Those are 3 undisputed facts that I never disputed, yes, and I knew it'd tirelessly come back to the trophy argument, but, for me, it isn't all about trophies. For those who aren't in the same boat, fair enough. Nothing wrong with that. Just like there's nothing wrong with me wanting a manager in who can transform the teams playing style so that, in the long run, we're better equipped to compete for titles rather than looking for short term fixes.
Jurgen Klopp Sack Watch
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In the latest episode of the United Hour Podcast, Nik (@Rood) is joined by CEO Duncan Drasdo and Financial Director Andy Green from the Manchester United Supporters Trust for a special episode on all things behind the scenes at Old Trafford including a brief history of MUST and their aims today, views on INEOS and Sir Jim Ratcliffe so far, and the Old Trafford regeneration.
IIRC, it was toward the end of stint where even some part of Dortmund fans couldn't bear the result. He was under pressure. English media had a certain villain they can always take dig so Klopp could distract from the result with his word salad tactic. In Germany, he couldn't get away since, he didn't exactly have worse squadron spent less than majority of the league. Pep Bayern couldn't be accused for style. So that's the war there, but he didn't get the villain tag in Germany that's my view.
This is just speculative at best though? Plus Jose has got us above Klopp and Poch so surely we are getting better equipped for a title? Show me who other than Wenger nowadays in top clubs are long term managers.
Not sure how that works. So the manager after Klopp will play in the same way? What if the manager comes up with different ideas?
If we are also going by what you said, then Jose's Chelsea won lot of titles with same core after his first and second term, his Madrid side won few CL titles and La Liga too.
You need lot of things to fall into place and have some luck to set out teams for long term. It rarely happens.
That’s some bizarre logic right there, in less time Mourinho has gotten his side higher up in the league and has won trophies. Yet somehow the guys who have been at their clubs longer and are below him are “bettter equipped to compete for titles” in the long run.
Makes absolutely zero sense that.
Funny that is, as I may have been the only one to actually call the result...
https://www.redcafe.net/threads/uef...city-v-liverpool.437344/page-19#post-22362361
Are you kidding?
There always was something surprising/funny/unconventional (although not always profound) coming out of his mouth, hence to write/film about. Compare that to a Pep who refused to do interviews at all and gave neutral/technial pressos at most. If you were a pundit, who would you like better? The fecking sun shone out of his ass, according to them.
Its the reason he so often got away with antics other coaches would never have been allowed. Petty feuds with other coaches on the sideline, blaming referees (no matter if the 20th superslomo showed he was wrong and the ref was right), even being downright hostile to some of their colleagues - death sentences for every other coach. Kloppo could do no wrong.
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Not to forget he was a rather popular pundit on one of the two big state TV stations for NT games, during the 2006 World Cup in Germany for example. As @strongwalker says, German media love him, and will love him even more now that he's successful as a German abroad.
He's a very good manager, there is little doubt about that. Personally, I'm not sure that his style will make it possible for him to put a serious challenge for the PL title. He knows how to organise the attacking play but has problems with organising the defence when the opposition is supposed to be inferior and willing to let them have the ball. His approach is at his best against teams lke City, especially at home. But Liverpool will lose many points against weaker teams next season too.
I’m talking ‘on paper’ though. I mean, Karius? Who’d heard of him two years ago... Full backs of Robertson and Alexander-Arnold, with Moreno on the bench. Is Lovren a CB for a top 4 side? So that’s 4 of their back 5 you wouldn’t have expected to see perform like that only a year ago. Robertson was getting relegated with Hull a year ago.
Then their midfield 3 of Oxlade-Chamberlain, Henderson and Milner - again, all the credit to Klopp for that because he’s got performances out of them no one knew were there.
Their only attacker on the bench was Danny Ings...
It’s seriously impressive coaching and management to get such a comparatively under resourced side to compete with a heavily financed, ‘new money’ side.
Wasn't just Ings, Solanke came on in the second half. Liverpool will always be capable of results like this in their current format, but equally capable of following a result like this with a woeful one, last time they beat City they went to Swansea and lost in the next game.
All we can do as fans is speculate! Well, it's all I do. I don't pass off anything I say as fact or the way it should be; it's just my opinion on what I'd like to see. Who knows what will happen next season. We're above them both at the moment but, post Sir Alex, they've finished above us in seasons only to finish below us in the next.
For me, it's not about them staying here for ages - it's about them getting the team to play whatever style of football to a good standard and us working from that base for years to come instead of uprooting our style manager after manager. Again, this is just what I'd like to see; I'm not saying I'm right.
Well, I think Liverpool have a specific way of playing in mind now so they'll probably hire based on the managers style, right? Brendan Rodgers improved the football they played and then they hired Klopp who likes to press and attack like Brendan so, for Klopp, it helped that he was coming into a team that did the things he likes his team to do. Every manage has their own idea on how they want to play so nothing will be exactly the same, but it helps that the fundamental aspects of their style are there, surely.
With ourselves, we've gone from attacking and mainly relying on individual brilliance under Sir Alex's last couple of seasons, to no plan under Moyes, to possession under van Gaal, to...I don't know what under José. I just think we should have a style of play in mind and sign players/hire managers based off that style instead of having to uproot so often.
It's not just about winning titles. It's also how they'd have us playing better football in the long run, too. I don't think it has to be one or the other.
Rodgers and Klopp are very different coaches and Rodgers team didn't press. It was very clear from the first game, Klopp made them press and made them work harder than they ever did.
Same with City, Pellegini, Pep, Mancini have very different styles, didn't stop them winning 3 league titles in last 5-6 years.
Madrid hired Jose, then Benitez and Zidane. All different managers with different way to playing but still Madrid have won a lot.
What you said rarely happens in the game.
Ace.
What do you think will happen in the next leg as you definitely know your shit. Personally I'm more scared now than the first leg which I always thought we'd win. Our midfield is thread bare but Salah may make it.Sanchez
Well last season Klopp got his team higher up the league than Jose and this season isnt over. On top of that, Man United is and was man for man the clearly better team with a lot more money to spend and higher wages. So it is easy to see that it is harder to win trophies for Klopp or Poch.
So equivalent to our striker and second or third choice left winger? Yeah, klopp has spent a lot
You don't get the point but that's ok.So equivalent to our striker and second or third choice left winger? Yeah, klopp has spent a lot
If the point is that klopp and mourinho have spent the same amount and have a similar squad level then yeah, I dont think anybody is getting that.
They finished 8th in 2016. Since then Klopp 1) spent less than Mourinho 2) was forced to sell one of his best players.
The argument that "we did not have Coutinho" is weak. We had a better team. We spent more from a better starting position.
The idea that player sales should be disregarded when assessing how well a manager has done with his resources is absolutely bizarre.
I don't think we had a better side at all. Pre Jose? Not for me.
It doesn't matter how the money is generated. Klopp had a starting eleven that cost 240 odd million v City.
Spurs are a budget side, Liverpool aren't.
Im not saying he isn't doing a good job but when you front 4 cost 135m then he's not a pauper. He can't be.
He took over a Liverpool side who already went on a massive spending spree with the Suarez and Sterling money as well.
Get the begging bowls out lads.
I mean, if you genuinely think that then I am lost for words. If anything, it's post-Mourinho that we're not a better team than Liverpool. Before him we finished ahead of them comfortably twice. Again, they finished EIGHTH in 2016.
240 million? That's Lukaku, Pogba, Martial, Matic and Sanchez, roughly. So yeah, compared to United or City they are still a budget side.
The point is net spend is worthless stat. Horrible purchases can be a plus on a ledger because they fall before an arbitrary cut off point.
We could hire Wenger in the summer and sell Pogba for 30 million which would appear as a plus in his net spend column.
Klopp threw the league in like we did chasing EL. This is a Utd side who finished 7th, 5th and 6th in 4 years.
Think about who we had. Martial? 3 months of Rashford? Rooney? Morgan? Bastian? Depay? Darmian? Blind? Crippled Smalling and Jones? Still a pub player Lingard? Fellaini?
Stop me here when I get to the quality players. I'd say its a tie at best.
Are there any particular pool players who are distorting the data spend like the pogba situation you are describing? Even if you ignore net spend, look at the top five fees or even the players signed under both managers and it will give a clear indication that we are shopping in different markets. We have a midfield of matic and pogba, with sanchez,lukaku in attack. There is no way in hell liverpool can even entice players of that quality.
Except for Pogba who we basically signed due to his history, who are these megastars that we've attracted?
Sanchez maybe?
Just because it works out in one managers favour doesn't mean it isn't flawed. It took a Barca side with gold fever to spend double what anybody else would pay for Coutinho for those numbers to balance in his favour.
He spent 140m odd in January! Lemar was almost a Liverpool player! They could have Kieta and Jorginho / Lemar for a combined 120m behind their front 4 of 135m next season.
Jose:
Pogba: 89 Million
Lukaku: 75 Million
Matic: 35 Million
Bailly: 30 Million
Mkhitaryan: 26-30 Million depends on the source
Liverpool:
VVD: 75 Million
Salah: 37 Million
Mane: 35-37 Million
OX: 35 Million
Wijinaldum: 25 Million
Apart from 1 signing it's almost same. Also for next season they have already spent 60 Million on a midfielder.
Sanchez,Pogba,Lukaku,Matic. None of them would sign for liverpool.
Isnt their net transfer spend something stupid like close to zero since klopp took over? Halve that and he is still competing with us with a joke of a defence and 50 odd mil net spend.
Thats true, quality of player is signficantly different though. Still dont get those two fees.
Theres that net spend again.
If Jose sold DDG for 120m tomorrow would he become a shrewd operator overnight?
I think Klopp could sign Matic or Lukaku if he was at a non rival. Why not? They're signing Kieta from Germanys second best side, Salah from Italys second best. Heavily linked with Werner (sp)
Nearly signed Lemar from the actual champions of France.
I think next summer is funded by Coutinho, I don't think the previous 3 years can be written off with one reluctant sale that was never planned from 2 months ago.
Thats all.
If he sells DDG for 120m and promotes romero without our play suffering, then yes I would give him credit for it. It would be stupid not to really.
That sounds a lot more impressive than saying they signed keita from RBL(currently fourth by a point) and Salah from roma(no where near second best this year). Reduce coutinho's value to 90m and even then his transfer spend is ridiculously low.
So now it's not just City who were better than us but even fecking Liverpool might have been. Jesus.
Just for reference: Liverpool's squad from that season.
Not sure why you are so adamantly against net spend as a metric. The caf's attitude towards it always seemed odd to me. Surely if a club has to sell its best player to be able to spend as much as another club that does not sell its best players then that's relevant?
If two teams finish level on points and then spend exactly the same amount but one of them has to sell three of their best players to fund that spending then the expectations cannot be the same, can they?
I think it stems back to the days of Rafa when Liverpool fans would celebrate having a lower net spend as if it were equivalent to silverware.
I think there's also the attitude that seems to equate a low net spend with being good at negotiating, rather than consistently losing your best players because they don't want to stay.
I'm also not convinced that expenditure should dictate expectations, otherwise you may as well hand out the league title at the end of the transfer window to the team that spent the most because no one else would be expecting to win.
Certainly doesn't stop United fans from downplaying City/Pep's acheivements, and defending Jose, because they spent a lot of money.
There's obviously a correlation, but it's not the be all and end all as it's often made out to be. In general, you expect the higher spending clubs to do better than the lower spending clubs, and in general, that's what happens. However, clubs like Spurs and Liverpool, that don't match United and City for net spend, still expect to be challenging United and City. Net spend only rears its head, as you've just pointed out, when there's perhaps a feeling of the team under-performing. It's a convenient and logical fall-back when the team(s) above you spent a lot more.
That said, I think the Pep argument is somewhat separate, and relates more to the fact that every club management job he's had has seen him take charge of a an already very strong squad and be given near infinite sums of cash to further improve it.
Expenditure might not dictate expectations but it certainly has an impact on them. There are other factors to take into consideration, certainly, but financial strength is the best way to gauge what can be considered to be reasonable expectations. Sure, every once in a while a Leicester City wins the league - but they certainly aren't expected to repeat that achievement.
No, but there's also a vast difference between Liverpool and Leicester. As I said, they correlate, but I find arguments surrounding net spend tend to make out as if it's the only important factor. We've seen enough times (United included) that just throwing money at a team doesn't necessarily lead to success, and at a certain level (in which I would include the entire top 6) spending isn't the key difference between where a team is.
Ace.
Still a bit too distant to call! I'd rest easy and enjoy the game though, as Liverpool's not chucking a 3 goal lead away.
I actually think today's games are probably a bit more interesting and could have a bearing on Tuesday's game? The Merseyside Derby is pretty important for Liverpool (with them chasing top 4). Could see a draw in that or Liverpool nicking it with a dodgy decision. Got a funny feeling Utd might really show up for the Derby and spoil Pep's party
Be nice to see a mini crisis at City, but then their response would have to be brutal on Tuesday. What do you reckon?
Still a bit too distant to call! I'd rest easy and enjoy the game though, as Liverpool's not chucking a 3 goal lead away.
I actually think today's games are probably a bit more interesting and could have a bearing on Tuesday's game? The Merseyside Derby is pretty important for Liverpool (with them chasing top 4). Could see a draw in that or Liverpool nicking it with a dodgy decision. Got a funny feeling Utd might really show up for the Derby and spoil Pep's party
Be nice to see a mini crisis at City, but then their response would have to be brutal on Tuesday. What do you reckon?
Today is kind of weird. I want to win but I don't want us to play any senior players as it's just not important enough. Seems like Lovren, VvD, Gini, Mane and Milner are going to start. Today won't decide our top four fate as I think/hope Chelsea will mess up somewhere.
City fans are probably in more of a quandary. They want to go through but almost feel like it's too difficult and want to make up for that 'pain' by collecting the PL under Utd fans' noses. Yet, it's not their primary concern either. With all due respect today means more to Everton and Utd, ergo the latter may very well spoil Pep's party.
If someone like Mane picks up an injury it will be City's big chance on Tuesday.
Saying that, I'd expect Klopp to pretty much go full strength and not take the league lightly.
Without Salah and possibly Mane on the bench, it'll be a grind, albeit a winnable grind.
I just want to see United attack City from the off. This game could be made for Sanchez, providing Mourinho doesn't bottle it with moody, defensive, tactics.
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