Jeremy Corbyn - Not Not Labour Party(?), not a Communist (BBC)

The net increase or decrease would depend on the levels chosen, but none of us would know for sure until it was tried.

There should be economic modeling before announcing a policy such as this though surely?

Even just thinking about this logically it sounds like it wouldn't come close to paying for itself. Increasing the price of private school education by (presumably) 20% VAT plus maybe 5% on top to account for Corporation Tax would eviscerate a huge number of private schools, most of which are attended by middle class families who have tightened their belts in other areas to provide the best for their children (despite what you'd be lead to believe that all private schools are attended by the offspring of multi millionaires)

It's merely a populist stunt of a policy, similar to Bojo with his 20,000 bobbies.
 
There should be economic modeling before announcing a policy such as this though surely?

Even just thinking about this logically it sounds like it wouldn't come close to paying for itself. Increasing the price of private school education by (presumably) 20% VAT plus maybe 5% on top to account for Corporation Tax would eviscerate a huge number of private schools, most of which are attended by middle class families who have tightened their belts in other areas to provide the best for their children (despite what you'd be lead to believe that all private schools are attended by the offspring of multi millionaires)

It's merely a populist stunt of a policy, similar to Bojo with his 20,000 bobbies.

I'm getting the impression that you're happy for the success of a child to be tied to the wealth of a parent?

If it was politically palatable obviously a better approach would be to increase income tax and use it to fund state schools so there's less of a gap but that would just be attacked from a different angle.
 
There should be economic modeling before announcing a policy such as this though surely?

Even just thinking about this logically it sounds like it wouldn't come close to paying for itself. Increasing the price of private school education by (presumably) 20% VAT plus maybe 5% on top to account for Corporation Tax would eviscerate a huge number of private schools, most of which are attended by middle class families who have tightened their belts in other areas to provide the best for their children (despite what you'd be lead to believe that all private schools are attended by the offspring of multi millionaires)

It's merely a populist stunt of a policy, similar to Bojo with his 20,000 bobbies.

I don't disagree with the concept of economic modelling, but you could also make a lot of businesses profitable if you get them VAT and corporation tax exemptions. It's partly a question of whether it's the ethical thing to be doing to be tax-protecting certain non-essential businesses. Should private healthcare also not have to pay taxes too, while we have the NHS? What about security firms, while we have a Police?

Secondly, a lot of these schools have built massive private assets over time. They could swallow the majority of the tax costs while protecting the net fees paid by the parents, if they were so inclined. Like I said, I agree with doing modelling but I somehow really doubt that modelling would show net drop in tax receipts.
 
I'm getting the impression that you're happy for the success of a child to be tied to the wealth of a parent?

If you want access to the best state schools in say the SE of England, you need a house worth a million or certainly well on the way. In the state system! A lot of left wing people get very agitated about private schools while ignoring a massive unfairness at the heart of the system they prefer.
 
Yeah that's my take on private education, tax it so that as well as buying extra privilege for their own children they are buying extra resources other people's too

They already do. If you send your child to a private school, assuming you are a UK taxpayer, you are paying into the state schooling system as well. Arguably, by paying for resources they aren't using, they are buying extra resources for other people too.
 
If you want access to the best state schools in say the SE of England, you need a house worth a million or certainly well on the way. In the state system! A lot of left wing people get very agitated about private schools while ignoring a massive unfairness at the heart of the system they prefer.

You'll always get variations in performance that's not something that can be absolutely prevented but they do attempt at levelling it and at least funding is roughly even.

Besides you'll always have kids from better areas getting better results as their parents on average assist more in their children's education. There's a correlation causation argument here.
 
I'm getting the impression that you're happy for the success of a child to be tied to the wealth of a parent?

If it was politically palatable obviously a better approach would be to increase income tax and use it to fund state schools so there's less of a gap but that would just be attacked from a different angle.

Less "happy" and more willing to accept that this is an inevitable situation and always will be.

My view is we're already being taxed the maximum of what the UK populace will accept, which is backed up by historic tax to GDP data; so again that isn't really an option (increasing tax from where we are will decrease tax take).

Truthfully I believe private education should be accessible to more people and that the competition of private education if it were accessible to more would drive public education to be better.

For example let's say that it costs £11k per annum to send a child to state school. Imagine a situation where the government offered an education credit of £8k (would have to be calculated to benefit the Exchequer) for parents to send their child wherever they wanted with state schools "costing" the £8k credit. Parents could use that £8k credit and top it up themselves if they wanted to add an extra £5-10k to send privately.

I'd also in tandem allow a low interest non secure loan scheme for parents who couldn't afford it but wanted to invest in education over and above the £8k state school level.

It would be modelled to be a "win-win" for the government. If an extra million students chose private school education the government is "saving" £3k per pupil which would mean a large increase in per pupil spend for those who remain in state education (straight away it would ensure smaller state class sizes)
I don't disagree with the concept of economic modelling, but you could also make a lot of businesses profitable if you get them VAT and corporation tax exemptions. It's partly a question of whether it's the ethical thing to be doing to be tax-protecting certain non-essential businesses. Should private healthcare also not have to pay taxes too, while we have the NHS? What about security firms, while we have a Police?

Secondly, a lot of these schools have built massive private assets over time. They could swallow the majority of the tax costs while protecting the net fees paid by the parents, if they were so inclined. Like I said, I agree with doing modelling but I somehow really doubt that modelling would show net drop in tax receipts.

I don't mean a specific drop in tax receipts. I mean any increase would be more than swallowed by the extra cost of paying for those children to be educated in the state system. Intuitively to me it seems the teachers, support staff etc of teaching those previously privately educated children would outweigh the tax on those who remained in private education.

In terms of charitable status I think both private education and private healthcare save the Exchequer billions. People who pay for state services and also don't use them are fantastic for the country and allow greater spending per patient/pupil for poorer families. In fact I'd go so far as to say if you can afford to relieve this burden on the state then morally you absolutely should.
In the sense that he's only promising to return to the numbers there were before Cameron decimated them you mean?

Pity crime and detection levels have swung the wrong way in between really.

It's populist not because we don't need more money investing in crime prevention... but because 20,000 Police officers is not the best way of achieving a reduction in crime.

If Johnson would have said "we're giving an extra £1.5b per annum to the police to spend how they see fit" that would be fair enough. However forcing them to use it to recruit 20,000 officers, just so he can say at the next election that he's returning to previous policing numbers is... Populist.
 
I don't disagree with the concept of economic modelling, but you could also make a lot of businesses profitable if you get them VAT and corporation tax exemptions. It's partly a question of whether it's the ethical thing to be doing to be tax-protecting certain non-essential businesses. Should private healthcare also not have to pay taxes too, while we have the NHS? What about security firms, while we have a Police?
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funnily enough I think college and university fees are exempt from VAT aren't they?

Unintended consequences etc but will be interesting to see how a tax law is crafted that makes a clear enough delineation as revoke the tax exempt status of private schools yet maintain that of universities - especially one that is free of loopholes and would stand up to close scrutiny in a legal challenge... or perhaps charging VAT on uni fees and nationalizing them is a longer term ambition?
 
You'll always get variations in performance that's not something that can be absolutely prevented but they do attempt at levelling it and at least funding is roughly even.

Besides you'll always have kids from better areas getting better results as their parents on average assist more in their children's education. There's a correlation causation argument here.

My wife was brought up in Maidenhead and had state school class sizes of 16. I was brought up in Staffs and had state school sizes of 34. That's the difference.

Parents often "donated" to her state school as it was far cheaper than private school and allowed the school to run with those class sizes and so was a de facto private school subsidised by the tax payer.
 
You'll always get variations in performance that's not something that can be absolutely prevented but they do attempt at levelling it and at least funding is roughly even.

Besides you'll always have kids from better areas getting better results as their parents on average assist more in their children's education. There's a correlation causation argument here.

A defence of selection by wealth / class that you wouldn't make for other state services... right?
 
funnily enough I think college and university fees are exempt from VAT aren't they?

Unintended consequences etc but will be interesting to see how a tax law is crafted that makes a clear enough delineation as revoke the tax exempt status of private schools yet maintain that of universities - especially one that is free of loopholes and would stand up to close scrutiny in a legal challenge... or perhaps charging VAT on uni fees and nationalizing them is a longer term ambition?

No need, schools and universities are uniform in this. There's private and state schools as there's private and state universities. The different between state schools and state universities is that state schools are fully tax funded whereas state unis are part-tax, part-fee funded.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Category:Private_universities_in_the_United_Kingdom

I would argue that state unis should be free for undergrad degrees, like in much of Europe, since having a skilled debt-free workforce is extremely important for an increasingly skill-based economy. And any profits generated from master's degrees, should feed back into the cost of funding undergrads. Whereas private unis should be paying full corporation taxes, much like private schools.
 
No need, schools and universities are uniform in this. There's private and state schools as there's private and state universities. The different between state schools and state universities is that state schools are fully tax funded whereas state unis are part-tax, part-fee funded.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Category:Private_universities_in_the_United_Kingdom

I would argue that state unis should be free for undergrad degrees, like in much of Europe, since having a skilled debt-free workforce is extremely important for an increasingly skill-based economy. And any profits generated from master's degrees, should feed back into the cost of funding undergrads. Whereas private unis should be paying full corporation taxes, much like private schools.

Not sure thats correct under current VAT rules... there is differences in how unis and state schools operate
As there are additional fees charged to students (paid by a third party) don't they use partial exempt status as education is supposed to be exempt rated for VAT?
https://www.taxation.co.uk/articles/2006-08-10-4306-tuition-fees-and-vat


And here education is exempt from VAT - not education at certain institutions so this would need to be changed
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Value-added_tax_in_the_United_Kingdom

so it really would require some changes in VAT rules - and in my experience most changes brought on in a hurry through HMRC have huge loopholes that accountants and lawyers find very quickly
 
In Finland they used to have a similar sort of school system to ours and they decided to abolish private schools. The changes were very successful there and they've massively narrowed the attainment gap between the rich and the poor. The school system in Finland is now seen as one of the best in the world.

We're not going to fix a very broken system by tinkering around the edges with things like taxation. I don't understand the mindset of things being too tricky or complicated to make big changes... not when it has been done before... and very successfully at that.
 
They already do. If you send your child to a private school, assuming you are a UK taxpayer, you are paying into the state schooling system as well. Arguably, by paying for resources they aren't using, they are buying extra resources for other people too.
Obviously. I tried to word it so I was meaning extra on top of that, but apologies if that wasn't clear.
 
In Finland they used to have a similar sort of school system to ours and they decided to abolish private schools. The changes were very successful there and they've massively narrowed the attainment gap between the rich and the poor. The school system in Finland is now seen as one of the best in the world.

We're not going to fix a very broken system by tinkering around the edges with things like taxation. I don't understand the mindset of things being too tricky or complicated to make big changes... not when it has been done before... and very successfully at that.

I’m by no means an expert on education but no article I’ve ever read explicitly links the success of the Finnish school system with banning privatised schools.

The most quoted reasons for its success are:
1) Non-competition between schools (rankings)
2) Non-standardised testing
3) More playtime and no tests for kids.
4) Very little homework
5) Well paid, well respected, well educated teachers

And those changes happened in a 40 year period, not in a flash. You can always make great changes to the current system without leaping straight into seazing of private assets like it’s a natural reflex. It shows other underlying intents rather than fixing things.

Also bear in mind that Finnish society is very different from ours. Far less urbanised and far more homogeneous. Many inner city schools here are a mess because of how our society overall is structured. Fix that before forcing parents to send their kids there.

Inb4 some claim I blame the immigrants or poor people (the literal victims of the current state) for the failings of inner city schools.
 
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I’m by no means an expert on education but no article I’ve ever read explicitly links the success of the Finnish school system with banning privatised schools.

The most quoted reasons for its success are:
1) Non-competition between schools (rankings)
2) Non-standardised testing
3) More playtime and no tests for kids.
4) Very little homework
5) Well paid, well respected, well educated teachers

And those changes happened in a 40 year period, not in a flash. You can always make great changes to the current system without leaping straight into seazing of private assets like it’s a natural reflex. It shows other underlying intents rather than fixing things.

Also bear in mind that Finnish society is very different from ours. Far less urbanised and far more homogeneous. Many inner city schools here are a mess because of how our society overall is structured. Fix that before forcing parents to send their kids there.

Inb4 some claim I blame the immigrants or poor people (the literal victims of the current state) for the failings of inner city schools.

If you haven't read an article that links the equitable nature of the Finnish school system to its success... I can only assume you haven't read very much about it if I am honest. I am not saying there aren't other factors like the ones you've just mentioned. Although it does amuse me that you have just listed what you call "the most quoted reasons". Where do you get that stat from? I'd like to see the data on 'the most quoted reasons for the success of the Finnish school system'... unless you've just made that up?

I don't have a particularly strong view on the abolishment of private schools if I am honest. I do think something more drastic like that will need to be done though if we are serious about really wanting to close the attainment gap and create a more level playing field for children where ability and not wealth is the main driver of attainment. Just taxing private schools a bit more won't change the fact that many top professions go to an extremely disproportionate number of the privately educated.

Also, I suspect the school standards across the board in this country would likely improve if a lot of the very wealthy people in power had to send their kids to the same schools as everybody else.
 
If you haven't read an article that links the equitable nature of the Finnish school system to its success... I can only assume you haven't read very much about it if I am honest. I am not saying there aren't other factors like the ones you've just mentioned. Although it does amuse me that you have just listed what you call "the most quoted reasons". Where do you get that stat from? I'd like to see the data on 'the most quoted reasons for the success of the Finnish school system'... unless you've just made that up?

It doesn't feel like a subject that merits scientific research for validation, to be honest. Feel free to do a search on google and see what comes up. When I did it, banning private schools didn't come up in any of top 10 articles, while the reasons listed above did.

I mean digging a little deeper, it's actually all bollocks. Finland doesn't even ban private schools.

https://thecornerstoneforteachers.com/12-myths-about-education-in-finland-debunked/

8) There are no private schools in Finland.
A Little of Both. Finland has common legislation for both private (state subsidized) and public (city or state owned) schools. Last year there were 85 private schools in Finland serving approximately 3% of the whole student population.


Just taxing private schools a bit more won't change the fact that many top professions go to an extremely disproportionate number of the privately educated.

Well I am truly shocked that kids from better off families, with better connections and better education end up getting better jobs. Shocked! I even read an article today on the Guardian about how even Oxbridge grads end up earning different money depending on their social class.

Research shows that Oxbridge graduates from more privileged backgrounds earn about £5,000 a year more than those that are less well off
https://www.theguardian.com/comment...sity-upward-mobility-working-class-background

It's an aggregated list of life advantages. And I'm all for helping increase the social mobility of kids by using public money to level the field a bit through offering quality free education to reduce the most egregious injustices. But until the state school offering improves, I'm not for simply banning some of the best schools in the country until then. Raise the floor, don’t lower the ceiling.


Also, I suspect the school standards across the board in this country would likely improve if a lot of the very wealthy people in power had to send their kids to the same schools as everybody else.

I suspect not. Average private school fees are £17k per year.
https://www.independent.co.uk/news/...n-isc-census-parents-term-costs-a8325001.html

A lot, but not obscene or out of reach for many middle class parents. It's not just the very rich who send their kids there. Those seriously wealthy people will, as always, be unaffected and just send their kids to private schools abroad, or international schools, or by moving to an un-affordable postcode near the best state schools, or use one of the dozen loopholes that any system has. And they'll still create Eton-style rich people "ghettos" one way or another.
 
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I don't think this policy is going to survive contact with the electorate, but we will see I suppose.
 
So if you're a leave voter you have no reason to vote Labour, and if you're a remain voter you have no reason to vote Labour.

Great strategy.
 
Worst travesty in this thread is @Redlambs pouring his heart and soul out in the thread with his problems and no one even commiserated with him.

Never worry comrade, I empathize with you.
I read it but given it started "No, you are little a rabbid little dog" I felt it was best avoided.
 
I dont think it will even survive contact with their own MP's

To be honest I think it will, they'll grumble and complain on background to journos but refuse to actually do anything about it.
 
So if you're a leave voter you have no reason to vote Labour, and if you're a remain voter you have no reason to vote Labour.

Great strategy.

Nonsense. Labour is committed to a second referendum. That's as good as you're going to get short of lurching towards a policy of revoking Article 50. What difference does it make to the actual policy if Corbyn personally campaigns on the side of Remain or not? I fully understand why people would be frustrated with that position, myself included, but lets stop with the dramatics. The only realistic chance we have of reversing Brexit is through a Labour government.
 
Nonsense. Labour is committed to a second referendum. That's as good as you're going to get short of lurching towards a policy of revoking Article 50. What difference does it make to the actual policy if Corbyn personally campaigns on the side of Remain or not? I fully understand why people would be frustrated with that position, myself included, but lets stop with the dramatics. The only realistic chance we have of reversing Brexit is through a Labour government.

exactly.
 
I dont think it will even survive contact with their own MP's


...the substance of that 'complaint' makes it clear that the MPs issue is nothing to do with Brexit but Labour's domestic policies. It's the sort of language you'd expect from a Conservative voter. Labour opposes 'success, hard work, intelligence and wealth'. Ridiculous. Whichever MP wrote that has no business being in a party that is supposed to represent the interests of the working class.
 
In before that turns out being a Tom Watson quote.
Don't think that's Watson. That's way too Tory to be him.

EDIT - 50p on Stephen Kinnock.
 
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So if you're a leave voter you have no reason to vote Labour, and if you're a remain voter you have no reason to vote Labour.

Great strategy.

I don't know how they expect to attract votes by not having a clear policy.
 
Also, I suspect the school standards across the board in this country would likely improve if a lot of the very wealthy people in power had to send their kids to the same schools as everybody else.

If private schools were abolished there would be de facto private schools in areas with expensive housing that donated to the local schools to such a degree that it became a private school.

It would do nothing to help the overall quality of state schooling. Unless you mean the overall mean grade would increase because you'd integrate the good private school grades into the mediocre state grades?
 
Dunno about a hundred...
But I could see a chunk doing it en masse
I wish they would but they seem to like people thinking they might, whilst also being appalled at any suggestion they should be deselected. It's nonsense and them leaving the party on their own terms, in one dramatic moment, would be the cleanest way to move past the issue.

Then they can campaign on what they actually stand for and Labour campaigners can campaign for candidates who actually stand for the things they believe in.
 
So if you're a leave voter you have no reason to vote Labour, and if you're a remain voter you have no reason to vote Labour.

Great strategy.
Indeed. Farage is going to tell Leavers again and again that Labour are only pretending to listen to them until after the election, which is obviously true, and many Remainers will switch to the Liberals or Greens as parties that unequivocally back Remain. Another drop in the polls incoming.
 
Nonsense. Labour is committed to a second referendum. That's as good as you're going to get short of lurching towards a policy of revoking Article 50. What difference does it make to the actual policy if Corbyn personally campaigns on the side of Remain or not? I fully understand why people would be frustrated with that position, myself included, but lets stop with the dramatics. The only realistic chance we have of reversing Brexit is through a Labour government.
They don't want a second referendum anymore, because they know they can't win it.

It's Revoke and keep your fingers crossed it's like when your man Doctor Who takes out the main baddie and all their minions fall to earth motionless.
 
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