So sounds like you agree that your original point, that unless you vote Labour you’re not entitled to complain about the Tories, was a bit daft. It also assumes that only through parliament can any change be achieved. There’s plenty of other ways of shifting the agenda and policy debate, in fact often they can be more effective. It’s a deliberate tactic of the establishment to try and channel all pressure through parliament and suggest that’s the only way to achieve change, it shouldn’t be repeated by people on the left.
Keir Starmer Labour Leader
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So sounds like you agree that your original point, that unless you vote Labour you’re not entitled to complain about the Tories, was a bit daft. It also assumes that only through parliament can any change be achieved. There’s plenty of other ways of shifting the agenda and policy debate, in fact often they can be more effective. It’s a deliberate tactic of the establishment to try and channel all pressure through parliament and suggest that’s the only way to achieve change, it shouldn’t be repeated by people on the left.
It's a tough problem, and a longstanding one, one that even the previous leadership went conservative on by saying we needed to leave the single market to control immigration. The post-election review Labour put together was actually pretty good, so I'll base my judgement on Starmer in how the party under his leadership responds to the issues raised in that by the next election.
I was assuming people were in a seat where it was a Labour-Tory choice with my original comment. Obviously if not then it’s not relevant.
As for channeling through parliament though, sure you can achieve a lot at grassroots level but ultimately parliament is where the big stuff is going to either happen or not happen. And the longer the Tories hold it, the harder change will become as they change the laws and rules to suit themselves.
That’s my position too really, re Starmer. He’s analytical and smart and I just want to give him a few years to see how he deals with these incredibly challenging internal issues. I’m just frustrated by all the people attacking him from the left right from the starting line. I’m from the left too, and it just strikes me as self-defeating. If in 2 years he is failing then let’s see about a change, but when someone is faced with the uphill battle he’s facing, he deserves some time to formulate a strategy and actually implement it.
Give the guy a chance.
How long has he been leader.
Quite honestly, I felt pretty much the same about Labour under Corbyn.
He and the shambolic policies literally thrown together at the last election impressed no one. And hence the awful outcome.
We have to be realistic. England and the wider UK does not want to elect a Labour party based upon Corbyn style policies. That is a fact, plain and simple.
So Starmer cannot and will not repeat those mistakes.
As I said. Give the guy a chance.
His policies were popular by the public. You might have not liked them, but they were popular
I think people are overestimating what any future Labour government could do in power and vastly underestimating the scale of the crisis we are facing.
He will get a chance... and I will be happy if he changes my opinion of him. It's been about 6 months so far and whilst that isn't very long... he's getting an awful lot wrong from my own perspective.
The awful outcome at the last election was largely down to Brexit. There were over 400 'leave' constituencies compared to about 242 'remain'. I genuinely don't believe it would have been possible for Labour to win the last election regardless of who was in charge. Obviously the battering Corbyn took over the years from the media was hardly going to help. I think it's easy to blame his economic policy but I am more convinced that your average voter tends to vote for cultural reasons over economics... as Brexit probably demonstrated quite well.
I notice that Pledge No. 6 is looking particularly laughable this evening.
… what are they actually advocating here
Maybe it would help if you posted the whole quote?
Is that why Labour had such a kicking in December?
Wrong.
The reason was perfectly clear. Jeremy Corbyn was extremely unpopular with the electorate.
Yes of course the Tory media helped in that unpopularity.
But putting it bluntly, Labour were never going to win an election while he was leader. And 2 elections proved that.
In the space of pressing Send on post one you went from saying the policies weren't popular to the election defeat being down to Corbyn.
The policies were so unpopular that Sir Keith had to pretend to support them. Right up until he was recording his acceptance speech.
The policies were so unpopular that Sir Keith had to pretend to support them. Right up until he was recording his acceptance speech.
Looking at the responses it appears the gammon aren't won over. Which is the issue with pandering to this lot.
Someone should remind Starmer of the platform he stood on.
We've been over this subject so much in here - there were a lot of factors behind the scale of the loss and dislike of left-wing economic policy was nowhere near the top of that list.
Based on what?
The evidence. Myself and other posters have done this to death on here before though and it never really changes anyone’s opinion.
This is true.
Especially after constituency boundary changes are implemented and 5 years of unchallenged Tory polices with a right wing media.
This is before even looking at the digital marketing measures used by Cummings to drive the Brexit vote and the recent GE election. Which now have a much larger government subsidised budget under the guide of coronavirus spending.
Think 1930s Germany combined with Brave New World technology.
So just an opinion...
This is true.
Especially after constituency boundary changes are implemented and 5 years of unchallenged Tory polices with a right wing media.
This is before even looking at the digital marketing measures used by Cummings to drive the Brexit vote and the recent GE election. Which now have a much larger government subsidised budget under the guide of coronavirus spending.
Think 1930s Germany combined with Brave New World technology.
So why the feck are we stabbing ourselves in the foot? Let's just get the less evil Keith guy in power yeah?
Rising sea levels don't care that Starmer is the lesser of two evils.
Typical left wing policies can be popular because they are about spending more on public services.
But there is a world of difference between popular policies and who people feel will run the country better.
Cheers. Let's just bicker among ourselves and get Boris elected. That'll show them rising sea levels
There is also a world of difference between agreeing in principle that we should invest more in health/education/public transport etc and agreeing as to the specifics of how that investment should be funded. In my lifetime, Labour has never been able to persuade a sufficient portion of the population of the case for higher taxes. Blair managed a cake and eat it approach as the UK recorded consistent and strong economic throughout his premiership but obviously that option is off the table and unlikely to return any time soon.
Policy and delivery of policy are two separate things, which is my point about power. It's great having the ideas, but utterly pointless if you can't put them into action.
This isn't a thing. Look at the both the 2019 election(In particular the Kensington seat) and the Labour leaks.
There is no liberal + left coalition.
Ok, be a douche and sit out then? I don't know how to phrase that scenario tbh.. I just find it weird that you want to save the dying environment and not vote for the party that at least takes it seriously than the other evil guys. I mean, it's not ideal that there is only a lesser evil to choose from but at least then own your douchebaggery
You're not still buying the 10 pledges are you?
That is exactly the problem isn't it.
When Labour propose public services spending, the first question asked is about affordability. Magic money tree etc.
When the Tories do the same, people just accept it.
But hopefully, the covid spend spend spend might just make people question them more.
At the end of the day, it is all about trust.
And Starmer must make Labour far more trustworthy than ever before. Which is why he has a delicate balancing act. And pitching his policies closer to the centre is totally necessary, whether some like it or not.
I don't know them tbh
Don't worry, neither does the bloke who made them.
He is so electable it would be impossible to stop him.
On a more serious note, I'm only airing my concerns in this thread. Not saying I would opt out of the next election. I just have zero faith that he would fight for normal working people over anything else if elected. Doesn't mean he would be worse than the corrupt Tories.
We'll have to wait until the next manifesto but just going off the past history of the "centre left", they don't take it seriously at all. Yes they believe it's happening which is better than the other guys but they aren't interested in challenging the causes of climate change(Because that would require fundamental changes to capitalism). Yes it's better to acknowledge the ship has hit the ice berg but that's not going to stop the ship from sinking.
As for what to do or just sitting out, I honestly don't know. The only reason we had decent social democracy in the Labour party was because the centre left lost in 2015(I voted for "red ed") but more importantly covid has basically proven the socialist critique of neoliberlism to be correct but also shown socialists to be massively out of date.
Even if we pretend and say Starmer runs on the 2019 manifesto and then somehow wins(Putting aside the number of both state and international institutions that would stop any policy), it's still not enough. National universal healthcare isn't enough there's has to something more, national plans on climate change isn't enough, even giant members states like the EU or NATO will be roadblocks to any real change, etc etc. We need something towards a transformation of our political economy
Granted it's a bit on "brand" but there's needs to communist movement but you can't just will these things into happening, sadly.
If you’re in a sinking ship I wouldn’t call anyone a douchebag for refusing to choose between bailing out with a colander or bailing it out with a sieve.
Do you want revolution? You can be my Trotsky.