Jeremy Corbyn - Not Not Labour Party(?), not a Communist (BBC)

jeff_goldblum said:
1. Yes to Deal
2. No to Deal, Yes to Brexit (renegotiate)
3. No to Deal, No to Brexit

I
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Hypothetically lets say it goes

1...30%
2...25%
3...45%

would we go with No to deal and No to brexit

because we have a majority for Yes to brexit?

I honestly think anything beyond a really broad yes / no is doomed to fail - and much as I personally think a second vote should be done I think the legalities are no matter what we vote we are out on 25th March whatever no matter if we vote for renegotiation or not .... I also dont think its 100% clear if we could just cancel the process (or does it require others to agree to this)

I don't think we will get another vote ... and even if we do unless its a big majority either way I think the domestic and internal political arguments just intensify
 
Shamwow said:
Could you share a single post you've made on this thread that would have been worth engaging with?
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No, I can't stand the cnut :D

However, Oscie, who is a Labour supporter and has posted at length gets no more respect than someone like me, who just can't stand the cnut.

My boss, who is a fully paid up member of the Labour Party, didn't vote for them in the last election.
 
Sassy Colin said:
No, I can't stand the cnut :D

However, Oscie, who is a Labour supporter and has posted at length gets no more respect than someone like me, who just can't stand the cnut.

My boss, who is a fully paid up member of the Labour Party, didn't vote for them in the last election.
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:lol:

Oscie voted Lib Dem last election(Even Blair didn't go that far). And yeah why wouldn't your boss vote for a socialist leader who wants to improve the workers rights and strength trade unions must be because of Corbyn dress sense.
 
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Sweet Square said:
:lol:

Oscie voted Lib Dem last election(Even Blair didn't go that far). And yeah why wouldn't your boss vote for a socialist leader who wants to improve the workers rights and strength trade unions must be because of Corbyn dress sense.
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No, mostly because McDonnell is a Marxist.
 
Sassy Colin said:
No, I can't stand the cnut :D

However, Oscie, who is a Labour supporter and has posted at length gets no more respect than someone like me, who just can't stand the cnut.

My boss, who is a fully paid up member of the Labour Party, didn't vote for them in the last election.
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I too support the Labour Party by...not voting for the Labour Party.

I'm also King of England.
 
Sassy Colin said:
No, I can't stand the cnut :D

However, Oscie, who is a Labour supporter and has posted at length gets no more respect than someone like me, who just can't stand the cnut.

My boss, who is a fully paid up member of the Labour Party, didn't vote for them in the last election.
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Oscie doesn't give any more respect than you either. I don't get why you think one side is worse than the other here when he posts the same angry shit about cultists almost every day. It's not exactly the best of discourse is it.
 
Pogue Mahone said:
It does seem kind of unprecedented to have an army of follows on Twitter who jump all over any criticism of him and call it unprecedented. With a load of hashtags declaring their undying support for poor, persecuted Jeremy.

If we’re looking for stuff that’s actually unprecedented, that’s probably worth a mention
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Corbyn isn’t the only politician with supporters on Twitter. There are tons of Trump supporters who defend him on it. Corbyn’s critics have won their Twitter supporters too.

It’s not exclusive to Corbyn and it’s just normal now, isn’t it?
 
Sassy Colin said:
Except, as it's been made quite clear by me and Oscie, it's people on this Forum we are talking about, not in general.

You guys won't hear/read a word said against him, hence the appearance of a cult.
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He’s received plenty of criticism here, even from posters who hold progressive views. If you don’t contribute anything to the discussion beyond rambling about those who back him and not offering alternatives of your own, then you’re wasting your time and energy.
 
sun_tzu said:
Hypothetically lets say it goes

1...30%
2...25%
3...45%

would we go with No to deal and No to brexit

because we have a majority for Yes to brexit?

I honestly think anything beyond a really broad yes / no is doomed to fail - and much as I personally think a second vote should be done I think the legalities are no matter what we vote we are out on 25th March whatever no matter if we vote for renegotiation or not .... I also dont think its 100% clear if we could just cancel the process (or does it require others to agree to this)

I don't think we will get another vote ... and even if we do unless its a big majority either way I think the domestic and internal political arguments just intensify
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In that situation I think Remain would have to accept a loss and Yes Deal would have to accept renegotiation. Admittedly, anything less than a win for No Brexit or Yes to Deal basically leaves us exactly where we've been, but at least it would confirm

a) that a majority still want Brexit
b) that the majority aren't happy with whatever deal is on the table

and allow the political conversation to be based on approaches as opposed to whether it's going to happen or not. As I said though, I very much doubt we'd see anything but a win for Remain.
 
Shamwow said:
Another stunning contribution from a non-Corbynista. Why aren't the Corbyn supporters engaging with all these amazing arguments built of pure logic and reason? Why are they defending their dear leader, the stupid cult twats? WHAT IS GOING ON?
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its a polemic statement, that highlights a valid issues. In 2013 Corbyn described Chavez as "an inspiration to all of us fighting back against austerity and neoliberal economics in Europe" (what does that tell us about his thoughts on the EU?). He visited Chavez & Maduro multiple times, shared plattforms with them, praised them, lobbied for them and appeared in their propaganda channels. In 2017, when the regime openly fought its own people on the street and de-facto abolished the parliament, he condemed violence on both sides and praised the regime for their success in ending poverty and analphabism. He praised them for their fight against POVERTY, while most of the citizens are litterarily starving. He couldn't bring himself to condem the regime without creating a false equivalence between the violence of the protesters and the state.

It is true that the Labour party doesn't embrace the ideals of the Venezuelan socialism; most of Labour's voters don't want anything to do with this nonsense. Both his own party and the british institutions fortunately put huge constraints on Corbyn and push him towards the center. Even if he manages to become the PM, he'd be unable to go "socialismo del siglo XXI". Still his vision of running a country is a lot closer to that of Venezuela than its to any modern european liberal democracy (incl. scandinavian social democracy). Of course nowadays its not sexy anymore to be associated with Venezuela. So pointing out his huge love-in for this regime is "unfair smear". Its always smear and apparently we are missing some context, when in reality its cristal clear what he meant. The good thing about Corbyn is, that he was never afraid to be pretty forthcoming about his rather extreme ideas before he became leader of his party.
 
PedroMendez said:
its a polemic statement, that highlights a valid issues. In 2013 Corbyn described Chavez as "an inspiration to all of us fighting back against austerity and neoliberal economics in Europe" (what does that tell us about his thoughts on the EU?). He visited Chavez & Maduro multiple times, shared plattforms with them, praised them, lobbied for them and appeared in their propaganda channels. In 2017, when the regime openly fought its own people on the street and de-facto abolished the parliament, he condemed violence on both sides and praised the regime for their success in ending poverty and analphabism. He praised them for their fight against POVERTY, while most of the citizens are litterarily starving. He couldn't bring himself to condem the regime without creating a false equivalence between the violence of the protesters and the state.

It is true that the Labour party doesn't embrace the ideals of the Venezuelan socialism; most of Labour's voters don't want anything to do with this nonsense. Both his own party and the british institutions fortunately put huge constraints on Corbyn and push him towards the center. Even if he manages to become the PM, he'd be unable to go "socialismo del siglo XXI". Still his vision of running a country is a lot closer to that of Venezuela than its to any modern european liberal democracy (incl. scandinavian social democracy). Of course nowadays its not sexy anymore to be associated with Venezuela. So pointing out his huge love-in for this regime is "unfair smear". Its always smear and apparently we are missing some context, when in reality its cristal clear what he meant. The good thing about Corbyn is, that he was never afraid to be pretty forthcoming about his rather extreme ideas before he became leader of his party.
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Yeah I love a good non-sequitur too.
 
@PedroMendez
How are Corbyn's proposals closer to Venezuela than, say, Norway?

https://blog.oup.com/2017/08/norway-venezuela-economic-crisis/

https://www.peoplespolicyproject.or...-government-owns-most-of-the-countrys-wealth/

From what I remember, the main things he proposed were standard welfare state stuff - NHS funding, free college, house building, raising unemployment benefits - combined with (mostly) passively reversing privatisations in sectors that are publicly-owned in many countries (outside Venezuela too). The most radical proposal was that workers have the right to collectively buy a factory that is about to be shut.

(edited 1 link)
 
Corbyn said:
“We are determined to achieve an economic relationship with Europe which gives us tariff-free access to the European market and also the appropriate customs arrangements that go with it.”

Asked about the prospect of a no-deal Brexit, the Labour leader continued: “It would be completely unacceptable.

“If there’s no deal then you’re looking at a cliff edge, there has to be an agreement, there has to be a transition period.

“We will use our position in parliament to make sure there is an agreement.”
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NinjaFletch said:
Posted as an example of the similarity of Corbyn and May's Brexit policy?
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Not entirely sure what you mean. Corbyn believes we can leave the single market and customs union but negotiate tariff free access. This is completely different to May's policy, which is to ludicrously suggest that we will leave the single market and customs union but somehow still negotiate tariff free access.

Wait...you're not....you're not smearing him are you? You should be ashamed, fecking ashamed.
 
“Let me be clear, Labour will not support any Brexit deal that includes the return of a hard border to this island,” Mr Corbyn said.

“We are also clear there must be no effective border created in the Irish Sea either.”

Mr Corbyn said it was his party’s position for the UK to have a customs union after Brexit with access to the single market. He warned of the effect of Brexit, the dangers of a hard border coming back, and of the importance of “peace in Ireland”.

Saw this in the Irish Times https://www.irishtimes.com/news/ire...th-hard-border-and-irish-sea-border-1.3507271

Any particular customs union he wants to join or is it remaining in the EUCU.
 
Paul the Wolf said:
“Let me be clear, Labour will not support any Brexit deal that includes the return of a hard border to this island,” Mr Corbyn said.

“We are also clear there must be no effective border created in the Irish Sea either.”

Mr Corbyn said it was his party’s position for the UK to have a customs union after Brexit with access to the single market. He warned of the effect of Brexit, the dangers of a hard border coming back, and of the importance of “peace in Ireland”.

Saw this in the Irish Times https://www.irishtimes.com/news/ire...th-hard-border-and-irish-sea-border-1.3507271

Any particular customs union he wants to join or is it remaining in the EUCU.
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Are you certain that's not a Theresa May speach with the names changed?
 
@Oscie , we get your point about labour needing a better leader than Corbyn. But it is tiresome to see you snatch on to every minute detail just to criticize Corbyn and this causes people who support Corbyn to respond to your endless critique with mostly reasonable defending but sometimes ridiculous defense. You then latch on to that ridiculous defense and reply with even worse criticism. Others then latch on to the 'even worse criticism' with more ridiculous defense. This just continues unabated. For a casual reader like me who tries to read the thread to see if there is some meaningful change with Jeremy's position with reference to important issues, it's all about laying wreaths and taking dumps. You are passionately invested in this issue, but it all seems a bit futile at this point. Can you consider ignoring this thread for a while?
 
Yes it's almost as if criticism of politicians shouldn't be allowed, isn't it?

Hopefully everyone who thinks Brexit is going badly stays out of that thread for a while for the sake of all people who get annoyed at that being pointed out.
 
Kaos said:
He’s received plenty of criticism here, even from posters who hold progressive views. If you don’t contribute anything to the discussion beyond rambling about those who back him and not offering alternatives of your own, then you’re wasting your time and energy.
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I have nothing better to do :D:(
 
Paul the Wolf said:
“Let me be clear, Labour will not support any Brexit deal that includes the return of a hard border to this island,” Mr Corbyn said.

“We are also clear there must be no effective border created in the Irish Sea either.”

Mr Corbyn said it was his party’s position for the UK to have a customs union after Brexit with access to the single market. He warned of the effect of Brexit, the dangers of a hard border coming back, and of the importance of “peace in Ireland”.

Saw this in the Irish Times https://www.irishtimes.com/news/ire...th-hard-border-and-irish-sea-border-1.3507271

Any particular customs union he wants to join or is it remaining in the EUCU.
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Keir Starmer keeps mentioning that it is 'a' customs union, rather than 'the' customs union, so at least at the moment Labour will not remain part of the EUCU, but want something bespoke and 'better'. Whatever that means.
 
711 said:
Means not on the table and unobtainable I think.
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Yes completely. Labour's policy is basically to wait until Brexit becomes a disaster under the Tories and then win the next election. Which coincidentally was the same strategy they took with the Poll Tax. And that didn't work so well in 1992.
 
Frosty said:
Keir Starmer keeps mentioning that it is 'a' customs union, rather than 'the' customs union, so at least at the moment Labour will not remain part of the EUCU, but want something bespoke and 'better'. Whatever that means.
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Yes because if they say 'the' customs union they know it means they can't do these super-duper deals and hope that the British public will be again gullible enough to believe the nonsense.
It's the same drivel as May's but just worded slightly differently.

The only country with 'a' customs union is Turkey because they were an emerging market and due to join the EU eventually. This would be totally inappropriate for the UK.

The UK seems obsessed with Turkey, first we had the Leave Project Fear of millions of Turks invading the UK, then we had the turkeys voting for Xmas in the referendum and now wanting a Turkey model customs union. The only likely outcome is the Pound following the Turkish Lira.
 
Paul the Wolf said:
Yes because if they say 'the' customs union they know it means they can't do these super-duper deals and hope that the British public will be again gullible enough to believe the nonsense.
It's the same drivel as May's but just worded slightly differently.

The only country with 'a' customs union is Turkey because they were an emerging market and due to join the EU eventually. This would be totally inappropriate for the UK.

The UK seems obsessed with Turkey, first we had the Leave Project Fear of millions of Turks invading the UK, then we had the turkeys voting for Xmas in the referendum and now wanting a Turkey model customs union. The only likely outcome is the Pound following the Turkish Lira.
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As an aside, I often wonder what the Referendum result would have been if the failed coup had been even three weeks earlier than it was. If it had occurred in June rather than July 2016, that would surely have ended all campaigning on the fears of 90m Turks flooding to the UK.
 
Frosty said:
As an aside, I often wonder what the Referendum result would have been if the failed coup had been even three weeks earlier than it was. If it had occurred in June rather than July 2016, that would surely have ended all campaigning on the fears of 90m Turks flooding to the UK.
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But at no point were Turkey remotely close to joining the EU in the foreseeable future with or without the attempted coup. The Leave campaign lied the whole time about almost everything so they would probably have twisted the attempted coup into scaring the voters that Turks would flee to the UK.
 
Frosty said:
Keir Starmer keeps mentioning that it is 'a' customs union, rather than 'the' customs union, so at least at the moment Labour will not remain part of the EUCU, but want something bespoke and 'better'. Whatever that means.
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Which is exactly the problem of holding up what he said yesterday as meaningful opposition. His policy is the same as May's. Now Silva may be arguing that because he's saying 'we will get a deal' or however he's worded it means that he'd concede and would eventually agree to the Customs Union and Single Market, but the fact that he's not saying that means that he must have reservations about certain things that come with them (almost certainly Free movement as he's spoken out about it even recently).
 
NinjaFletch said:
Which is exactly the problem of holding up what he said yesterday as meaningful opposition. His policy is the same as May's. Now Silva may be arguing that because he's saying 'we will get a deal' or however he's worded it means that he'd concede and would eventually agree to the Customs Union and Single Market, but the fact that he's not saying that means that he must have reservations about certain things that come with them (almost certainly Free movement as he's spoken out about it even recently).
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I cannot disagree with that. Labour is riven with contradictions and divides.

Broadly speaking, Corbyn supports a Bennite vision of a 'Lexit', although he cannot admit that. He is also poorly supported by his SPADs who are focusing solely on the detail that 65% of Labour constituencies voted Leave and so they cannot be 'betrayed' (even though academic studies have shown that in those constituencies if Labour supported Remain they would not lose votes, even from Labour Leave voters).

Then you have Starmer with his six tests which are ultimately meaningless and are a moveable feast. Ultimately Corbyn and the leadership are trying to thread the eye of a needle and making vacuous statements which both Leave and Remain voters (and Labour MPs!) can interpret as supporting their position. And it comes back to the ultimate strategic point - Labour are not opposing Brexit, but rather waiting for it to blow up in the Tories faces and win the next GE on the back of that. Which is by no means guaranteed.
 
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