I dunno...I miss the days when 'lambs would mock Weaste's claims that 'The PlayStation 27 will have TWELVE disc drives!!!!!! And a sandwich toaster!!!!'
Jeremy Corbyn - Not Not Labour Party(?), not a Communist (BBC)
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In the latest episode of the United Hour Podcast, Nik (@Rood) is joined by CEO Duncan Drasdo and Financial Director Andy Green from the Manchester United Supporters Trust for a special episode on all things behind the scenes at Old Trafford including a brief history of MUST and their aims today, views on INEOS and Sir Jim Ratcliffe so far, and the Old Trafford regeneration.
He literally said - 'Going after business, no matter tiny or huge'. New Labour would have been too much for this guy.
Sensible centrist UK voter - The fact the Labour Party doesn't want to turn Tehran into a dvd bonus scene from Terminator 2, shows Corbyn isn't serious about winning power. And of course lefties will call me a tory for saying as such.
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The problem is that argument has constantly been made in reverse, and is even being made by the very centrists trying to act like they're representative of a grown up Labour party that's long gone on this page of the thread.
If you're going to make that argument then you can't make it without telling the Labour left to fall in to line and vote for a party that doesn't represent them because you're better than the Tories. Whichever side of the debate you fall on the implicit argument is that the other side must do what you want them to because you need their votes.
There are lots of valid issues with Corbyn and Corbyn's running of the Labour party that deserve valid criticism. There are massive concerns about his competency and ability to message, too. Hell there is even one from today, but there are certain issues which need radical solutions in this country because of the damage that the Tories have done. If the Labour party are proposing, at best, to put a sticking plaster over the issue (as they often did under Blair) then nothing will change because the Tories sure as shit aren't going to do it.
In all honesty, I'd argue that Education policy matters so little to most voters that Labour can be as bellicose as they like on the issue. The far bigger story should be the botched Brexit policy.
Yeah I knew I'd get the usual shit for having an opinion and I knew not a single question as to why I think that way. All attack and no reflection.
But hey, I'm clearly a fat cat Tory businessman who never votes Labour and hates all you plebs so I'm going to be ok. You can all melt into insignificance whilst I continue to spend all my millions on my game collection. Oh and I also read the newspapers so BJ is a true leader and Corbyn eats grass and worships trees. It's a wonderful life!
I can't possibly be someone with my own struggles wondering why the people supposed to fight and save us from what's going on, seemingly aren't. And a little bemused as to why that automatically now makes me the enemy
But hey, echo chambers and all that. Wrong place to air my opinions I guess! Back to the entertainment forum with me...
But hey, I'm clearly a fat cat Tory businessman who never votes Labour and hates all you plebs so I'm going to be ok. You can all melt into insignificance whilst I continue to spend all my millions on my game collection. Oh and I also read the newspapers so BJ is a true leader and Corbyn eats grass and worships trees. It's a wonderful life!
I can't possibly be someone with my own struggles wondering why the people supposed to fight and save us from what's going on, seemingly aren't. And a little bemused as to why that automatically now makes me the enemy
But hey, echo chambers and all that. Wrong place to air my opinions I guess! Back to the entertainment forum with me...
Brilliant
I accept that everyone Is asking for votes, but it seems to be peculiar to Momentum that they ask for those of their most likely allies by hurling the red Tory and yellow Tory insults at them first. As this very thread has shown.
It's not just that, it's the fact that we all now have to be one way or we are the enemy.
It doesn't matter how each of us are affected, if you don't toe the line you must be the opposition. How the feck we haven't already learned from what Trump has managed and now BJ is trying, I don't know. There are no questions, there is no dialogue, it's just attempted (and very amateur) ridicule from the off. From the very people who will wonder why there's so many who come out of the woodwork to vote the other way.
I stand to lose everything thanks to Brexit and the cnuts in power. Does that then make me wrong to question those that should be taking charge and leading the way? Obviously so, obviously my attitude is wrong and I shouldn't question anything. I should just shut up and vote Labour and sneer at everyone who dares question.
Labour needs its illusions to be beaten out of it. They need to lose the election badly so there is nowhere for the Corbynites to hide. There is hope for this.
No one said you shouldn't question anything. If you want to talk about electability, Brexit, how labour would put these plans into action etc, then great whatever. But your not, in fact the things you seem to be
Can you image a tory voter saying something similar(Before you get all pissy, I'm not calling you a tory), looking at their party and going - well the tory party is only interested in helping the very rich and no one else in society. Well fecking DUH ! Thats the whole point of the tory party.
Basically your grievances with the Labour party are just odd.
You think Labour should go after all business?
Nah... They are just going to blame people for being too thick to vote for Corbyn or blame red Tories / Blairites... Say it's all down to the right wing media and of course blaming Jews either directly or by implication
They won't get rid of Corbyn till the ehrc report comes out imo as they will need somebody to carry the can... But even then momentum will try and vote in somebody equally bad.
So why is that an acceptable thing to say, but calling people Blairites or red Tories some unacceptable slur?
People are totally free to call us Blairites and red Tories...
They are not free to do all the antisemitic shit they have been hence the ehrc have a formal investigation
We have to define what we mean by ''going after'' . For some on here Labour 10% worker share thing is literally Stalinism and unionised fast food workers on a living wage is one step away from Cuba.
Personally I don't think what Labour are proposing(Be it getting rid of private schools, better union right etc) is anything that should scare people in their dreams. At the moment a Corbyn government if it could get everything it wanted, would simply be upgrading Britain into the 21st century. And even the more ''radical'' stuff like getting rid of the one nuke this country has, a 4 day week and a green new deal(Or a ''Green Industry revolution', shite name I know)isn't terrifying but completely essential to saving the future of the planet.
Its insane that people are losing their minds over the idea of getting rid of the place that gave us Boris Johnstone and David Cameron, when we are literally burning the amazon rainforest.
I suggest you watch the actual footage of that interview and not just read the skewed media coverage it got.
No, you are little a rabbid little dog trying to go at everything that doesn't fit your view.
You never once asked me any question as to why I feel that way, you just went straight on the attack. You even tried to be condescending and when that failed, tried to bring up the fact I often talk about video games on here.
Basically you don't have a clue about me, and in fact I'd wager you have no clue about business either. Especially the situation I find myself in and wondering why I should do everything by the book yet have some angry child on the internet tell me I'm as fair game as the big corps your poster boy certainly won't be going after.
But hey, who am I and what do I know right? I've never voted Labour in my life and certainly never grew up poor and still live hand to mouth right? I don't have family members who need real help, I don't have a child with mental difficulties who I can't get help for, and I haven't recently lost a brother in law to cancer after shoddy treatment right?
I have no right to speak out about the fact Labour in my eyes are letting us down and that it's fecking clear as day they are dodging the big issues and making a mess of dragging these tory cnuts out of power. I have no right to voice my displeasure. I don't know anything about what I'm actually angry about.
No, I'm supposed to shut my mouth and just vote. And then when it fails again and we keep the Tories, I'm supposed to blame everything but myself and Labour for being blind and attack everything else.
You lot who act so pompous need to give your heads a wobble. You don't speak for everyone and you don't even bother to try to understand why a hell of a lot of us are so jaded. The issue isn't that I may vote Tory, as I did that once and once only in all the years I've been able to vote and I regret it. Deeply. It's that I don't blanket trust Labour or anyone else either.
I have my issues just like everyone else. I just don't seem to have anybody who represents them. And I certainly won't just do what I'm told because a few people who can't even seen they are in an echo chamber think it's clever to try to ridicule before even bothering to ask why.
Respond or not, I'm totally done with this thread now. Maybe when the next election is over and you wonder why the polls are so wrong again, maybe spare a thought about why people can't be arsed to justify themselves when all they get is childish labels thrown at them. And it's sad actually because I bet we agree on far more than disagree fundamentaly.
With that being said, a sincere all the best. I really hope things work out for us all. Maybe I'm just being pessamistic eh?
Quite the opposite.
I have.
But that's it isn't it? You kicked your toys out of the pram because I questioned how Labour was ever the party for you, given the views you've expressed, and you responded twice with the far worse accusation that everyone on the left of the party is an anti-semite (and presumably you meant to include me, too, because you were too lazy to look up my views on any of this). Yet you apparently seem unsure of why people who support Corbyn, which to reiterate is not me, feel as bitter towards your side of the party as you do to theirs.
Both of the factions are in the mud flinging shit at each other and both, apparently, lack the awareness to realise they're doing it.
You're also not free to flat out state or imply that that all lefties or Corbyn supporters are antisemitic which you frequently do.
Red Tory is a fairly innocent accusation and trivial compared to the levels you lot stoop.
Good convenient lie though.
Abolishing private schools may be a bit out there but I'd argue there's something to be said for the fact that we've got one of the main parties proposing some genuinely transformative measures in education at a time when it's fairly clear that a lot about our current politics isn't working.
I can understand a lot of the reservations for what it's worth. I've seen some fair points that attempts to equalise all state schools could see more families move into nicer areas near state schools, thereby pricing out poorer people in said areas by driving up house prices. And such a policy would undoubtedly take a lot of work - how it'd be implemented successfully would be another matter.
I'd also worry about potential complacency that could come afterwards. Abolishing state schools is ultimately for nothing if a Labour government doesn't - as a result of doing so - improve state education drastically as a whole. Otherwise all they've done is pull down the standard of overall education.
But there are some fairly compelling arguments for getting rid of private education. However much you aim to improve state education, private school where wealthy elites get privileges others don't are inevitably always going to have certain benefits and luxuries for pupils that state schools won't - in this sense you're probably always going to have a remaining equality barrier to a certain extent.
I could see it being one of those ambitious policies Labour struggle to pursue once they're in power, but if all it does is shift the Overton Window to the left a bit, then I'm not sure that's necessarily a bad thing. Irrespective of whether this (in the end) is a wise social and economic move I think the legitimacy of private schooling is something that warrants extensive discussion.
I can understand a lot of the reservations for what it's worth. I've seen some fair points that attempts to equalise all state schools could see more families move into nicer areas near state schools, thereby pricing out poorer people in said areas by driving up house prices. And such a policy would undoubtedly take a lot of work - how it'd be implemented successfully would be another matter.
I'd also worry about potential complacency that could come afterwards. Abolishing state schools is ultimately for nothing if a Labour government doesn't - as a result of doing so - improve state education drastically as a whole. Otherwise all they've done is pull down the standard of overall education.
But there are some fairly compelling arguments for getting rid of private education. However much you aim to improve state education, private school where wealthy elites get privileges others don't are inevitably always going to have certain benefits and luxuries for pupils that state schools won't - in this sense you're probably always going to have a remaining equality barrier to a certain extent.
I could see it being one of those ambitious policies Labour struggle to pursue once they're in power, but if all it does is shift the Overton Window to the left a bit, then I'm not sure that's necessarily a bad thing. Irrespective of whether this (in the end) is a wise social and economic move I think the legitimacy of private schooling is something that warrants extensive discussion.
I didn't...
I said some would Blame Blairites
Some would maintain a superior attitude and blame the public for being too thick to see jezbollah / comrade Corbyn / the dear leader MK2 for the hero he is
Some will blame the media
Some will blame Israel / jews
Who knows some may even admit Corbyn was unelectable and his brexit fudge is a mess
So evidently I'm not saying all are antesemitic and will blame Jews either by implication or directly... I'm saying there will be a number of reasons though I believe most will blame external factors than accept that standing over on the left and basically pointing to anybody on your right and accusing them of being selfish cnuts is never going to either win people over to your arguments and therefore is electoral suicide
The fact that the ehrc have a formal investigation though is literally independent proof that there is a big problem with antisemitism
The only 2 parties that there has been enough evidence to trigger said formal investigations are the bnp and labour.
It’s not just that they are abolishing them, it is the way they are proposing to do it with what look like asset seizures. That makes me extremely uncomfortable.
I should add, we already have selection by wealth (and religion) in the state system and that strikes me as deeply wrong.
And I’m not sure that removing private schools stops another Cameron or Johnson. It’ll be someone else with wealthy parents who can buy better access through the State system (although interestingly Johnson went to Eton on a scholarship as his parents weren’t rich enough to pay by themselves).
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About 10% of Eton students are on scholarship but I believe this ranges from a few essentially fully funded to some with around a 10% reduction in fees
I would suggest if labour win the election Eton etc would simply transfer all assets outside of UK jurisdiction... I'm pretty sure labour couldn't take the assets the and set up in Switzerland or china or the middle east and await the implosion of labour before transfering back to the UK
Simply a musing on my part but do you extend the abolition of private schools to include private tuition? If not it seems to me that potentially as one door is closed another is left open.
Home schooling as well... Would seem potential for exploitation there
Equally international schools teaching non UK curriculums will these still exist? If so then that's another easy way around it
Probably those that can afford it simply send kids to Switzerland etc ... And I guess that would also circumvent the 7% criteria on unis as well
As for taking assets I think offshoring any investments / land ownership would be a very easy way to avoid that.
Sounds like a lot of the current Labour policies. Pie in the sky and completely unworkable populist rhetoric, to be implemented in an unworkable and divisive fashion; with the obvious dose of hypocrisy.
Personally i don't see an issue with private tuition or really private schools that serve in addition to state schools. These are paid replacements for the additional teaching a parent may do.
It's the institutions that are the problem, even the lesser private schools are pay for grades where they get spoon fed far more than state pupils which is why the difference plateaus at university. It's the paid for entry into university and the elitist class it creates i have issue with.
Saying that i really don't think it's that important of a policy and I'd drop it if it didn't poll well.
What time is the votes today?
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-49789938
looks like there is going to be more disunity over brexit - wonder if any other unions will join with unison... suspect the majority of members will vote to back remain... even momentum breaking with corbyn over this one
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-49789938
looks like there is going to be more disunity over brexit - wonder if any other unions will join with unison... suspect the majority of members will vote to back remain... even momentum breaking with corbyn over this one
How does he wriggle out of this?
He can't this will be the chosen direction. Not sure it changes too much beyond now allowing Boris to paint remain as a Corbyn ploy to stop brexit, which has a bigger influence on the GE than Labour backing remain would have on a referendum (in my opinion).
Let's say Labour win they'll still have to negotiate whatever changes they can get which may not be a lot. Then we have a referendum and say the best deal is remain but here's your alternative. Which is what really would have been said in essence anyway.
They were onto a winner with their pledges to remove charity status and tax reliefs for private schools. Rich got money for fancy private schools? Use their tax money to better the state school system. Few would disagree with it. But that's too simplistic for the purists. Gotta follow it up promises of private asset seizures and the like.
The problem is you wouldn't get any (net) tax money from removing charitable status and adding VAT to private schools. The extra costs involved would reduce the amount of people going to private school and put more pressure on state schools which would outweigh the VAT/CT paid.
However you're correct in that at least that would be a workable and not so hypocritical nonsensical policy.
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If he's referring to the decision on himself then there was a meeting he just never turns up to them. Not that I'd wish to take sides i find them both negative influences.
yup
Lets see how effective Corbyn is at performing policy U turns then...
electorally its 100% the right move I think - better to bleed out support on one side than both... and better to pick the side with less support to loose to start with
Yeah that's my take on private education, tax it so that as well as buying extra privilege for their own children they are buying extra resources other people's too
The net increase or decrease would depend on the levels chosen, but none of us would know for sure until it was tried.