Jose is making a squad of warriors!

[Listar]

Watford
Chelsea x 2
City (H)
Fenerbahce
Feyenoord

Thanks, forgot about group stages.

 

[Jonno]

Playing him in midfield did not "accommodate" him and people forget he was one of our better players during Van Gaal's first season even though he spent half of it in midfield in attempt to figure out how to play him Falcao and RVP at the same time. And he could have been tough on Rooney behind close doors. There was that famous shouting match between them on the sidelines one match.

I didn't say he was bad in LVG's first season, I said he was in his second season. In the first season he was OK but nothing more than that.

He did accommodate him in midfield in my opinion. He wanted his captain to play every game and tailored a CM role for him to keep him in the team as a result of severely going past his peak as a striker. It wasn't good from LVG. Rooney isn't a midfielder. He can ping the odd pass 50 yards to someone's feet but so can a goalkeeper. It doesn't make him a good midfielder. He has good a good work rate but that doesn't make him a good midfielder. He was out of position, out-thought, and outplayed very often in midfield. He literally looked like a player out of position when he played there. His work rate and passing range would gloss over a striker playing in midfield.

This is coming from a Rooney fan by the way, I've been reluctant to admit he's done for for years. It's only really this season I've admitted it, it's a real shame. It'll never take away from me what he's done for the club over the past 10-12 years.

 

[Keeps It tidy]

I didn't say he was bad in LVG's first season, I said he was in his second season. In the first season he was OK but nothing more than that.

He did accommodate him in midfield in my opinion. He wanted his captain to play every game and tailored a CM role for him to keep him in the team as a result of severely going past his peak as a striker. It wasn't good from LVG. Rooney isn't a midfielder. He can ping the odd pass 50 yards to someone's feet but so can a goalkeeper. It doesn't make him a good midfielder. He has good a good work rate but that doesn't make him a good midfielder. He was out of position, out-thought, and outplayed very often in midfield. He literally looked like a player out of position when he played there. His work rate and passing range would gloss over a striker playing in midfield.

This is coming from a Rooney fan by the way, I've been reluctant to admit he's done for for years. It's only really this season I've admitted it, it's a real shame. It'll never take away from me what he's done for the club over the past 10-12 years.

Putting Rooney in midfield accommodated Falcao if anything.

 

[ivaldo]

Wow, you are special. If you are able to scroll up I'm sure you could understand that I said I'd have kept Schneiderlin or Schweinsteiger ahead of Fellaini last summer. You immediately tried to deflect with some waffle about their 'tough tackling' being the same as Fellaini. Can you enlighten me with examples of when they made two stupid tackles in a minute and then headbutted someone?

Wow, you are special. I asked who you would have played tonight instead of Fellaini and you picked a Chicago Fire player and an Everton player. I didn't think the question was that difficult, though I forgot you don't read English good.

 

[rocks13]

Wow, you are special. I asked who you would have played tonight instead of Fellaini and you picked a Chicago Fire player and an Everton player. I didn't think the question was that difficult, though I forgot you don't read English good.

Goodness me!!!!

If our manager had not got rid of those players and kept the fantastic warrior Fellini then they wouldn't be at others clubs and we wouldn't be reduced to playing Fellaini.

 

[MJJ]

Wow, you are special. I asked who you would have played tonight instead of Fellaini and you picked a Chicago Fire player and an Everton player. I didn't think the question was that difficult, though I forgot you don't read English good.

I think his point, which is pretty obvious, is that mourinho could have kept those two players as part of the squad rather than sidelining them and then selling them.

 

[ivaldo]

Goodness me!!!!

If our manager had not got rid of those players and kept the fantastic warrior Fellini then they wouldn't be at others clubs and we wouldn't be reduced to playing Fellaini.

I asked you a very simple question, who would you have played in his place tonight. How difficult is that to answer? Incredible.

 

[ivaldo]

I think his point, which is pretty obvious, is that mourinho could have kept those two players as part of the squad rather than sidelining them and then selling them.

Then instead of the warrior Fellaini, we would have the 'warrior' Schneiderlin/Schweinsteiger. I've asked him a direct question he has refused to answer, it's not hard. There was no variable to the question, no reference to transfers, of who should have stayed or left. Just a straight up question hes chosen to act like a dick in responding to.

 

[rocks13]

I asked you a very simple question, who would you have played in his place tonight. How difficult is that to answer? Incredible.

I've answered it a number of times. You simply refuse to accept my answer for some reason as other people have pointed out. It's making you look a bit silly.

 

[ivaldo]

I've answered it a number of times. You simply refuse to accept my answer for some reason as other people have pointed out. It's making you look a bit silly.

No you haven't. You've answered your own question, picking two players who aren't available for selection who coincidently wouldn't have made a blind bit of difference in yesterday's performance anyway. Then resulted to name calling when called on it.

 

[Catt]

Goodness me!!!!

If our manager had not got rid of those players and kept the fantastic warrior Fellini then they wouldn't be at others clubs and we wouldn't be reduced to playing Fellaini.

Apparently Schneiderlin wanted to go so he could play regular football.

 

[rocks13]

No you haven't. You've answered your own question, picking two players who aren't available for selection who coincidently wouldn't have made a blind bit of difference in yesterday's performance anyway. Then resulted to name calling when called on it.

You know maybe you're right.

While I'm blaming Fellaini for his stupidity it's probably Mourinho's warrior policy we should be pointing the finger at. We saw the same thing from Herrera at Chelsea so it's fairly clear that in big games these players are sent out to foul the opposition's main players and break up play.

So although as I said earlier that I don't recall Schneiderlin or Schweinsteiger ever being stupid enough to make 2 bookable fouls and headbutt someone in the space of a few minutes who knows what they'd have done under Jose's instructions.

 

[Catt]

@rocks13 I don't remember Herrera or anyone else setting out to foul or break up play against Chelsea just 2 weeks ago, or Arsenal and Spurs. So it's not really as clear cut as you seem to believe.

 

[Adebesi]

It's not humiliation when he criticises a grown man on hundreds of thousands of pounds a week when asked how he is performing. It's the truth and I'm sick of seeing Moyes and LVG come out and wrap our average performing players in cotton wool. It was pathetic and this has been a long time coming.

You're acting like these players are children. They're employed to do a job on outrageous amounts of money.

He will slowly throw the soft lads out and buy players like Bailey

Isnt it funny how in this place every so often you find yourself on the other side of a discussion youve had many times before, arguing against the position you usually hold.

I basically agree with you. Overpaid players, cotton wool wrapping, no sympathy for them, yadda yadda yadda. Agreed.

BUT. People are still human. And giving people bollockings in public is not necessarily the best way to motivate them. As I said to someone else yesterday, this isnt about protecting the player's feelings, this is about acknowledging human nature and making decisions that are most likely to get the most out of the players. In my opinion a private bollocking achieves more than a public one in most cases. And I dont see what the publicity element adds, in terms of motivating the players to be tougher. All its going to do is risk nurturing resentment.

Maybe Im wrong and public dressings down are more motivational than private ones. But that is not my experience. So the publicity element is punitive and counter productive. Therefore, tempting as it is to resort to the "overpaid primadonna" position, I think that's a red herring in this case. Definitely have little sympathy for them in most instances. Definitely they should toughen up. definitely they should put in effort over and above what you or I or anyone else on this forum does at work, and be bloody grateful for it, and piss off if they dont do exactly as Mourinho tells them. But still, these remain actual psychological entities, with minds and emotions that are affected by how they are treated, and it is worth going with the grain in how you treat them, if only because that is how you get your money's worth out of them.

 

[devilish]

Let's sign Ragnar Lothbrok.

we already have Ivar as CB.

 

[Terminator]

Warriors indeed, but quite average at football.

 

[ivaldo]

You know maybe you're right.

While I'm blaming Fellaini for his stupidity it's probably Mourinho's warrior policy we should be pointing the finger at. We saw the same thing from Herrera at Chelsea so it's fairly clear that in big games these players are sent out to foul the opposition's main players and break up play.

So although as I said earlier that I don't recall Schneiderlin or Schweinsteiger ever being stupid enough to make 2 bookable fouls and headbutt someone in the space of a few minutes who knows what they'd have done under Jose's instructions.

In 2015 Schneiderlin admitted to getting sent off against Chelsea because Fabregas annoyed him.

Schneiderlin told French paper L'Equipe: "I got annoyed with Cesc Fabregas because he wouldn't stop talking, he kept doing these little things.

"He made me lose my head and, during one play, I forgot that I was already on a warning, I saw him go down the line and I thought that this was the moment to unleash a little challenge on him. Something that I realise I did stupidly."

And then there was Schweinsteiger getting a 3 match ban for us for elbowing Winston Reid in the face just over a year ago.

So either Jose influenced them before even managing them or they, like Fellaini, fit into your profile of what a 'warrior' is.

 

[rocks13]

In 2015 Schneiderlin admitted to getting sent off against Chelsea because Fabregas annoyed him.

Schneiderlin told French paper L'Equipe: "I got annoyed with Cesc Fabregas because he wouldn't stop talking, he kept doing these little things.

"He made me lose my head and, during one play, I forgot that I was already on a warning, I saw him go down the line and I thought that this was the moment to unleash a little challenge on him. Something that I realise I did stupidly."

And then there was Schweinsteiger getting a 3 match ban for us for elbowing Winston Reid in the face just over a year ago.

So either Jose influenced them before even managing them or they, like Fellaini, fit into your profile of what a 'warrior' is.

Again I can only agree.

If these players have been sent off before in their careers they'd be liabilities under a manager who sent them out in big games with the instruction to foul the opposition's main players and break up play.

 

[ivaldo]

Again I can only agree.

If these players have been sent off before in their careers they'd be liabilities under a manager who sent them out in big games with the instruction to foul the opposition's main players and break up play.

But you said you would have played them instead of Fellaini, criticising Fellaini for having the 'warrior' mindset, despite admitting they both share it.

Vidic yesterday said that Scholes would kick Pogba in training to make him grow up, looks as though Ferguson instilled the same spirit in Scholes and Co as Mourinho is trying to do with our current crop. It's was as much of a cornerstone in the ethos of the greatest ever manager as it is for Jose.

'Scholes was showing the will to win, showing that we were not friends kicking the ball about, but that we trained tough and strong, as if we were in matches. It was: "You kick me and I kick you". We fought every day and didn't need to switch on for a game because we were always switched on.'

 

[rocks13]

But you said you would have played them instead of Fellaini, criticising Fellaini for having the 'warrior' mindset, despite admitting they both share it.

Scholes yesterday said he would've kicked Pogba to make him grow up in training, looks as though Ferguson instilled the same spirit in Scholes and Co as Mourinho is trying to do with our current crop. It's was as much of a cornerstone in the ethos of the greatest ever manager as it is for Jose.

You've made me see the light and revise my opinion.

As you said neither would have influenced the result - they'd simply have been under the same instructions as Fellaini to sit deep as part of three holding midfielder and foul the opposition.

The depressing reality is that this would have been the same regardless of who played instead of Fellaini and will be the same against Spurs and Arsenal. Pogba wouldn't have made a difference. We could have Kroos, Verrati, Modric, a young Xavi instead of Fellaini and it wouldn't have affected how we played.

 

[ivaldo]

You've made me see the light and revise my opinion.

As you said neither would have influenced the result - they'd simply have been under the same instructions as Fellaini to sit deep as part of three holding midfielder and foul the opposition.

The depressing reality is that this would have been the same regardless of who played instead of Fellaini and will be the same against Spurs and Arsenal. Pogba wouldn't have made a difference. We could have Kroos, Verrati, Modric, a young Xavi instead of Fellaini and it wouldn't have affected how we played.

I think we would have still played deep and on the counter, having Pogba would have given us someone who could at least conjured up a moment of brilliance or carried the ball from deep for us, but we shouldnt be relying on him to do that. The game highlights how shallow our depth is in midfield which hopefully Mourinho will address properly next season.

 

[Mihai]

Didn't think this thread was about style - it's about fight, toughness, battling etc. Those are things I'd associate with the managers I mentioned.

Simeone? SAF?

 

[Mihai]

I find it all very tiresome, regularly digging out perfectly fine players so they will run through walls for him. People will pass it off as building a team of warriors or preparing players for the title fight but honestly I think his experiences at Chelsea have just made him overly paranoid.

I can't say I see a great deal of difference between these so called mentally weak players and their renewed versions of themselves, either.

So you think Herrera is the same as last year? Or Rojo?

 

[Mihai]

Humiliation might be a bit of a strong word for it. But I dont see how conveying these messages in public is more effective at toughening up the players than drilling it into them behind closed doors. (Which was the route SAF overwhelmingly preferred.)

Anyway, Ive discussed this to death elsewhere and cant be arsed to get into it again, the point id make in this thread is I agree the players need to be tougher.

Jose probably tried different approach in the beginning. It's not that he started throwing players under the bus as soon as he was appointed, or changed his approach of man management recently.

If you look at his managerial career, he always had hard-working teams, he won't change. Players and fans have to accept that. I actually like this approach, players who get the message know what to do and us United fans know what is happening.

 

[Mihai]

Goodness me!!!!

If our manager had not got rid of those players and kept the fantastic warrior Fellini then they wouldn't be at others clubs and we wouldn't be reduced to playing Fellaini.

Fellaini has been miles better than Morgan or Bastian for United.

 

[shield]

The comparison is OK when we are facing tough matches. But I want to see a few more displays where we are trying to play creative football and not act like warriors. I would not like to see Martial track back time and again to support Darmain even against teams like Everton or Southampton, to get himself branded as a "warrior". I would rather Darmian go up and support Martial to help us score.

I hope "being warriors" does not mean we give up any will to take risks and be creative.

 

[Maccataq]

Criticising players privately or in the dressing room is one thing. Doing it publicly is quite another. If you get it wrong you look like a complete idiot and the players start to mistrust you for airing everything in public.

It's not that it shouldn't be done at all, some players might respond positively to some public criticism. But it seems with Mourinho that almost every complaint he's had with his players he's vented it to the media. Martial, Mkhitaryan, Shaw, Smalling, Jones, his entire strike force.... Mourinho in 8 months has criticised publicly more players than I remember SAF doing in his last 10 years. One can only wonder if it'll backfire at some point. I hope not, but I'm not gonna pretend that I enjoy watching this spectacle that he's putting in front of the media.

I have to admit I've always been uneasy about public criticism but so far it has seemed to get the desired response out of certain players. It wasn't Fergie's style and I think most of us hold up his approach as the benchmark but Mourinho is a good man manager and motivator, he's proven that in his career so far. Everything he does is calculated and well thought out, I don't think he does it in an emotional way which some managers do which is where it can go wrong. The benefit of it is that the fans get an understanding of why a player may not be playing and it sets the tone of what he expects so everyone knows; players, fans, the lot. I also believe that he has tried everything behind the scenes first such as the arm around the shoulder or criticism and so the public criticism comes when he's not getting the desired effect. This then sorts the wheat from the chaff and will evolve the squad into a mentally tough group who play how he wants them to. Crucially, I don't remember too many times where he publicly criticised his players in his successful spells at Chelsea (obviously it was different in his last season at Chelsea), which was because he had a very resilient and effective team full of leaders. I don't think we are quite there yet but i think we'll be a much stronger proposition next season if we acquire the players we need; this may depend on securing CL football.

 

[CM]

So you think Herrera is the same as last year? Or Rojo?

I'm talking about the players who have received criticism from Mourinho before they come back into the team with intangibles 1, 2 and 3 now added to their game.

 

[Adebesi]

I have to admit I've always been uneasy about public criticism but so far it has seemed to get the desired response out of certain players. It wasn't Fergie's style and I think most of us hold up his approach as the benchmark but Mourinho is a good man manager and motivator, he's proven that in his career so far. Everything he does is calculated and well thought out, I don't think he does it in an emotional way which some managers do which is where it can go wrong. The benefit of it is that the fans get an understanding of why a player may not be playing and it sets the tone of what he expects so everyone knows; players, fans, the lot. I also believe that he has tried everything behind the scenes first such as the arm around the shoulder or criticism and so the public criticism comes when he's not getting the desired effect. This then sorts the wheat from the chaff and will evolve the squad into a mentally tough group who play how he wants them to. Crucially, I don't remember too many times where he publicly criticised his players in his successful spells at Chelsea (obviously it was different in his last season at Chelsea), which was because he had a very resilient and effective team full of leaders. I don't think we are quite there yet but i think we'll be a much stronger proposition next season if we acquire the players we need; this may depend on securing CL football.

I think that's a really good point - the bit in bold, but also what you said after it. There's more than one way to skin a cat, (so Im told, not a job I would ever do myself or look to find out too much about.) We'll see whether Mourinho can make it work in the longer term, I hope he can.

 

[Lawman]

I am tired of soft players.
We had players complaining about seeing videos of their mistakes under Van Gaal. Ffs!
Over the past three years,we've had a team that will look for any excuse to lose games.
It's remarkable. I never wanted Mourinho here. But now, I couldn't be happier we brought him.
The mentality of the club had been destroyed.

I wanted Jose here as I suspected he'd change the mentality and you are spot on and once we have more quality mixed with the grit we will be a formidable team.

 

[Mihai]

I'm talking about the players who have received criticism from Mourinho before they come back into the team with intangibles 1, 2 and 3 now added to their game.

Shaw, Martial and Micky?

Two of them already said that they have to work harder, which is only good sign.

The point is that we don't really know what happened behind the scenes before his comments. I am pretty sure that there're talks and Jose resorted to going public as he didn't see any changes. For some it works, for others not so much.

 

[Web of Bissaka]

Not sure if this haven't been posted here yet:

“The group was a nice group, honestly,” Mourinho said, as reported by Sky Sports.

“Good people, good boys, committed people. I think Mr Van Gaal left a good group of boys with very good relations between them and I got that in my hands.

“I think they missed happiness, they missed trust, they missed belief. They missed this extra bit that brings resilience, brings you fight. They have it."

“So next July 9, when we meet again for next season, it’s a stronger group. So the new players when they arrive will find a group more ready to go for big things.

“But the reality is that we are fighting to win the Europa League and we are fighting to try to finish fourth, so let’s go.”

http://www.squawka.com/news/mourinh...an-gaals-good-boys/940468#Pdf6eMgytj419gBF.97

 

[Treble]

You can't win anything big with a squad of warriors. You also need brilliance, imagination, creativity. In other words, you need a balanced squad.

 

[Verminator]

Yesterday was a team of deserters.

 

[red thru&thru]

The players attitude was fantastic yesterday, they just could not do it. Rashford didn't have a good game yesterday but no one can tell me that he never tried!

These players have played half a PL more season than some of our rivals. They've been playing the "Christmas fixture" list almost all of April. It does catch up on you.

 

[M Bison]

Just seems like a bit of an odd thread.

We need balance throughout the squad and based on our current injury crisis, im looking forward to seeing these warriors we now have!

 

[Eli Zee]

Even the Spartans got outnumbered and eventually wiped out..... gotta have depth or an injury free season

 

[Sandikan]

Love that the first game after this thread Shaw limps off on 8mins, Bailly also goes off, and we show the killer instinct of a bunch of nuns

 

[GhastlyHun]

Love that the first game after this thread Shaw limps off on 8mins, Bailly also goes off, and we show the killer instinct of a bunch of nuns

You obviously never encountered a mob of nuns going for the front seats at a papal audience.

 

[tomaldinho1]

He wants to break up the comfort some players seem to have found in not winning. We haven't won the PL in a comparatively long time and you can see some players don't seem to care that much when we lose or drop silly points.

I read an article with Lingard saying Ibra was really annoying because he wants to win everything, even table tennis, and it kind of highlights to mentality Mou wants. Players who demand success at all costs. I think he sees Shaw/Martial as players with potential who are happy to coast along in 3rd gear and that sickens him.