Jeremy Corbyn - Not Not Labour Party(?), not a Communist (BBC)

What's the issue?
What is your point ?

You thinking Momentum are some far left ''foot soldiers'' has got nothing to do Lansman but your lack of knowledge on the subject. Also Lansman didn't help ''propel'' Corbyn to the top. They are both people on the labour left who have so far put together successful socialist political campaigns.
 
What is your point ?

You thinking Momentum are some far left ''foot soldiers'' has got nothing to do Lansman but your lack of knowledge on the subject. Also Lansman didn't help ''propel'' Corbyn to the top. They are both people on the labour left who have so far put together successful socialist political campaigns.

You used the term 'far left'. Not me.

Okay, Lansman had no involvement in 2015...
 
They are a left faction within Labour that became possible only after he became leader. If he is harming the party's prospects, and I believe he is once Boris became PM, they need to look at ways to remove him.

I'm unsure how people can come to any other conclusion when his polling is historically unpopular for an opposition leader. Any left-wing leader is going to get attacked by the press but it doesn't negate the fact that Corbyn's typically not been very good at countering those attacks. Even someone like McDonnell at this stage is a much stronger speaker, and despite his controversial past generally comes across as a more impressive figure. And even if that doesn't work out - it's hard to argue the party should just be staying where they are, for all the pro-Brexit/anti-Brexit debates about the party, if polling is telling us one thing is that Corbyn just...isn't liked. At all. Polling recently had him barely beating out Boris on trust, if at all. And if he can't even come across well in that regard, it's hard to see what he actually offers.

There is, of course, the slim chance he'll turn things around and mount a solid election campaign (because he is a good campaigner) but most of the evidence we have right now suggests he won't become PM. Thinking back, I'm struggling to think of any even remotely recent UK opposition leader (without a previous stint as PM) who started out unpopular, lost an election, continued being unpopular and then later won an election.
 
That would be the election Labour stood on a Leave manifesto promising to honour Brexit? It was all very nuanced I suppose.

Not sure how this is relevant. Every Labour MP (including those who are now agitating for a hard Remain position) campaigned under that manifesto. Regardless of the contents of the manifesto, if Labour had come out of 2017 with couple more MPs at the cost of the Tories, we wouldn't be talking about No Deal here in 2019. Policy would have changed (as it has done) as it became increasingly clear that the options were pointless Brexit (staying in custom union) vs. disastrous Brexit (no deal) and we'd be on our way to People's Vote.
 
You used the term 'far left'. Not me.
Foot soldiers sort of implies far left, no ?
Okay, Lansman had no involvement in 2015...
I never said Landman had no involvement in 2015, just the he didn't help ''propel'' Corbyn into winning the leadership contest in 2015 and 2016. Lansman was one of many on both campaigns.
 
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I'm unsure how people can come to any other conclusion when his polling is historically unpopular for an opposition leader. Any left-wing leader is going to get attacked by the press but it doesn't negate the fact that Corbyn's typically not been very good at countering those attacks. Even someone like McDonnell at this stage is a much stronger speaker, and despite his controversial past generally comes across as a more impressive figure. And even if that doesn't work out - it's hard to argue the party should just be staying where they are, for all the pro-Brexit/anti-Brexit debates about the party, if polling is telling us one thing is that Corbyn just...isn't liked. At all. Polling recently had him barely beating out Boris on trust, if at all. And if he can't even come across well in that regard, it's hard to see what he actually offers.

There is, of course, the slim chance he'll turn things around and mount a solid election campaign (because he is a good campaigner) but most of the evidence we have right now suggests he won't become PM. Thinking back, I'm struggling to think of any even remotely recent UK opposition leader (without a previous stint as PM) who started out unpopular, lost an election, continued being unpopular and then later won an election.

His personal polling was always bad, but the party was doing fine. I don't buy that he was significantly weighing them down, I think the numbers reflected the Brexit confusion of the party and larger electorate, the popularity of the left among younger people, and the hard floor of labour voting support.

This has changed with Boris and I think his appointment changes the contours of the election. Maybe I'm wrong and the actual election will broaden, but I think it's now a straight race between for and anti Brexit - a terrible position for the losing side (remain) especially since it's split.
 
Foot soldiers sort of implies far left, no ?

I never said Landman had no involvement in 2015, just the he didn't help ''propel'' Corbyn into winning the leadership contest in 2015 and 2016. Lansman was one of many on a campaign team.

I genuinely used the term 'foot soldiers' in the context of somebody carrying out work in an unofficial capacity.

If the link between Corbyn and Momentum isn't as indelible as you say it is, then I'll take your word for it on the basis that you're likely better placed to make that call.
 
His personal polling was always bad, but the party was doing fine. I don't buy that he was significantly weighing them down, I think the numbers reflected the Brexit confusion of the party and larger electorate, the popularity of the left among younger people, and the hard floor of labour voting support.

This has changed with Boris and I think his appointment changes the contours of the election. Maybe I'm wrong and the actual election will broaden, but I think it's now a straight race between for and anti Brexit - a terrible position for the losing side (remain) especially since it's split.

His personal numbers have gotten worse though, indeed his numbers were at his best back in 2017 when he was actually doing alright. I feel like it's hard to argue at this point the party isn't inherently hampered by a leader who is just massively unpopular with the wider electorate.
 
It will depend on how much of the election will be about Brexit. With it around the corner at the end of October, it will of course be talked about but I can't see it being the only focus(Not to forget the tories will have to this time activity run on a no deal brexit). Given the way our news functions and that one party(Labour) will trying to talk about anything other than Brexit.

Edit - example the by election last night

Buoyant Lib Dems keep quiet on Brexit in Brecon and Radnorshire

https://www.theguardian.com/politic...s-to-brexit-brecon-and-radnorshire-byelection

Jesus christ man, you really think that an election just weeks before we're due to crash out of Europe will be about anything other than Brexit? The media are going to make it issue 1, 2 and 3 and it will be all that people are talking about. That might not suit Jeremy, but its the simple reality.

As for the election last night, it was a single election in a seat in a Leave area that the Lib Dems were trying to take off the pro-Leave Tories while holding off the Brexit Party. Of course they weren't focusing on Brexit in their campaigning.
 
I genuinely used the term 'foot soldiers' in the context of somebody carrying out work in an unofficial capacity.
Fair enough.

If the link between Corbyn and Momentum isn't as indelible as you say it is, then I'll take your word for it on the basis that you're likely better placed to make that call.
The link of course but thats because Corbyn is still the best left option there is at the moment. It been asked a million times on here who should replace him and the answer is always - er.......I don't know, Corbyn is bad. If Corbyn loses the next election then momentum will have another candidate.



Jesus christ man, you really think that an election just weeks before we're due to crash out of Europe will be about anything other than Brexit? The media are going to make it issue 1, 2 and 3 and it will be all that people are talking about. That might not suit Jeremy, but its the simple reality.
Possibly yes.

The public literally don't care about Brexit as much as people on here do. Labour will have a second referendum position, the tories will mostly have a no deal position(Boris will want to keep it the election on brexit but will move away at times because of how ridiculous his position is)and the Lib Dem will have the same position as labour (Anything more remain-isa is stupid).

After these positions are put forward, general public will want to know who's going to fund invest in public services, fix the housing crisis etc etc. The media due to its need to 1)feel dead air time 2)giving equal time to political parties, can't spend all day and night on brexit.


Again I could be easily wrong(It wouldn't be the first time)but saying its ''simply reality'' won't cut it.
 
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The public literally don't care about Brexit as much as people on here do.

..

Again I could be easily wrong(It wouldn't be the first time)but saying its ''simply reality'' won't cut it.

Ok, what evidence do you have to support the idea that the public literally don't care about the issue that has dominated the news and politics for the last 3 years?
 
Ok, what evidence do you have to support the idea that the public literally don't care about the issue that has dominated the news and politics for the last 3 years?

And likewise, if the public don't care about Brexit then I'd be very intrigued to know why a lot of Labour voters are switching to the Lib Dems.
 
Ok, what evidence do you have to support the idea that the public literally don't care about the issue that has dominated the news and politics for the last 3 years?
I didn't say they don't care at all, just that they care less than the people on here.
The public literally don't care about Brexit as much as people on here do.

They (thankfully) don't know who James O'Brien is, they aren't on twitter with millions hash tags and they don't(Again thankfully)take seriously the words of former spin doctors.

We've had one election after Brexit where it was a non issue, a eu election where turnout was under 40%, a ton of positive view for no deal comes from people just wanting the process to end, so we can talk about other stuff(Yes yes I know brexit doesn't end if the uk leaves at the end of October)and even in the result last night you've said of course the lib dems weren't focusing on Brexit in their campaigning.

Again I'm not saying brexit will be a non issue of course it won't but the people who are saying the next election(Proving we even have one)will be all about Brexit are also the same people who haven't talked about anything else since referendum result.

Also just because something has dominated the news doesn't mean the public are just as interested /invested in it.
 
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I didn't say they don't care at all, just that they care less than the people on here.

So if it's not Brexit which has seen Labour sliding in the polls with supporters going directly to the Lib Dems, i.e. a party centred on Remain credentials, what is it instead then? The public seemingly care enough for it to dent Labour's election chances significantly and that's surely the key point surrounding all of this.
 
So if it's not Brexit which has seen Labour sliding in the polls with supporters going directly to the Lib Dems, i.e. a party centred on Remain credentials, what is it instead then? The public seemingly care enough for it to dent Labour's election chances significantly and that's surely the key point surrounding all of this.
We don't know that until the next election. Labour were top of the polls not to long ago. Current polling means jack shit at the moment, other than annoying certain people on twitter/forums (Which in fairness is does pass the day away and more productive than refreshing the transfers thread).

Its one thing for a person to say in mid January that they'll vote lib dem because Labour are shit at stopping brexit, its other thing for them to do it after a general election campagin.
 
We don't know that until the next election. Labour were top of the polls not to long ago. Current polling means jack shit at the moment, other than annoying certain people on twitter/forums (Which in fairness is does pass the day away and more productive than refreshing the transfers thread).

But the problem with this approach is that polling only means jack-shit when Labour are doing poorly - when the Lib Dems weren't polling well it was commonplace for their dire figures to be cited here as evidence that they as a party and the centre-ground as a whole were unpopular. Similarly whenever Labour do well in a poll Corbyn supporters will regularly trump them as evidence of his viability in any prospective election. Not really sure it can go both ways.

Polling is incredibly volatile right now, and I suspect that come any election old habits would die hard to an extent and Labour would out-perform the Lib Dems, but even if the LD's hold at 15% or so then that's got the potential to have a fairly grim impact on Labour's chances. The only real chance the party seems to have of getting near government right now is hoping the Brexit Party pick up again and Boris' honeymoon with No Dealers wears off. Which strikes me as somewhat unlikely considering he's still unpopular himself anyway.

Ultimately in such circumstances it's fairly natural for people to point out that the Labour leader who hasn't mounted poll leads for the last four years might be the problem when that tends to be a fairly basic requirement for forming governments, especially when said leader is historically unpopular for someone in opposition. And again - if Labour were completely willing to ignore polls then they'd maybe have a stake to claim here, but that's not the case. Polls are regularly cited and brought up when Corbyn is performing well, and then seen as something volatile to be ignored when he isn't.
 
But the problem with this approach is that polling only means jack-shit when Labour are doing poorly - when the Lib Dems weren't polling well it was commonplace for their dire figures to be cited here as evidence that they as a party and the centre-ground as a whole were unpopular. Similarly whenever Labour do well in a poll Corbyn supporters will regularly trump them as evidence of his viability in any prospective election. Not really sure it can go both ways.

Polling is incredibly volatile right now, and I suspect that come any election old habits would die hard to an extent and Labour would out-perform the Lib Dems, but even if the LD's hold at 15% or so then that's got the potential to have a fairly grim impact on Labour's chances. The only real chance the party seems to have of getting near government right now is hoping the Brexit Party pick up again and Boris' honeymoon with No Dealers wears off. Which strikes me as somewhat unlikely considering he's still unpopular himself anyway.
Er.... my post

Current polling means jack shit at the moment, other than annoying certain people on twitter/forums (Which in fairness is does pass the day away and more productive than refreshing the transfers thread).

Everyone does it, isn't not just labour people. Go on(But really don't)twitter or the guardian opinion page(Again really don't).

Also polling isn't used as why the centre ground is unpopular(The current american president, brexit and well the rising far right over the world).

Ultimately in such circumstances it's fairly natural for people to point out that the Labour leader who hasn't mounted poll leads for the last four years might be the problem when that tends to be a fairly basic requirement for forming governments, especially when said leader is historically unpopular for someone in opposition. And again - if Labour were completely willing to ignore polls then they'd maybe have a stake to claim here, but that's not the case. Polls are regularly cited and brought up when Corbyn is performing well, and then seen as something volatile to be ignored when he isn't.
What does this have to do with my argument that the next election will not be all about brexit ?

Polls are regularly cited and brought up when Corbyn is performing well, and then seen as something volatile to be ignored when he isn't.
Maybe you've got a lot of people on ignore on here but this isn't the case at all.
 
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i retract every word because uk polling is a total shitshow and the industry should disband
 
Tories would want Corbyn to lead Labour the next 100 years or so. It would be their biggest risk if Corbyn resigns.
 
Tories would want Corbyn to lead Labour the next 100 years or so. It would be their biggest risk if Corbyn resigns.

Not really, because eventually he'd win and he is just about the last person they want as prime minister. They are scared of him, and they should be
 
Not really, because eventually he'd win and he is just about the last person they want as prime minister. They are scared of him, and they should be
Never gonna happen... Even in a coalition probably the precondition of any of the other partners is Corbyn can't be pm

Worst leader of a UK political movement in my time and I'm including raving lord sutch and nick Griffin in my assessment
 


State of our media at present. Sky News find a way to shoehorn anti-Semitism in the Labour Party into a discussion of the shootings in America recently.
 
Have you not listened to any of Swinson's interviews since she was elected leader? Her party policy is not to magically stop Brexit as you seem to think, it is to have a second referendum with the May/Johnson deal as an option. She also said that if the second referendum was to return a majority for Leave again then she would honour that and implement it. Basically, just as Labour are saying they would do only Labour would attempt to negotiate their own version of a deal first.

However the Lib Dems are not on a manifesto to deliver Brexit unlike Tories and Labour, but to block it. So should they gain power in General Election, that's a democratic mandate for Remain. And there wouldn't need be a 2nd referendum because the point of the referendum is a final say on a Brexit deal. And with Lib Dems in power, there wouldn't be a Brexit deal.

This is simply not true and is not congruous with the party's own statements and policies. Their solution to stopping Brexit is to have a second referendum. That is the platform on which they are campaigning. You're suggesting that that policy would suddenly transform into simply revoking Article 50 and ending the whole process if they were to become the largest party. It's wishful thinking on your part. Face it, they have no real solution to stopping Brexit and it's the same as Labour's position only they are less equivocal about the outcome they wish for and would not bother to negotiate their own deal.



Do you now you see how ridiculous the position you were holding was?
 
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So if you're a remainer for whom Brexit is the #1 issue dictating your voting preference in a general election, why would you now opt for Labour over the LibDems?

That's a genuine question btw. I'm curious as to how Labour will attract remain votes away from a party who have now said they support the revocation of Article 50.
 
So if you're a remainer for whom Brexit is the #1 issue dictating your voting preference in a general election, why would you now opt for Labour over the LibDems?

That's a genuine question btw. I'm curious as to how Labour will attract remain votes away from a party who have now said they support the revocation of Article 50.

There’s no difference to before. This was essentially already Lib Dem policy, it just hadn’t been officially in writing anywhere. The Lib Dems have positioned themselves as the Remain party from the start. Everyone already knew this. The Lib Dem manifesto was called “Cancel Brexit” yet somehow bobbymanc argued that Lib Dems would put May’s deal to a People’s Vote if they won power outright. Because they backed a People’s Vote while in opposition. Absurd.

Anyhow, to answer your question... For those that are die-hard remainers above all else, Corbyn’s stance of Brexit unicorns with a referendum at the end, was already a losing one. I don’t think there was a prospect of him winning those over. And while personally I feel that a soft Brexit, as opposed to revocation, might be the best option in terms of national reconciliation...I just don’t trust him on this. His stance is unrealistic (Customs union only, but with veto powers), he is a eurosceptic, he plans to renegotiate from the start which is years of uncertainty.

If his stance had been a genuine soft Brexit, like giving a referendum immediately of WAB vs Remain and if the WAB gets through then signing it and starting negotiations for a Norway-style deal with Single Market access... then I could have supported him. But currently you don’t really know what you’d get from him on Brexit if he was PM.
 
So if you're a remainer for whom Brexit is the #1 issue dictating your voting preference in a general election, why would you now opt for Labour over the LibDems?

That's a genuine question btw. I'm curious as to how Labour will attract remain votes away from a party who have now said they support the revocation of Article 50.
I'm a remainer, but if the option is to remain but go down the route of the Yellow Tories with Jo Swinson, whose voting record is no different to your average Tory frontbencher, then I'll be honest, I'd rather vote for Labour, who while admittedly have a very unclear policy on Brexit, do actually care enough to put in place policies which genuinely help the vulnerable in our society.

Voting for the Lib Dems is essentially a vote for the status quo, and the status quo since 2010 has done nothing for me and my loved ones.
 
I'm a remainer, but if the option is to remain but go down the route of the Yellow Tories with Jo Swinson, whose voting record is no different to your average Tory frontbencher, then I'll be honest, I'd rather vote for Labour, who while admittedly have a very unclear policy on Brexit, do actually care enough to put in place policies which genuinely help the vulnerable in our society.

Voting for the Lib Dems is essentially a vote for the status quo, and the status quo since 2010 has done nothing for me and my loved ones.

I have severe doubts that Corbyn will be able to push through any social reforms whatsoever while Brexit is in the way. If he plans to renegotiate, he’ll be devoting an enormous amount of time, energy and money on this. Basically what’s been happening for 3 years now. How much did May achieve since her election? Sweet fa. So you’re very likely voting for the status who anyway.

And if he does push through with a damaging type of Brexit, then I doubt many of the reforms he wants will be fiscally possible in a recession. Not to mention they’d be unlikely to offset, even for the poorer people, the loses inflicted due to Brexit. And then he will then lose the next elections for the Tories to come in and repeal most of his legislation, while he delivered Brexit for them and became the fall guy.
 
I have severe doubts that Corbyn will be able to push through any social reforms whatsoever while Brexit is in the way. If he plans to renegotiate, he’ll be devoting an enormous amount of time, energy and money on this. Basically what’s been happening for 3 years now. How much did May achieve since her election? Sweet fa. So you’re very likely voting for the status who anyway.

And if he does push through with a damaging type of Brexit, then I doubt many of the reforms he wants will be fiscally possible in a recession. Not to mention they’d be unlikely to offset, even for the poorer people, the loses inflicted due to Brexit. And then he will then lose the next elections for the Tories to come in and repeal most of his legislation, while he delivered Brexit for them and became the fall guy.

What do you think the Lib/Dems will offer the poor.
 
What do you think the Lib/Dems will offer the poor.

In power? Under Swinson? Most probably feck all. The core of the party is largely neoliberals at the moment, so don’t hold your breath. However she does offer revocation which would actually be the best of the options currently on the table.

I also reckon (personal opinion this) that Lib Dems and SNP being kingmakers in a hung parliament they would most certainly back Corbyn rather than BoJo, if Corbyn backs down on Brexit. While their economic policies are definitely more in line with the Tories, they simply can’t form a partnership with that has become the Brexit party. Half their MPs are ex-Labour and the other half are BoJo’s outcasts. And in the core issue of the day Lib Dems and Tories have a the diametrically opposite stance.

So I think voting Lib Dems might mean a Labour government that is forced to take a pro-EU stance in exchange for being allowed to push some of its reforms through (probably the more moderate ones). And that would be the best of both worlds for you. Or maybe I’m dreaming of unicorns now...
 
In power? Under Swinson? Most probably feck all. The core of the party is largely neoliberals at the moment, so don’t hold your breath. However she does offer revocation which would actually be the best of the options currently on the table.

I also reckon (personal opinion this) that Lib Dems and SNP being kingmakers in a hung parliament they would most certainly back Corbyn rather than BoJo, if Corbyn backs down on Brexit. While their economic policies are definitely more in line with the Tories, they simply can’t form a partnership with that has become the Brexit party. Half their MPs are ex-Labour and the other half are BoJo’s outcasts. And in the core issue of the day Lib Dems and Tories have a the diametrically opposite stance.

So I think voting Lib Dems might mean a Labour government that is forced to take a pro-EU stance in exchange for being allowed to push some of its reforms through (probably the more moderate ones). And that would be the best of both worlds for you. Or maybe I’m dreaming of unicorns now...

If the Lib Dems actually care about the welfare of people they need to sit down with Labour about how to not just defeat the Torries but afterwards.

Unfortunately I don't see any light at the end of the tunnel.

What a complete mess.
 
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It's a more clear position than Labours, which as it still stands is a bit of a mess. Negotiate a deal with the EU which they would then put to a referendum and campaign against. Never mind the amount of time that would be needed to renegotiate with the EU and hold a second referendum (and then presumably Article 50 would have to be revoked and then invoked again anyway).

There is no deal to be had that leaves us better off. Brexiteers now don't want a deal as they've been tricked into thinking No Deal is the only option.

Labour should come out in favour of revocation aswell. Make the upcoming election No Deal v Remain, and then we can finally put this sorry chapter to bed, whatever the outcome.
 
It's a more clear position than Labours, which as it still stands is a bit of a mess. Negotiate a deal with the EU which they would then put to a referendum and campaign against. Never mind the amount of time that would be needed to renegotiate with the EU and hold a second referendum (and then presumably Article 50 would have to be revoked and then invoked again anyway).

There is no deal to be had that leaves us better off. Brexiteers now don't want a deal as they've been tricked into thinking No Deal is the only option.

Labour should come out in favour of revocation aswell. Make the upcoming election No Deal v Remain, and then we can finally put this sorry chapter to bed, whatever the outcome.
I partially agree with your last point. Minus the revocation, this could cause a riot. But I believe a second referendum, with more detailed options, would be more effective in resolving this than a GE.

Labour's position seems the best option to me.