Jeremy Corbyn - Not Not Labour Party(?), not a Communist (BBC)

Ubik said:
Can't deny people the enjoyment of a result like that when wipeout was predicted beforehand. I never thought it possible, let alone likely, even a month in advance. Needs to be accompanied by further improvement next time out to mean anything, of course, but given it's still ongoing, people are entitled to their optimism.
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The last election would have been a cake walk for any other post-Foot Labour leader. On paper the Tories had no rights winning that. Government in chaos that lost the referendum and had already governed by then for 7 years. Add to that May outed herself as the worst campaigning party leader in the modern history of British politics. Only by lowering expectations to levels I don't think any Labour voter should be comfortable accepting, was that 'not as shit as feared' election anything to be celebrated.

Of course Corbyn exceeded expectations but that's not a sign of much other than how low the expectations were.
 
Cheesy said:
He's historically been a Eurosceptic and hasn't explicitly committed to remaining in the single market, and not remaining in the single market is tantamount to a hard Brexit. He'll probably commit eventually because a hard Brexit isn't really politically viable in regards to Northern Ireland but for now he's being very evasive on the issue.
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I know. However he wants elements of being in Europe, he knows we can't really do without being in the Single Market and at the same time he can't really afford to go against the majority of his supporters who are Remainers can he? His Agenda is all about the gap between Rich and Poor and the taxing of 'Wealth Producers' which being subject to the EU's regulations won't allow.
 
Oscie said:
The last election would have been a cake walk for any other post-Foot Labour leader. On paper the Tories had no rights winning that. Government in chaos that lost the referendum and had already governed by then for 7 years. Add to that May outed herself as the worst campaigning party leader in the modern history of British politics. Only by lowering expectations to levels I don't think any Labour voter should be comfortable accepting, was that 'not as shit as feared' election anything to be celebrated.

Of course Corbyn exceeded expectations but that's not a sign of much other than how low the expectations were.
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On what basis? Blair was successful in his day but someone like him telling the electorate Brexit wasn't happening/wasn't going to be iterated in the way they want it to be would've been a disaster in that it'd have alienated a significant portion of the Labour voter-base which supported Brexit. Any analysis of how another leader would've coped has to recognise this.
 
oates said:
I know. However he wants elements of being in Europe, he knows we can't really do without being in the Single Market and at the same time he can't really afford to go against the majority of his supporters who are Remainers can he? His Agenda is all about the gap between Rich and Poor and the taxing of 'Wealth Producers' which being subject to the EU's regulations won't allow.
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He can't, but he's going to have to choose at one point. As it stands he hasn't committed to remaining in the single market, and as I said not being in the single market is tantamount to a hard Brexit. Whether he supports Brexit or not, he certainly isn't railing against it.
 
Cheesy said:
On what basis? Blair was successful in his day but someone like him telling the electorate Brexit wasn't happening/wasn't going to be iterated in the way they want it to be would've been a disaster in that it'd have alienated a significant portion of the Labour voter-base which supported Brexit. Any analysis of how another leader would've coped has to recognise this.
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On the basis that what undermined those who didn't win was primarily their inability to 'win' the media. Kinnock not being successful in reaching out to the right-wing press, Brown looking like he'd had someone up his bum each time he tried to smile and Ed and his bacon sandwich and temerity to have a Dad once, much to the chagrin of the Daily Mail.

Even still all to a man handled the media better than Corbyn does. All would have managed the media in the 12 months in the run up to the election better than Corbyn did. Corbyn barely has any allies in the traditional liberal wings of the media that Brown, Kinnock and Milliband had. Were Team Corbyn to have concentrated on at least that then everything mightn't have been such an uphill struggle. Corbyn's lack of interest in making allies even among those in the media who might be considered generally sympathetic, has been a huge mistake.
 
Cheesy said:
On what basis? Blair was successful in his day but someone like him telling the electorate Brexit wasn't happening/wasn't going to be iterated in the way they want it to be would've been a disaster in that it'd have alienated a significant portion of the Labour voter-base which supported Brexit. Any analysis of how another leader would've coped has to recognise this.
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On the basis of all the people who said that Labour would lose dozens of seats before the election.
Oscie said:
On the basis that what undermined those who didn't win was primarily their inability to 'win' the media. Kinnock not being successful in reaching out to the right-wing press, Brown looking like he'd had someone up his bum each time he tried to smile and Ed and his bacon sandwich and temerity to have a Dad once, much to the chagrin of the Daily Mail.

Even still all to a man handled the media better than Corbyn does. All would have managed the media in the 12 months in the run up to the election better than Corbyn did. Corbyn barely has any allies in the traditional liberal wings of the media that Brown, Kinnock and Milliband had. Were Team Corbyn to have concentrated on at least that then everything mightn't have been such an uphill struggle. Corbyn's lack of interest in making allies even among those in the media who might be considered generally sympathetic, has been a huge mistake.
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Yeah, they'd definitely have overlooked the Labour manifesto's call to carry on with Leveson 2.
 
Cheesy said:
He can't, but he's going to have to choose at one point. As it stands he hasn't committed to remaining in the single market, and as I said not being in the single market is tantamount to a hard Brexit. Whether he supports Brexit or not, he certainly isn't railing against it.
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The Manifesto has committed, it's true that he hasn't, the backlash would finish him I'd have thought.
 
Dobba said:
On the basis of all the people who said that Labour would lose dozens of seats before the election.
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I thought the runner up would finish in 11.49 seconds. As it turned out he finished in 10.49 seconds. He still finished 2nd. I wasn't dramatically wrong overall.

Not winning isn't a great result because most people thought you'd do worse than you ended up doing. The idea that "Ah, look at all you doubters who said we'd lose. Okay, we lost but....ahh!! look at all you doubters!" is now the new toast of the party is utterly depressing.
 
I'm all for a Labour leader that depresses you because he doesn't see his primary job as being Dacre and Murdoch's political rentboy. Long may it continue.

I see Labour Friends of Israel have condemned Corbyn, their condemnation of the Israeli government for murdering Palestinian protesters must be lost in the post.
 
Cheesy said:
He can't, but he's going to have to choose at one point. As it stands he hasn't committed to remaining in the single market, and as I said not being in the single market is tantamount to a hard Brexit. Whether he supports Brexit or not, he certainly isn't railing against it.
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Indeed, it's been ruled out on multiple occasions. As has retaining freedom of movement, with Corbyn criticising it as being used to drive wages down. It's a strange situation.
 
Ubik said:
Indeed, it's been ruled out on multiple occasions. As has retaining freedom of movement, with Corbyn criticising it as being used to drive wages down. It's a strange situation.
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I find Labour's abandonment of the principle of freedom of movement to be completely baffling. Owen Jones wrote recently that it's become politically toxic, but I'd argue it's politicians running away from it and ceding ground to Farage and co that has allowed it to become toxic. We've never really had a debate on the issue of freedom of movement. Another fairly extraordinary reality of Brexit.
 
Silva said:
1 second in a 100 meter sprint is huge. Centrists can't even do a decent fecking analogy.
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You think the analogy didn't work because 1 second is significant in a 100 meter race?


Literally don't know where to begin. I think you were on safer ground when you randomly said "Iraq!" on occasion.
 
Okay

I think Club A will win 3-0

You think Club B will win 1-0

Club A wins 2-1 aet. You can't claim to have been right.

"Centrists can't even do analogies, there isn't even a football team called Club B..."
 
Oscie said:
On the basis that what undermined those who didn't win was primarily their inability to 'win' the media. Kinnock not being successful in reaching out to the right-wing press, Brown looking like he'd had someone up his bum each time he tried to smile and Ed and his bacon sandwich and temerity to have a Dad once, much to the chagrin of the Daily Mail.

Even still all to a man handled the media better than Corbyn does. All would have managed the media in the 12 months in the run up to the election better than Corbyn did. Corbyn barely has any allies in the traditional liberal wings of the media that Brown, Kinnock and Milliband had. Were Team Corbyn to have concentrated on at least that then everything mightn't have been such an uphill struggle. Corbyn's lack of interest in making allies even among those in the media who might be considered generally sympathetic, has been a huge mistake.
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You're conveniently ignoring Brexit here. Blair won over The Sun, but Murdoch wasn't backing any Labour party that were committed to stopping/nullifying Brexit. This again gets to the crux of the problem though: liberal wings of the media don't back Corbyn, or do so tentatively, because they're liberal and not left-wing. In this respect anyone who's left-wing is fecked. Telling left-wing people to then just not bother trying to attain a left-wing government isn't going to work, because they're tired of a party which doesn't represent them.
 
Oscie said:
I thought the runner up would finish in 11.49 seconds. As it turned out he finished in 10.49 seconds. He still finished 2nd. I wasn't dramatically wrong overall.
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As the people, whose analysis you're now lauding as fact, were almost all saying that Corbyn would lose Labour seats, the runner is running in the wrong direction in your analogy.
Cheesy said:
You're conveniently ignoring Brexit here. Blair won over The Sun, but Murdoch wasn't backing any Labour party that were committed to stopping/nullifying Brexit. This again gets to the crux of the problem though: liberal wings of the media don't back Corbyn, or do so tentatively, because they're liberal and not left-wing. In this respect anyone who's left-wing is fecked. Telling left-wing people to then just not bother trying to attain a left-wing government isn't going to work, because they're tired of a party which doesn't represent them.
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Brexit and Leveson 2. Both of which the Murdoch and Dacre press would definitely have overlooked had Corbyn smiled more, or something.
 
Ubik said:
Indeed, it's been ruled out on multiple occasions. As has retaining freedom of movement, with Corbyn criticising it as being used to drive wages down. It's a strange situation.
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Yeah, much as Corbyn's had a lot of momentum (heh) I worry that when he commits either way he may be a bit fecked. A proper hard Brexit will nullify a lot of support for him, but a soft Brexit will also alienate a solid base of Northern leave voters who'll feel betrayed. He's in a bit of a no-win situation. Looking ahead to the longer-term though...I wonder if it might be wise for Corbyn to take the hit on his approach here, since he's not in government anyway, for a new left-wing leader to then later replace him and condemn his approach while still retaining his fundamental policy ideals presuming Brexit (hopefully) is being looked upon in a bad light by most of the general public by then.
 
Dobba said:
Brexit and Leveson 2. Both of which the Murdoch and Dacre press would definitely have overlooked had Corbyn smiled more, or something.
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Aye, Blair was very successful in his day but political landscapes change and his approach doesn't really work anymore. By the end of his tenure people had figured him out and even revered figures like Mandelson and Campbell were arguably quite amateurish in how they consistently exposed themselves to scandal in spite of their reputations as background manipulators. Blair managing to get a majority in 05 was basically due to the quirks in a flawed voting system, and by that point voter participation had fallen to dangerously low levels. All the while he was alienating a core Labour base by courting another base who'd flock back to the Tories as soon as Cameron came in.
 
Cheesy said:
You're conveniently ignoring Brexit here. Blair won over The Sun, but Murdoch wasn't backing any Labour party that were committed to stopping/nullifying Brexit. This again gets to the crux of the problem though: liberal wings of the media don't back Corbyn, or do so tentatively, because they're liberal and not left-wing. In this respect anyone who's left-wing is fecked. Telling left-wing people to then just not bother trying to attain a left-wing government isn't going to work, because they're tired of a party which doesn't represent them.
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What strange use of the word 'conveniently'
 
Oscie said:
Okay

I think Club A will win 3-0

You think Club B will win 1-0

Club A wins 2-1 aet. You can't claim to have been right.

"Centrists can't even do analogies, there isn't even a football team called Club B..."
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I mean, that is a closer analogy. But much like this in analogy, you can't see the season for the games.
 
Cheesy said:
Yeah, much as Corbyn's had a lot of momentum (heh) I worry that when he commits either way he may be a bit fecked. A proper hard Brexit will nullify a lot of support for him, but a soft Brexit will also alienate a solid base of Northern leave voters who'll feel betrayed. He's in a bit of a no-win situation. Looking ahead to the longer-term though...I wonder if it might be wise for Corbyn to take the hit on his approach here, since he's not in government anyway, for a new left-wing leader to then later replace him and condemn his approach while still retaining his fundamental policy ideals presuming Brexit (hopefully) is being looked upon in a bad light by most of the general public by then.
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I think he's fine as long as he doesn't put it on a mug tbh.
 
Dobba said:
As the people, whose analysis you're now lauding as fact, were almost all saying that Corbyn would lose Labour seats, the runner is running in the wrong direction in your analogy.
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Yeah I thought he would too.

But you were also wrong, unless you actually went into the election thinking Corbyn would lose meaning you backed a leader who you thought would lead to a Tory win. Is that what happened?

It's either that or you thought he'd win, in which case you're hardly in a position to point out my prediction errors.
 
Silva said:
Yeah, I really can't imagine why left wing voters might be excited by the trend that shows them a path to a left wing government. Such strange people.
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Hmm, do you not think the 2017 election was Corbyn's high water mark?

He was starting with very low expectations, against high expectations for May, who turned out to be rather incompetent. The Brexit referendum was recent enough for the students and young to turn out in large numbers, but many if not all of these things will be different next time around. May will (surely) be gone, and everyone will expect even greater things from JC. The only hope he has is that Brexit goes disastrously, and he can capitalise on the job the Tories have done in negotiating an unpopular withdrawal.
 
Oscie said:
What strange use of the word 'conveniently'
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You're ignoring my point here. Your argument that Labour would've won the last election with any post-Foot leader other than Corbyn ignores the significant social and political shifts we've seen since then. Blair did well in his day but would likely get savaged in an election now. In the same way that Thatcher was once the most imperious political figure in the land but would've probably befallen a similar fate to Major in 97 had she somehow stayed on. Times change. There's a clear dissatisfaction among the liberal left with centrist politics, as is being evidenced across a number of European countries, and just pretending that isn't a thing doesn't help.
 
17 Van der Gouw said:
Hmm, do you not think the 2017 election was Corbyn's high water mark?

He was starting with very low expectations, against high expectations for May, who turned out to be rather incompetent. The Brexit referendum was recent enough for the students and young to turn out in large numbers, but many if not all of these things will be different next time around. May will (surely) be gone, and everyone will expect even greater things from JC. The only hope he has is that Brexit goes disastrously, and he can capitalise on the job the Tories have done in negotiating an unpopular withdrawal.
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This is reasonable, low expectations vs horrible opponent.

Can't deny he did better than I expected but I still expected him not to be PM when the last vote was counted.
 
Cheesy said:
You're ignoring my point here. Your argument that Labour would've won the last election with any post-Foot leader other than Corbyn ignores the significant social and political shifts we've seen since then. Blair did well in his day but would likely get savaged in an election now. In the same way that Thatcher was once the most imperious political figure in the land but would've probably befallen a similar fate to Major in 97 had she somehow stayed on. Times change. There's a clear dissatisfaction among the liberal left with centrist politics, as is being evidenced across a number of European countries, and just pretending that isn't a thing doesn't help.
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I'm not ignoring your point, your use of words to suggest everything I say is a result of some kind of conspiracy is simply annoying, that's all. I didn't mention Brexit because it wasn't relevant to the point I was making. Nor was it particularly relevant to the point you're making either. So much so that in this post you haven't mentioned it either.

So stop with the 'You've conveniently not mentioned something I don't particularly find important enough to mention either' thing.
 
Oscie said:
I'm not ignoring your point, your use of words to suggest everything I say is a result of some kind of conspiracy is simply annoying, that's all. I didn't mention Brexit because it wasn't relevant to the point I was making. Nor was it particularly relevant to the point you're making either. So much so that in this post you haven't mentioned it either.
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My general point is that a centrist Labour leader cannot win a general election right now because that leader would unanimously reject a hard Brexit, and in turn would alienate swathes of Labour voters who supported Brexit and would thus feel ignored and patronised. That's not unrealistic or unfair, I don't think.
 
Oscie said:
I'm not ignoring your point, your use of words to suggest everything I say is a result of some kind of conspiracy is simply annoying, that's all. I didn't mention Brexit because it wasn't relevant to the point I was making. Nor was it particularly relevant to the point you're making either. So much so that in this post you haven't mentioned it either.

So stop with the 'You've conveniently not mentioned something I don't particularly find important enough to mention either' thing.
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Oscie said:
All would have managed the media in the 12 months in the run up to the election better than Corbyn did.
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Agenda more than conspiracy. Who the fecks plans 12 months for a snap election?
 
Silva said:
Agenda more than conspiracy. Who the fecks plans 12 months for a snap election?
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Leaders who think maybe it's an idea to prepare?

What else is an opposition leader doing if it isn't readying himself and his party to win an election whenever it may come?
 
In any consideration of how a centrist Labour leader would fair in any election, I think we've also got to consider Scotland. There isn't really any room for a centrist leader to succeed in Scotland right now, and barring a sudden SNP collapse that means a hypothetical centrist leader would be working from 35-40 less seats than Blair/Brown were automatically. Granted, the left's popularity in Scotland remains somewhat limited, but it's proven slightly more successful than Miliband/Murphy did so far.
 
Silva said:
Since you're such a clever boy, tell us, when's the next snap election?
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You're aware that the leader of the opposition isn't a temporary position for which the advert goes up on Indeed 5 weeks before election day, aren't you? It's kind of a full-time role where the primary focus is to ready your party to win elections.


What's the job of the leader of the opposition?

To prepare for government but only 5 weeks before an election is called.

Again: new norms and all that.
 
Silva said:
Agenda more than conspiracy. Who the fecks plans 12 months for a snap election?
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Any other post-Foot Labour leader would have developed time travel to go back and secretly plan in advance, so to let May still trigger the snap election. But publicly enough that the Murdoch and Dacre press would have noticed how much they actually like him. But secretly enough that the people who view Murdoch and Dacre as the scumbags they are didn't turn on Corbyn for cosying up to them.
 
Dobba said:
Any other post-Foot Labour leader would have developed time travel to go back and secretly plan in advance, so to let May still trigger the snap election. But publicly enough that the Murdoch and Dacre press would have noticed how much they actually like him. But secretly enough that the people who view Murdoch and Dacre as the scumbags they are didn't turn on Corbyn for cosying up to them.
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Also Murdoch would have somehow ended up supporting an anti-Brexit Labour leader, because reasons.
 
Oscie said:
Leaders who think maybe it's an idea to prepare?

What else is an opposition leader doing if it isn't readying himself and his party to win an election whenever it may come?
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Fighting against factions arising from his surprising ascent to the leadership and a distinct lack of PLP support?
 
Oscie said:
You're aware that the leader of the opposition isn't a temporary position for which the advert goes up on Indeed 5 weeks before election day, aren't you?
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And you're aware that snap elections only get called when the ruling party thinks it's a nailed on victory aren't you? Tell us, how did Jeremy do compared to Brown and Labours favourite Milliband?
 
Everyone in politics should have been on high alert for a snap election the moment Cameron announced he was going to resign in June 2016. Describing the election of a year later as some kind of unforeseen event that poor planning could be forgiven is quite a stretch.
 
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