Jose: "There are those who want to be here at any cost and those who suffer with a little pain."

[Santoryo]

There's a lot of that but it's also possible to back him as a manager, while thinking this is a bit off. I would be in that category (although haven't voted, as none of the options really fit how I feel).

I think Mourinho is a good manager and probably the best we could have hired. I'm seeing signs of improvement already - despite the crap results - and am reasonably optimistic he'll get us competitive again, either this season or next. So I'm 100% behind the guy.

But, I'm not a fan of his habit of moaning about individual players (or even small groups of players) to the press. To me, that's not a good way to get everyone pulling in the same direction and could go horribly wrong if things don't turn around on the pitch, sooner rather than later.

I'm of the same mind. I'm fully backing Mou and hoping for his success (God knows I can't take another awful season).

I would normally not have this sort of argument with opposing fans whom I know would only use this to satiate their dislike for the guy and talk nonsense.

Though despite my backing I'll raise an eyebrow when I feel he's playing in dangerous playgrounds(as evidenced by his last 2 sackings due to fallouts with his own players).

I've always hated internal issues being aired in public which is why this just struck a nerve and why Mou has actually annoyed me with his unecessary digs at his own players in public.

 

[Nighteyes]

I would have preferred all this shit to be handled from within but I can't say I'm too bothered. This is only a big issue because it's Jose and because we're not doing too well.

What's incredibly annoying is the sheer number of people who confuse players not playing well on any given day or being off form or simply not being good enough with them being pussies, not mentally strong enough, lacking in passion, not bothered or any number of such cliches. The number of armchair psychologists have gone through the roof on the caf.

 

[Varun]

Well yeah but why is it a surprise. Mourinho has always done this. He does it when things are going well. He does it when they aren't. He used to dedicate an entire section of every interview to slagging off Joe Cole...then also had Joe Cole playing like one of the best players in the league. He also came out and basically claimed all the players he'd signed for Chelsea one year were shite...while he was still managing them.

This is Mourinho. It's not some new aspect of his character. It's always been there. Since day 1.

Its not a surprise, certainly not to me given his past. Doesnt change the fact that it will generate discussion and have people calling it out as the wrong way to do things if they think so.

 

[SATA]

Wow 27 pages already. One of the longest threads in the United forum surely?

 

[kps88]

Wow 27 pages already. One of the longest threads in the United forum surely?

There's a longer one on the first page.

 

[Varun]

I would have preferred all this shit to be handled from within but I can't say I'm too bothered. This is only a big issue because it's Jose and because we're not doing too well.

What's incredibly annoying is the sheer number of people who confuse players not playing well on any given day or being off form or simply not being good enough with them being pussies, not mentally strong enough, lacking in passion, not bothered or any number of such cliches. The number of armchair psychologists have gone through the roof on the caf.

Absolutely. Just see the thread discussing which of our players are mentally strong and which are not. Imagine not even having met these guys or even spoken a word, let alone knowing them well and yet here we are passing judgement on their mentalities. Bonkers.

 

[Santoryo]

But when the press and the fans are out in full force (e.g., in the Mhikitayan case) it is ok for them to do so but not for the manager to publicly say why he did not play him?

Also, there is no guarantee handling stuff private will work. LVG seemed to have tried that.

Name me players who came out and sold out Mou this season.

All of Miki and co have been quite this season and handling things professionally with only positive things to say despite current predicaments.

 

[ti vu]

"The minute a Manchester United player thought he was bigger than the manager, he had to go. I used to say, ‘The moment the manager loses his authority, you don’t have a club. The players will be running it, and then you’re in trouble."

Some of quote from SAF narrative in regarding of his reason to sell Beckham, thinking Beckham let the celebrity life overtake his football side as well as Beckham wouldn't listen to criticism any more instead surround himself with yes man.

Feck me I didn't realise he'd mentioned those three. I don't have a problem with him giving the players a kick up the backside, but don't go and put your trust in players that are patently untrustworthy.
Nobody can rely on Phil Jones - he'll learn that sooner rather than later. Carrick and Rooney have been leading the dressing room all the time this sense of entitlement has festered within it, and LVG trusted them to his detriment. So I hope to God he doesn't repeat that mistake.

I will repeat my pediraoint earlier that Rooney can be selfish in that he wants to play all thee time, which may have bad effect on the team performance as he has been in decline. However, all thee accounts agree that he always give it his all when playing and follow managers' instructions. It's the problem of ability now than commitment. So starting him all the time would be disaster. However, if Rooney understands the reality and being managed game time like Giggs in latter years, then he can offer great impact in certain situation.

Carrick is similar. He just not fit Mourinho's style. Mourinho prefers a stuck in #6 (Xabi Alonso's style is similar, but he's quite dirty too), who can also offer workrate and willing to press. None of these was Carrick strong points when he's younger let alone now. Also, Alonso needs a Khedira to partner him. We don't have anyone that offer similar work rate (in this case, may even need more than) to Khedira's given Carrick's flaw. Carrick when on the field offers his best too. he is not slacking.

Jones is not reliable as solid squad player due to his injury problem, not that he doesn't give a shit when given responsibility.Not a coincidence, SAF, LVG and Mourinho rate him. With LVG he was ready to drop Smalling after the good run in of LVG's first season and install Jones as our first choice CB at the start of his second year (stupid given Jones' injury record. However, raw talent, mentality, football ability: passing the football, distribution... it makes some sense)

Also since Rooney dropped recently, it seems like this issues with the senior players has been settled or they worked out a compromise behind the scene. The problem seem only happen with the younger mentally weak players now.

See this is where the board needed to step in - they are too passive. If Jose didn't think of it, I would have called him and said fine Shaw a month's wages for the comments his brother made. Tell him if it happens again, he'll be found 3 months wages. All of this you deliver in a way that the player understands the manager and club aren't joking around. Warn him again that if it gets into the press, you'll make him pay an even bigger fine. Lay the standards from the top. Then we could have dealt with it internally, and then Shaw would have gotten the message and no doubt wouldn't be making excuses about not up to playing - hence avoiding a public dressing down by Jose.
It's like we allow our managers to come under extreme pressure and just sit back and watch the fall out. The club doesn't help itself, so can't blame Jose in this instance for going nuclear, though of course I hope he understands he can't be doing this all the time. Maybe he should have done what I suggested there. SAF did it all the time, and even gave out fines for things that didn't come close to what Luke's brother did.

The higher ups should not interfere as this is should be solved between the manager and players. However, the board should make sure the players know that they have the manager back and players can't bypass the manager to go to them.

Bypassing the managers were the problem that associated with Real Madrid and Chelsea. These teams have pkayer power problem as well as higher up people who have too much influence in the dressing room while their authority should like else where. Both clubs sack manager frequently. This is far from the model we want and SAF used to run. Sadly we started move to this direction after SAF's retirement, so this needs to be stopped.

 

[We need an rvn]

See this is where the board needed to step in - they are too passive. If Jose didn't think of it, I would have called him and said fine Shaw a month's wages for the comments his brother made. Tell him if it happens again, he'll be found 3 months wages. All of this you deliver in a way that the player understands the manager and club aren't joking around. Warn him again that if it gets into the press, you'll make him pay an even bigger fine. Lay the standards from the top. Then we could have dealt with it internally, and then Shaw would have gotten the message and no doubt wouldn't be making excuses about not up to playing - hence avoiding a public dressing down by Jose.
It's like we allow our managers to come under extreme pressure and just sit back and watch the fall out. The club doesn't help itself, so can't blame Jose in this instance for going nuclear, though of course I hope he understands he can't be doing this all the time. Maybe he should have done what I suggested there. SAF did it all the time, and even gave out fines for things that didn't come close to what Luke's brother did.

you do realise there's a limit to how much you can fine a player though, plus if you fine a player for saying he's injured and doesn't want to risk further injury (and I don't agree at all with Shaw if what he did was true) then you're going to cause all of issues going forward.

 

[whatagoodname]

I would have preferred all this shit to be handled from within but I can't say I'm too bothered. This is only a big issue because it's Jose and because we're not doing too well.

What's incredibly annoying is the sheer number of people who confuse players not playing well on any given day or being off form or simply not being good enough with them being pussies, not mentally strong enough, lacking in passion, not bothered or any number of such cliches. The number of armchair psychologists have gone through the roof on the caf.

Eh. articulated this way better than i could have. the pseudo machoism rhetoric of being soft/pussy/not hard enough is out in force.

 

[Shinehead Dred]

Just as an aside, when did the myth that Ferguson never criticized players in public start? This type of behaviour isn't exclusive to Mourinho, Ferguson done it plenty of times in his career and nobody questioned it.

The reality is this an excuse for the Pro-Mourinho/Anti-Mourinho brigades to face off again. FWIW, if players cant accept criticism (public or not) from their manager and not respond accordingly, then they do not have the temperament to play at the highest level.

True and he even re-criticised them by writing about their "misdeeds" in his autobiographies.

 

[kouroux]

I don't think Mou is saying anything which everyone of us haven't said at some point over the post couple of years that they have been mentally weak and do not have the United attitude. It's time some of these players have been called out. Some of them clearly are putting themselves above the club and they need to go. As for Miki, I totally want him to be given a chance and it just seems there is more to the surface and there must be a reason where he has fallen so much from Mou's grace.

Like you, I think there isn't smoke without fire. Mourinho is witnessing first hand what we have all been watching since SAF's left and it must be pissing him off.

Fair point but I think it's clear that player power has reached a certain level within the club under Moyes and LVG which Mou thinks should not continue. It's actually apparent on the pitch where some of them don't have fight and fold when things get tough. If Mou wants his own players in and to get rid of talented but mentally weak players he should have that perogative. Three years under three different managers and the ship still has not been righted. Maybe it's not just the manager anymore.

Our (psychological) decline is just a proof among many others that SAF was truly outstanding. He had the right players with the right mentality.

 

[Jazz]

you do realise there's a limit to how much you can fine a player though, plus if you fine a player for saying he's injured and doesn't want to risk further injury (and I don't agree at all with Shaw if what he did was true) then you're going to cause all of issues going forward.

No I said fine him for his brother's comments. He has to held responsible and not have his family disrespect the manager. I could hardly have my family members do that to my boss without suffering consequence.

In any case, with regards to fining the player, my example is obviously exaggerated to an extent, but basically I guess I'm saying instil disciplinary measures behind the scenes that will shake up the players, as against going public to get a reaction. Just an alternative method that could probably be used.

 

[Spiersey]

I'm actually surprised he is still shaming players in public. I was convinced he would stop doing it after last season. Will be interesting to see the reaction to it.

There's probably a decent argument for it being an out of date technique given the way modern players are now and how it went at Madrid and Chelsea afgrr hanging players out to dry.

 

[ti vu]

I'm actually surprised he is still shaming players in public. I was convinced he would stop doing it after last season. Will be interesting to see the reaction to it.

There's probably a decent argument for it being an out of date technique given the way modern players are now and how it went at Madrid and Chelsea afgrr hanging players out to dry.

If more clubs share the similar/same strait as Chelsea and Madrid do, then Mourinho should consider retirement. As United, I hope we don't go that way, but to give the manager enough authority like we usually did with SAF. Of course, Mourinho has to earn it.

 

[SirMattBugsby]

Interesting how you are talking about his sacking in his last job, yet you forgot to mention the countless trophies he won before then? << that's a pretty important part you missed out.
Maybe his methods are harsh and in some respects, possibly bad. But Jose was brought in to win trophies. If our players wanted to be treated like darlings, we'd probably have hired a different manager.

The truth is that our club is on a downward spiral, getting top 2 finishes during Fergie, and since he retired, we are a 4th/5th/7th place club. We are in a (comparatively) dire position and as such we need drastic methods to take us back to the top.

And regarding pain and how EU players don't go through pain barrier:
Top sportsmen regularly go through pain, during training and while competing. This is actually normal. If you know about different sports, then should know this already.
I used to be a competitive cyclist so I know that pushing through the pain barrier is a requirement...not optional.
A good example of this was N.Djokovic fighting for the US Open title (earlier this year) - his feet were bleeding, socks full of blood. He is ranked No.1 in the World for this very reason. He fights. (PS. Murray took the No.1 ranking 2 days ago).

So many sports people go through pain, for their sport and you are arguing that this is wrong and is no longer the case?

You're taking this the wrong way! I agree that players, especially the ambitious ones, play through pain and go that extra mile. But in the end, it's the player's choice.

Another factor is whether the player is convinced that risking injury will benefit him. Martial or Mkhitaryan would, imo, do that if the manager in turn appreciates their strengths and gives a role accordingly.

If he's going to ask Martial (who, btw, is a forward playing wide) to man-mark the opposing full-back the entire game, Martial's obvious response during partial fitness would be, "You know what? I don't need to risk it chasing some defender." Same with Smalling (who did play through injury), Shaw (who's returned after a fracture) and Mkhitaryan (who excelled under Tuchel for the same reasons).

If Mourinho does find they are not committed to his cause and tactics, he's free to sell them and buy players of his choice. But right now, he's using those same confrontational tactics which backfired spectacularly at Chelsea.

So while he may have a valid point, he cannot force a player to play and he's not doing any good by complaining to the media. He should take his own advice and play through the 'pain' instead of coming crying to us.

 

[The Mitcher]

Wait, why Smalling? He was playing almost every game once he got match fitness until an injury.

 

[::sonny::]

We have to support Mourinho, or we'll never get out of this

We need to get rid of of all the rotten eggs

Fergie did this with Stam, Keane, Beckham, RvN, Tevez and he won.

http://www.independent.ie/sport/soc...erous-game-at-manchester-united-35194974.html

 

[Lawman]

Only that someone who has never been a pro athlete can ever know what it is like to be one much less what it means to play or not play with pain

Managers who call players out in the press are spineless irrespective of what their resume may reveal but to scapegoat them for not playing through pain? Laughable

Come on FCBarca this is just daft you think you need to have experienced something to talk about it or teach it (never mind having to be a top pro) I'd say Jose is more than qualified to talk about it and that he's no spineless in fact I'd say it's more the players who are spineless. They need to man up and grow a set.

 

[Bobcat]

I would have preferred all this shit to be handled from within but I can't say I'm too bothered. This is only a big issue because it's Jose and because we're not doing too well.

What's incredibly annoying is the sheer number of people who confuse players not playing well on any given day or being off form or simply not being good enough with them being pussies, not mentally strong enough, lacking in passion, not bothered or any number of such cliches. The number of armchair psychologists have gone through the roof on the caf.

This. Also, if this was one of the "nice managers" saying something like this, no one would bat an eyelid, but since it's Mouhrino everyone jumps to the conclusion that hes on the warpath and is criticizing players just for the sake of it.

It wasn't like he went on some huge rant either and publicly humiliated anyone

 

[#07]

I'm actually surprised he is still shaming players in public. I was convinced he would stop doing it after last season. Will be interesting to see the reaction to it.

There's probably a decent argument for it being an out of date technique given the way modern players are now and how it went at Madrid and Chelsea afgrr hanging players out to dry.

Seems its working fine. Both Pogba and Jones made a point of talking about the fact they played with pain in their post-game interviews. Clearly this idea of proving they're warriors is working with certain players. If it doesn't work with the others they will get left behind. Simple as.

At the moment there's a problem with the Man Utd dressing room. In the past few years we have lost the culture Sir Alex created: the manager is no longer more powerful than the players, as Gary Neville noted 'embarrassing' leaks have become all too common, and, again to quote Red Nev, players think they can be 's@@t' and get away with it.

I'm all for Mourinho doing what's needed to rectify this.

 

[Ludens the Red]

I would have preferred all this shit to be handled from within but I can't say I'm too bothered. This is only a big issue because it's Jose and because we're not doing too well.

What's incredibly annoying is the sheer number of people who confuse players not playing well on any given day or being off form or simply not being good enough with them being pussies, not mentally strong enough, lacking in passion, not bothered or any number of such cliches. The number of armchair psychologists have gone through the roof on the caf.

Eh. articulated this way better than i could have. the pseudo machoism rhetoric of being soft/pussy/not hard enough is out in force.

I think when you have a player whose form dramatically dips after such a minor incident of the manager calling you out after a mistake, you're likely dealing with someone who is touchy mentally and is unable to take criticism on the chin.

I also think when you have a player who get his squad number changed, has a public slanging match with his ex gf, who then goes on to sulk and put in half arsed performances, again you have to question that players mental toughness.

Martial and Shaw are two of the biggest talents in our squad, the performances they've put in lately are not those of players having 'off days'. They're performances of players who have gotten into a strop because they're upset about some irrelevant shit and they can't remove it from their heads when they step out onto the pitch and play. That is weak, it's as simple as that, you don't need to be a psychologist to see that.

There's also been numerous matches in the last few years where this side have suffered a set back in a match and have folded like a deck of cards, this is also a side which has an unbelievably bad record of recovering points from losing positions. Of course these things can happen to any team and yeah you could put it off to being off form and having a bad day but when it manifests itself on numerous occasions when you're supposed to be a Manchester United player then yeah you have to ask questions about the players mentality.

 

[ti vu]

You're taking this the wrong way! I agree that players, especially the ambitious ones, play through pain and go that extra mile. But in the end, it's the player's choice.

Another factor is whether the player is convinced that risking injury will benefit him. Martial or Mkhitaryan would, imo, do that if the manager in turn appreciates their strengths and gives a role accordingly.

If he's going to ask Martial (who, btw, is a forward playing wide) to man-mark the opposing full-back the entire game, Martial's obvious response during partial fitness would be, "You know what? I don't need to risk it chasing some defender." Same with Smalling (who did play through injury), Shaw (who's returned after a fracture) and Mkhitaryan (who excelled under Tuchel for the same reasons).

If Mourinho does find they are not committed to his cause and tactics, he's free to sell them and buy players of his choice. But right now, he's using those same confrontational tactics which backfired spectacularly at Chelsea.

So while he may have a valid point, he cannot force a player to play and he's not doing any good by complaining to the media. He should take his own advice and play through the 'pain' instead of coming crying to us.

You missed the part that players abuse their new found power/friend in the press after SAF's retirement. The players think their friends in the press is "us" instead of "them". LVG did try to talk to them behind the closed doors and went about pissing the press. Still the players sided with the press and LVG had enemy from within (part of problem not that LVG was a saint and his method is awesome).

Chelsea model is different than ours. Inter and Porto offers similar thing to him and his method like we used to offer SAF and supposed to offer Mourinho. So the higher up should have known what to expect from his method when hiring him. SAF wouldn't last at Madrid and Chelsea the way those two clubs run given how they sacked their managers under conditions which SAF did suffer at times

Here is more of identifying who are "us" and "them" than crying excuse from the outside.

 

[Galactico]

I absolutely agree with what he said. It was Jose's way of speaking out to all the agents. Now, I don't think he should make a habit of this - he's done it now and that should be enough. I don't want to see this being reported every week or it turns us into a laughing stock.

If you go back a few years, there may not actually be a great deal of difference in quality between the last Fergie team and the current Mourinho one, but I know players like Vidic, Evra, previously Park, Giggs, Fletcher in his prime and many others would run through brick walls every week WITHOUT QUESTION. Name me a handful of players who you know would do that today, week in and out. That's been the major difference for me between Fergie's United and the United of the last 3 years.

 

[#07]

According to Jamie Jackson, Luke Shaw's baffled by Mourinho's criticism. I suppose that explains why he is being criticised.

 

[dove]

So much overreaction here It's quite obvious that some players need criticism. If they can't take it then I have no idea what are they doing at Manchester United. Surely they are used to it as they get lots of criticism on social media every day. They are not babies. Players like Martial, Shaw, Rooney are absolutely shocking this season. Smalling is also very close to it. They deserve the criticism.

 

[clarkydaz]

he said she said played out in public. Awesome

 

[Gandalf Greyhame]

According to Jamie Jackson, Luke Shaw's baffled by Mourinho's criticism. I suppose that explains why he is being criticised.

Oh, I thought the words would be 'angry' and 'confused'.

Written by Jamie Jackson - scrolling through his Twitter feed, the man loves Rooney, and has a previous article debating if Mourinho has hit the 'third season syndrome' at Manchester United, already.

 

[.Rossi]

fecking hell. . .

Shaw must be a soft touch, with the mentality of a child if he's mouthing to Jamie Jackson.

 

[2cents]

 

[MoneyMay]

Nah he needs to grow up. Not in terms of actual performances but his overall mentality, attitude and behaviour. You say yourself he needs to work harder on his weight aspect, how exactly is that not a part of growing up? You're a Manchester United and England player how do you think it's acceptable to be unfit half of the time?

I get that but we already have evidence that he's willing to show the right attitude. Shaw's first season wasn't very good due to the fact he spent most of it injured but he did well whenever he did play. He took a personal trainer with him last summer and that showed in every game he played for us last season. He was selected whenever he was fit by LvG. If his mentality, attitude, and behaviour were problematic, he wouldn't have been first choice.

And again let's go back to this whole brother situation, whilst not entirely his fault, the whole episode was embarrassing and reeked of immaturity.

Honestly, I don't really care too much about this, but fair enough. I can understand why this might upset some people.

There's also the fact he doesn't appear to have gotten over some minor criticism thrown his way by Mourinho after Watford.
It's no coincidence his performances before and after that match have been worlds apart.
The time for being overwhelmed passed two years ago.

Or the fact that he's been out for a year and was probably running on adrenaline for the first couple of games this season? Also, many people seem to conveniently ignore that Shaw was playing injured in the game against Watford, yet he stayed on until the 85th minute. I'm not concerned about his form at the moment. What I'm concerned about is the fact we keep rushing him back and that has led to him producing mediocre performances.

 

[flappyjay]

There's a lot of that but it's also possible to back him as a manager, while thinking this is a bit off. I would be in that category (although haven't voted, as none of the options really fit how I feel).

I think Mourinho is a good manager and probably the best we could have hired. I'm seeing signs of improvement already - despite the crap results - and am reasonably optimistic he'll get us competitive again, either this season or next. So I'm 100% behind the guy.

But, I'm not a fan of his habit of moaning about individual players (or even small groups of players) to the press. To me, that's not a good way to get everyone pulling in the same direction and could go horribly wrong if things don't turn around on the pitch, sooner rather than later.

This, how he does things can end up creating cliques among the squad which is not good for the dressing room

 

[SirMattBugsby]

You missed the part that players abuse their new found power/friend in the press after SAF's retirement. The players think their friends in the press is "us" instead of "them". LVG did try to talk to them behind the closed doors and went about pissing the press. Still the players sided with the press and LVG had enemy from within (part of problem not that LVG was a saint and his method is awesome).

Chelsea model is different than ours. Inter and Porto offers similar thing to him and his method like we used to offer SAF and supposed to offer Mourinho. So the higher up should have known what to expect from his method when hiring him. SAF wouldn't last at Madrid and Chelsea the way those two clubs run given how they sacked their managers under conditions which SAF did suffer at times

Here is more of identifying who are "us" and "them" than crying excuse from the outside.

But then that is the board's fault, isn't it? Each time the players didn't respond to the manager, they sacked the manager. By doing this, they did create a model similar to Chelsea and Madrid.

In any case, going to the press doesn't really help. We already know our club's struggles run deeper than either players or the manager and can't really do anything about it since we are not a fan-owned club.

I hope Mourinho goes and cries in front of Glazers as well as he does in front of us. Then again, maybe he does communicate with the Glazers through the press..

 

[Keeps It tidy]

This, how he does things can end up creating cliques among the squad which is not good for the dressing room

Well doing this at Real was able to unite the players at the club against him(except Arbeola).

 

[Zoo]

 

[RedElf]

Becoming a soap opera.

 

[Skills]

Good on him.

 

[Keeps It tidy]

But then that is the board's fault, isn't it? Each time the players didn't respond to the manager, they sacked the manager. By doing this, they did create a model similar to Chelsea and Madrid.

In any case, going to the press doesn't really help. We already know our club's struggles run deeper than either players or the manager and can't really do anything about it since we are not a fan-owned club.

I hope Mourinho goes and cries in front of Glazers as well as he does in front of us. Then again, maybe he does communicate with the Glazers through the press..

The board started a model of sacking the manager when the club underachieves. Also a policy of spending a lot to fix it. The model most top clubs follow.

 

[horsechoker]

Ferdinand is wrong, Ferguson never criticised his players publicly.

 

[3KDré]

If true, this is ridiculous.