularly popular right now and is unlikely to win an election, considering there are no particularly outstanding or impressive leadership candidates to promote it, and considering Labour outright rejecting a Brexit which involves ending freedom of movement would massively dent their popularity with sects of the party who voted for Brexit. This only really works if the political environment present is one in which the country is crying out for a centrist option. Right now they aren't. Significant portions of the public are tired after being ignored by various governments for years in the face of growing economic equality, and a slight increase in public investment while not really doing anything substantial to address those inequalities isn't going to change that. Corbyn may not be the man to regain power, granted - but a shift back to the centre isn't going to help.

 

[Sweet Square]

Oh yeah, now you said that it must have been Corbyn who was PM all those years and lead all those bills through Parliament.

Being PM for a decade and is less of an achievement than being a backbench MP because someone said 'Iraq'. Got it.

Iraq(Blair foreign policy up until then had being very good)and the deregulation of the banks made any achievements by New Labour worthless.

 

[Oscie]

Iraq(Blair foreign policy up until then had being very good)and the deregulation of the banks made any achievements by New Labour worthless.

Name a Corbyn achievement.

One.

Thanks.

The left's obsession with Blair means so many of you would rather a Tory government than an 'impure' Labour one. Smith and Blair were actually far closely aligned than Smith and Corbyn. He would have been hated by the left too had he lived and went on to win. The hard left resent anyone who disrupts their ideal which seems to be perpetual Tory rule so they can complain about it. Only have to look at issues Wilson and Callaghan had with the hard left to know that this isn't an issue unique to Blair. Anyone who wins and is successful for Labour, the left resist.

They only laud Attlee because we're so many decades removed now that they can pretend he was one of theirs. Transplant Attlee into the modern party and the people who take their 'B-LIAR' placard with them wherever they go in case an emergency protest breaks out would have him top of their deselection list.

Blair and Iraq are convenient scapegoats to the fact that there's a long history of the left of the party hating whoever it is who delivers government for them. Smith may not have had Iraq but nor did Callaghan or Wilson and their battles with the same element of the party Corbyn supporters come from isn't expunged from history. Smith would have gone same way. Which is what always makes me laugh when people from the left cite Smith favourable as a 'what if'. The man who, if anything, was the forerunner to the 'neo-liberalism' Blair and Brown (to a lesser extent) heralded. But the poor bastard died so lets pretend the fact he was one of the architects to move Labour away from the left and towards the centre, didn't happen. And let's ignore the fact one of his protegees became one of the most important figures in the New Labour movement.

 

[oates]

Oh yes, I remember the good old days of people telling us that Labour would be wiped out at the Polling Booths. And The Conservatives needed a coalition with some Northern Irish people they shared no ideology with but gave them a bung instead.

 

[Sweet Square]

The left's obsession with Blair means so many of you would rather a Tory government than an 'impure' Labour one. Smith and Blair were actually far closely aligned than Smith and Corbyn. He would have been hated by the left too had he lived and went on to win. The hard left resent anyone who disrupts their ideal which seems to be perpetual Tory rule so they can complain about it. Only have to look at issues Wilson and Callaghan had with the hard left to know that this isn't an issue unique to Blair. Anyone who wins and is successful for Labour, the left resist.

They only laud Attlee because we're so many decades removed now that they can pretend he was one of theirs. Transplant Attlee into the modern party and the people who take their 'B-LIAR' placard with them wherever they go in case an emergency protest breaks out would have him top of their deselection list.

Blair and Iraq are convenient scapegoats to the fact that there's a long history of the left of the party hating whoever it is who delivers government for them. Smith may not have had Iraq but nor did Callaghan or Wilson and their battles with the same element of the party Corbyn supporters come from isn't expunged from history. Smith would have gone same way. Which is what always makes me laugh when people from the left cite Smith favourable as a 'what if'. The man who, if anything, was the forerunner to the 'neo-liberalism' Blair and Brown (to a lesser extent) heralded.

Oh my god you actual are Tony Blair aren't you.

 

[nickm]

Well that's the thing, in that I don't see any context to this other then he'd meet or talk with these organisations as a politician. I don't know about you but I was talking about so called 'friends' but all of us can increase that exponentially when we talk about associates. My political views are to the left and yet as a businessman I'm a member of the CBI and so many other members have diametrically opposed views to me and we might often clash but how do you hope to occasionally change an opinion if not to be a part of something.

He wasn’t just meeting organisations as a politician, he was often meeting with violent organisations whose aims he shared. Eg the Sinn Fein / IRA stuff from the 80s... he shared their goal of a United ireland. He wasn’t meeting all sides as any honest broker would, or even thr peaceful advocates of his position. The SDLP, who at the time were the peaceful advocates of a United ireland, are on record as saying Corbyn never spoke to them and that they regarded him as taking the side of Sinn Fein.

 

[oates]

The left's obsession with Blair means so many of you would rather a Tory government than an 'impure' Labour one. Smith and Blair were actually far closely aligned than Smith and Corbyn.

What on earth are you talking about? Blair hated the direction Smith as leader wanted to take Labour into the next GE. The only thing Blair was aligned to was John Smith's health where he predicted Smith's early death.

Sorry but you've been reduced to total fabrication now.

 

[Oscie]

Oh my god you actual are Tony Blair aren't you.

Did you ever see the episode of the Simpsons where Lisa says she's going to marry a carrot to people who ask 'Are you going to marry a carrot?'

 

[oates]

He wasn’t just meeting organisations as a politician, he was often meeting with violent organisations whose aims he shared. Eg the Sinn Fein / IRA stuff from the 80s... he shared their goal of a United ireland. He wasn’t meeting all sides as any honest broker would, or even thr peaceful advocates of his position. The SDLP, who at the time were the peaceful advocates of a United ireland, are on record as saying Corbyn never spoke to them and that they regarded him as taking the side of Sinn Fein.

I honestly don't think you've taken in anything I've said. Corbyn will talk to anyone. As an MP he had every right to talk to who he wanted to, it is true he shared some values and ideology with Sinn Fein but he wasn't negotiating Great Britain away. What Corbyn does is talk, he listens.

 

[Oscie]

Smith was much, much more closely aligned politically to Blair than Corbyn. It's utter bollocks to pretend otherwise. He might not have been as far to the right of the party as Blair but he was in that general direction. He was responsible for many of the changes that allowed new Labour to be born, both as leader and previously working under Kinnock.

Absurd to somehow claim him as the lost left-wing hope. He was a modernising moderate, far closely aligned with what became of the Labour party post his death than the Labour leadership now. The only reason people play the Smith card is because the poor git croaked it and over the years he's been incorrectly painted as something other than what he was, which was a centrist, moderniser. Not as right-wing as Blair but his side of the party have a more realistic claim to his legacy than anyone else.

Kinnock did the ground work for the reforms with Smith in his team, Smith carried it on with Blair and Brown in his team, Blair carried it on further and reaped the rewards. The narrative isn't 'Kinnock was replaced by a traditional leftist then Tory Blair took over and ruined the party forever. Romantic, maybe. But that's not what happened. So stop citing Smith as someone that the Corbyn left would have supported.

 

[Cheesy]

Name a Corbyn achievement.

One.

Thanks.

The left's obsession with Blair means so many of you would rather a Tory government than an 'impure' Labour one. Smith and Blair were actually far closely aligned than Smith and Corbyn. He would have been hated by the left too had he lived and went on to win. The hard left resent anyone who disrupts their ideal which seems to be perpetual Tory rule so they can complain about it. Only have to look at issues Wilson and Callaghan had with the hard left to know that this isn't an issue unique to Blair. Anyone who wins and is successful for Labour, the left resist.

They only laud Attlee because we're so many decades removed now that they can pretend he was one of theirs. Transplant Attlee into the modern party and the people who take their 'B-LIAR' placard with them wherever they go in case an emergency protest breaks out would have him top of their deselection list.

Blair and Iraq are convenient scapegoats to the fact that there's a long history of the left of the party hating whoever it is who delivers government for them. Smith may not have had Iraq but nor did Callaghan or Wilson and their battles with the same element of the party Corbyn supporters come from isn't expunged from history. Smith would have gone same way. Which is what always makes me laugh when people from the left cite Smith favourable as a 'what if'. The man who, if anything, was the forerunner to the 'neo-liberalism' Blair and Brown (to a lesser extent) heralded. But the poor bastard died so lets pretend the fact he was one of the architects to move Labour away from the left and towards the centre, didn't happen. And let's ignore the fact one of his protegees became one of the most important figures in the New Labour movement.

There are obviously elements of the hard left who will refuse to compromise on anything, but plenty of them are fairly reasonable and continued to vote Labour during the Blair years. Most just argue that for all Blair's good achievements (and there were plenty) that the party just didn't do anywhere near enough to try and further a general left-wing agenda, and that things like the deregulation of the banks and Iraq outweigh the positives of his regime. Which isn't an entirely unfair assessment.

Corbyn himself demonstrated a willingness to compromise for the most part when he took power - Benn, Burnham and more were given key shadow cabinet positions in spite of their policy divergences from Corbyn, and Corbyn's largely been willing to accept some of his ideals like his republicanism aren't going to be implemented by any Labour government he leads and that they're therefore not worth pursuing.

Smith was certainly a lot closer to the centre than Corbyn, but he was undeniably more of a lefty than Blair. As was Brown, actually, who was initially very much a proper socialist but who largely moved more to the centre-ground as his career went on.

 

[oates]

Smith was much, much more closely aligned politically to Blair than Corbyn. It's utter bollocks to pretend otherwise. He might not have been as far to the right of the party as Blair but he was in that general direction. He was responsible for many of the changes that allowed new Labour to be born, both as leader and previously working under Kinnock.

Absurd to somehow claim him as the lost left-wing hope. He was a modernising moderate, far closely aligned with what became of the Labour party post his death than the Labour leadership now. The only reason people play the Smith card is because the poor git croaked it and over the years he's been incorrectly painted as something other than what he was, which was a centrist, moderniser. Not as right-wing as Blair but his side of the party have a more realistic claim to his legacy than anyone else.

Look, the only thing that Smith had in common with Blair was being in Europe. Of course Corbyn is ambivalent. Trying to make out that Blair was closer to Smith is very awkward tbh. Blair wanted to centralise, Smith did not. I think that is a very strange similarity between
them.

EDIT. smith was not a moderniser obviously. Not in the way you mean with Blair.

 

[nickm]

The thing about Corbyn is you can draw draw the totally respectable conclusion from his history, that he speaks to a lot of violent and unpleasant people because he broadly shares their aims, although let be generous and assume not their methods. Or that he speaks to a lot of violent and unpleasant people because he’s a peacemaker, even though he rarely talks to all sides or has any real record of achievementas a peacemaker. Or that he doesn’t care who he speaks to or what they do, and just keeps bumbling into meetings with violent and unpleasant people by accident.

Edit: so I guess he’s either nasty, useless or incompetent, take your pick.

 

[Oscie]

The thing about Corbyn is you can draw draw the totally respectable conclusion from his history, that he speaks to a lot of violent and unpleasant people because he broadly shares their aims, although let be generous and assume not their methods. Or that he speaks to a lot of violent and unpleasant people because he’s a peacemaker, even though he rarely talks to all sides or has any real record of achievementas a peacemaker. Or that he doesn’t care who he speaks to or what they do, and just keeps bumbling into meetings with violent and unpleasant people by accident.

His supporters don't care.

It's "Iraq" and that's it. Tories could win the next 5 elections as long as they get to say "Iraq" to anyone who suggests we should be doing better.

It's the same faction that's opposed every Labour leader who's ever won an election. Winning isn't important, their aim is to control the party. It's why everyone seems completely relaxed about Brexit. Not even bothered he isn't opposing the govt. What's the point in opposing if you've no interest in winning?

It's why 'not losing as bad as feared' is the new 'winning'. Still not a conversation many of his supporters even accept. Not sure why. Maybe if we say the Tories won the election it's a smear, or something.

 

[nickm]

The thing about Corbyn is you can draw draw the totally respectable conclusion from his history, that he speaks to a lot of violent and unpleasant people because he broadly shares their aims, although let be generous and assume not their methods. Or that he speaks to a lot of violent and unpleasant people because he’s a peacemaker, even though he rarely talks to all sides or has any real record of achievementas a peacemaker. Or that he doesn’t care who he speaks to or what they do, and just keeps bumbling into meetings with violent and unpleasant people by accident.

His supporters don't care.

It's "Iraq" and that's it. Tories could win the next 5 elections as long as they get to say "Iraq" to anyone who suggests we should be doing better.

I,agree his supporters don’t care. They are the mirror image of the nutcase Trump,supporters on The Donald on reddit. Which isn’t a compliment by the way.

 

[Adzzz]

His supporters don't care.

It's "Iraq" and that's it. Tories could win the next 5 elections as long as they get to say "Iraq" to anyone who suggests we should be doing better.

It's the same faction that's opposed every Labour leader who's ever won an election. Winning isn't important, their aim is to control the party. It's why everyone seems completely relaxed about Brexit. Not even bothered he isn't opposing the govt. What's the point in opposing if you've no interest in winning?

You literally called it racist and 'nutcasist' earlier, you don't seem too relaxed about it.

 

[Oscie]

You literally called it racist and 'nutcasist' earlier, you don't seem too relaxed about it.

Oh yeah I'm bothered about it. But I'm also bothered that the leader of the party I'm a member of isn't opposing it.

I mean the hard left are relaxed about Brexit, or at least aren't bothered about the lack of opposition to it. And I think that's because fundamentally there's little interest in anything beyond controlling the party and defending their position in that regard. Anything else is of scant importance. Hence why so many people defend the party's non-existent opposition to this Tory hard Brexit. It isn't that they support it, it's because it has nothing directly to do with Corbyn remaining party leader so it isn't of interest.

 

[oates]

I,agree his supporters don’t care. They are the mirror image of the nutcase Trump,supporters on The Donald on reddit. Which isn’t a compliment by the way.

Crikey, wumming in formation now.

 

[Adzzz]

Oh yeah I'm bothered about it. But I'm also bothered that the leader of the party I'm a member of isn't opposing it.

I mean the hard left are relaxed about Brexit, or at least aren't bothered about the lack of opposition to it.

So let us use your logic and prescribe that the hard left, if not always actively supporting brexit (and therefore racist) they are against it, but passive (and therefore allowing the racism to continue) or you should retract a silly statement that belies debate and debases the conversation.

 

[Oscie]

So let us use your logic and prescribe that the hard left, if not always actively supporting brexit (and therefore racist) they are against it, but passive (and therefore allowing the racism to continue) or you should retract a silly statement that belies debate and debases the conversation.

I've literally no idea what you're saying.

Much of the driving force behind Brexit is anti-immigrant racism and loopy economics. An opposition party should be opposing that. Not hold their hands up in surrender. I'm saying the reason why Labour opposition has been so poor on Brexit is because the primary focus is on maintaining Corbyn.

Brexit, NHS or any other shit this govt has messed up is of secondary interest to keeping control of the party and deselecting MPs. Hence why losing an election is hailed as a great result. At any other time of our history vs the 2017 govt led by Theresa May, celebrating that result would have been an embarrassment.

 

[oates]

I've literally no idea what you're saying.

Much of the driving force behind Brexit is anti-immigrant racism and loopy economics. An opposition party should be opposing that. Not hold their hands up in surrender.

Can I suggest that if you are going to keep adding paragraphs to your posts that you show it as an edit? Please, it is etiquette on here I believe. Possibly.

Edit, oh and The Labour Party does oppose Brexit, Jeremy said so, he just doesn't happen to be vocal about it at present.

 

[Oscie]

Okay

EDIT: I will

 

[oates]

Okay

EDIT: I will

And maybe quote people, especially when you are making shit up in reply to other posters. Lovely.

 

[Oscie]

Imagine if Labour was led by someone who actually opposed Brexit. Imagine if post 2016 we had a party that represented the (then) 48% and the majority of young people who overwhelmingly opposed Brexit, in a full-throated opposition this mess from day one.

As it is we've a govt who's hell-bent on delivering a hard Brexit and an opposition whose official line has pretty much been that to stop them is undemocratic. Anyone who has an issue with that is accused of a smear campaign.

 

[oates]

Imagine if Labour was led by someone who actually opposed Brexit. Imagine if post 2016 we had a party that represented the (then) 48% and the majority of young people who overwhelmingly opposed Brexit, in a full-throated opposition this mess from day one.

As it is we've a govt who's hell-bent on delivering a hard Brexit and an opposition whose official line has pretty much been that to stop them is undemocratic. Anyone who has an issue with that is accused of a smear campaign.

Are you by any chance an alter ego of @Muffled funk or @Hectic?

 

[Oscie]

Edit, oh and The Labour Party does oppose Brexit, Jeremy said so, he just doesn't happen to be vocal about it at present.

Yeah, I mean it's not as if it's an important issue or anything that things like words would come in handy over.

But we're not the Tories, maybe we can't afford the risk of strep throat by actually saying stuff.

 

[Oscie]

Are you by any chance an alter ego of @Muffled funk or @Hectic?

If I am I'm not being vocal about it at present.

 

[oates]

Yeah, I mean it's not as if it's an important issue or anything that things like words would come in handy over.

But we're not the Tories, maybe we can't afford the risk of strep throat by actually saying stuff.

Everybody's Talking About Brexit. - Harry Nilsson Corbyn.

Edit. I can't hear a word they're saying.

Nobody is listening to anyone else. The Labour Party is opposed to Brexit. In a Parliamentary vote Labour will vote gain it or for a soft Brexit. Jeremy said so. Doesn't need to keep talking about it when no-one is listening does he?

 

[Oscie]

Labour aren't the Tories, maybe we didn't have the money for a staffer to watch his facebook page.

.

Edit, oh and The Labour Party does oppose Brexit, Jeremy said so, he just doesn't happen to be vocal about it at present.

And yet presumably some will still insist it's those bashing their heads against the brick wall who are the problem, not those who built the wall.

 

[oates]

And yet presumably some will still insist it's those bashing their heads against the brick wall who are the problem, not those who built the wall.

I always think it's probably best if you Oscie stop posting shit when you have had too much alcohol. I've started to think it a lot just in the last page or so.

 

[Adzzz]

I've literally no idea what you're saying.

Much of the driving force behind Brexit is anti-immigrant racism and loopy economics. An opposition party should be opposing that. Not hold their hands up in surrender. I'm saying the reason why Labour opposition has been so poor on Brexit is because the primary focus is on maintaining Corbyn.

Brexit, NHS or any other shit this govt has messed up is of secondary interest to keeping control of the party and deselecting MPs. Hence why losing an election is hailed as a great result. At any other time of our history vs the 2017 govt led by Theresa May, celebrating that result would have been an embarrassment.

I pointed out that you pointed out nobody was bothered by brexit, yet in this thread you're clearly bothered by brexit as you've said it is caused by nutcases and racists, you then go onto say the Labour party doesn't oppose brexit; do you suppose Labour is in a difficult position because many Labour voters also voted for it? Or, that Jeremy Corbyn while 'supporting' remain is a very skeptical man over the EU. The lifelong anti-racism campaigner. Likewise people like Dennis Skinner and the late Tony Benn - clearly both 'nutcases' and 'racists' along with a large amount of the electorate, but letting that slide for the moment, I for one would never claim to know the reasons why the referendum went one way or the other, those who say they know do not - you included.

The party may or may not be keen on keeping Corbyn, but a little like claiming no-one is bothered by brexit, you seem to counter your own logic at each turn, yes?

 

[Oscie]

I always think it's probably best if you Oscie stop posting shit when you have had too much alcohol. I've started to think it a lot just in the last page or so.

Not accepting that from someone who thinks it's perfectly acceptable for the leader of the opposition to be 'not vocal at present' on an issue as important as Brexit.

 

[oates]

Not accepting that from someone who thinks it's perfectly acceptable for the leader of the opposition to be 'not vocal at present' on an issue as important as Brexit.

Yawn.

It's not hard to see why he tires of people that don't listen.

 

[Oscie]

Yawn.

It's not hard to see why he tires of people that don't listen.

He tires of people who don't listen to what you've admit he isn't saying about Brexit?

My expectation levels are too high wanting a leader advised by people who do things and being lead by someone who says stuff.

 

[oates]

He tires of people who don't listen to what you've admit he isn't saying about Brexit?

Do you have the ability to read the posts in between your own Oscie?

 

[Dobba]

Imagine if Labour was led by someone who actually opposed Brexit. Imagine if post 2016 we had a party that represented the (then) 48% and the majority of young people who overwhelmingly opposed Brexit, in a full-throated opposition this mess from day one.

As it is we've a govt who's hell-bent on delivering a hard Brexit and an opposition whose official line has pretty much been that to stop them is undemocratic. Anyone who has an issue with that is accused of a smear campaign.

They're called the Lib Dems. Who knows, maybe your vote will be the one that has them polling double figure percentage points.