The question is a patronising one though. If someone's argument is BS you're more than capable of destroying it through fact and reason, without the personal slights.
Keir Starmer Labour Leader
- Thread starter Damien
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In the latest episode of the United Hour Podcast, Nik (@Rood) is joined by CEO Duncan Drasdo and Financial Director Andy Green from the Manchester United Supporters Trust for a special episode on all things behind the scenes at Old Trafford including a brief history of MUST and their aims today, views on INEOS and Sir Jim Ratcliffe so far, and the Old Trafford regeneration.
Fascinating.
"A New Leadership". So inspiring.
Well if it draws a line under the complete disaster that was the Corbyn leadership then it is fine by me.
It also helped create the "disaster" by design. But carry on.
As much as the Corbynites on here hate Starmer he does need to try and convey to the electorate that this is a clean break from Corbyn and that the party is under a new and different leadership. Whether that message will resonate we will have to wait and see. But Corbyn and Leadership was cited as the biggest reason for not voting Labour at the last election and so this move makes sense.
That disaster, as measured by the scale of the election defeat was totally self inflicted.
I wouldn't describe myself as a Corbynite; I found his leadership severely lacking on Brexit and anti-semitism, to name just two issues. However, I did agree with a lot of Labour 's policies under him.As much as the Corbynites on here hate Starmer he does need to try and convey to the electorate that this is a clean break from Corbyn and that the party is under a new and different leadership. Whether that message will resonate we will have to wait and see. But Corbyn and Leadership was cited as the biggest reason for not voting Labour at the last election and so this move makes sense.
I suppose I'm wondering, can a leader like Starmer who I have been relatively impressed with so far, steer Labour to power but broadly keeping these policies? He's obviously bringing Labour back towards the centre but how far does he have to go?
The Observer/Guardian celebrating the potential return of multi-millionaire, off-shore tax avoiding, cash-for-honours implicated property developers to the Labour fold. Happy to have their party back I guess.https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2020/sep/19/sir-david-garrard-quit-labour-antisemitism-rejoin
So glad to have effective opposition back
Maybe the secret strategy is to kill off enough elderly voters to win back marginals.
Maybe the secret strategy is to kill off enough elderly voters to win back marginals.
There’s not an election for 4 years. One of the issues with opposition is they often object to everything, and it loses any impact.
Good opposition is when you say on the BBC’s keystone political programme that you will support the prime minister whatever he proposes, without knowing what that will be
The clip was cut off mid sentence. Would be interesting to see what he actually said, rather than a selective sound bite.
Starmer and his front bench are far more credible than labour had under Corbyn.
it’s on iPlayer. He literally repeatedly says that whatever measures the government brings in, even though he doesn’t know what they will be, he will support.
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-54225281
Just an article on the interview that has been referenced this morning. I don't personally see anything particularly controversial.
Just an article on the interview that has been referenced this morning. I don't personally see anything particularly controversial.
The centre "left"
Great.
Don't get much choice after December the 31st.
Keir Starmer appeals to patriotism in Labour conference speech
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-54241844
Vote Labour, get UKIP.
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-54241844
Vote Labour, get UKIP.
https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2020/sep/19/sir-david-garrard-quit-labour-antisemitism-rejoin
From those quotes it seems to be more about Labours position on palestine and Israel. Not particularly helpful statements really.
It's fecking amazing if suddenly there's no anti-semtism complaints and they're all being handled quicker. Any evidence of that?
As someone who has pretty much always voted labour (though I did vote LibDem in 2010) I'm getting really frustrated with how unproductive Starmer leadership. Its basically stand on the sidelines and criticise everything without offering a single practical alternative. If you're going to criticise offer alternatives if you havn't got any then shut the F**k up and let someone lead who has!
I think Boris is an absolute bumbling Idiot, but I have absolutely no faith Starmer or any other UK politician would do any better right now as they're all so obsessed with criticising what someone else is doing without offering any solutions! Namely, because there isn't any! It just picking between bad decisions and trying to get an ignorant populous to comply!
I think Boris is an absolute bumbling Idiot, but I have absolutely no faith Starmer or any other UK politician would do any better right now as they're all so obsessed with criticising what someone else is doing without offering any solutions! Namely, because there isn't any! It just picking between bad decisions and trying to get an ignorant populous to comply!
The centre "left'
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I think that's a laughable take, in all honesty. I'm not at all sure how one could realistically come to that.
If Starmer has had problems it's that he's far to quick to agree with disastrous government policy in the pursuit of appearing conciliatory during the pandemic. If that level of criticism is too much for you, and you generally believe that Boris is doing the best job any one could (
) I suspect you're simply looking for proxies to justify letting your team off the hook for how badly they've bungled it.Whomst could have predicted that. It's kind of sad how easily taken in the Labour membership were. These aren't the policies they want, but the right is back in control and will make sure they stitch up party democracy so that 2016 cannot happen ever again.
I think that's a laughable take, in all honesty. I'm not at all sure how one could realistically come to that.
If Starmer has had problems it's that he's far to quick to agree with disastrous government policy in the pursuit of appearing conciliatory during the pandemic. If that level of criticism is too much for you, and you generally believe that Boris is doing the best job any one could (
I think it's an important perspective, because if you look on Twitter it is a common theme amongst right-wing critics of Starmer (I'm not saying this poster is right-wing, just that one doesn't have to go far to find people saying 'all Starmer does is criticise'). Which kind of makes you wonder what the point in not actually criticising the government is. Can it be a successful strategy to support everything the government does, if you are still going to have the people who oppose you claim that you are doing the opposite.
The best analogy for this is the US situation, where everything left of the republicans is decried as socialism, at which point you might as well just actually offer socialism.
I have no idea how you come to the opposite. He just stands there and says and goes this policy is going to cause this problem, without offering a single practical bit of advice.I think that's a laughable take, in all honesty. I'm not at all sure how one could realistically come to that.
If Starmer has had problems it's that he's far to quick to agree with disastrous government policy in the pursuit of appearing conciliatory during the pandemic. If that level of criticism is too much for you, and you generally believe that Boris is doing the best job any one could (
And no i think Boris is doing an awful job, flip-flopping between ideas every 20 seconds so everything is an utter mess. But I want to feel that the opposition would be different, but nothing that has come out of Starmers mouth makes me think he would be any better, other then he wouldn't be a tory, which i suppose is somthing.
He spent his weekend telling interviewers that he'd support whatever the government proposed on Covid, before they'd said a thing.
The Labour membership were taken in by Corbyn and his merry band. There is literally no point in writing a load of socialistdreamtopia policies in a manifesto when you have no chance of winning an election or implementing them.
I'm glad to see Labour slowly trying to get back to being a serious party. We badly need it as a country because the tories are fecking us.
And there's literally no point winning an election or supporting a Labour Party that has no policies, and is sketching incredibly close to 'blood and soil'
Do you think the country would have been better over the last 40 years if we'd had a period of uninterrupted Tory rule? I can't take that nonsense seriously.
I feel like I’m in the minority who really likes Kier so far, I think Labour have to have a broader appeal to win back their voters. He seems to be polling pretty well to be fair to him. Really enjoyed his speech today, but I’m sure someone will rip me apart for saying this.
That could actually work.
I think that’s fine. People have different politics, and find different things appealing.
edit: sorry if that sounds patronising. It’s not meant to. I can see how Starmer seems professional and competent in a way that neither Johnson or Corbyn did. Corbyn was a flawed figurehead for the policy programme in a lot of ways.
But just as Corbynism turned away some voters, the Labour centre (I’m talking about the party figures and the media commentators here) can’t just pretend that they can start spouting “family, security” and “putting Britain first” - in a country which only recently starved a nurse to death because of her asylum status - and it not turn off further left voters. After putting Labour in a lose, lose electoral position over Brexit the same people think they just turn up the nationalism dial and that won’t have a similar effect.
As I’ve said in this thread before, one could just about swallow it if it felt like a cynical attempt to enact pretty radical policies. But today they’ve abandoned higher taxes on the wealthiest and public ownership of utilities, so it definitely isn’t that.
As a Starmer critic who nevertheless voted for him in the leadership, I thought the speech was a mixed bag. Was glad to see positive arguments about public spending in a couple of the key clips, and strong linking of Tory cuts to the struggle we're having with COVID. Equally I was glad to see him unequivocally put an end to talk of second referendums (I wish he'd have been as conciliatory on that point prior to the election).
On the other hand, all this patriotic guff coming from them today is deeply disappointing and confirms the worst fears of many of us on the left. It's a repetition of one of the greatest failings of the Blair/Brown/Milliband era - ceding the argument on immigration and Britain's relationship with the world to Little Englanders instead of making strong arguments for 'internationalism' (for lack of a better word). The last 10 years is a perfect case study of what happens to a country where the 'left' party in a two-party system has spent the last 10 years aping the rhetoric of the right. It's like a see-saw where one of the kids has decided to sit square in the middle.
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Yeah that’s a fair criticism, I guess maybe they have conceded too much? But at the same time people want to hear this patriotic rubbish for some reason, and maybe it’s the answer to get some voters back onside even if it is a bunch of rubbish.
It's precisely this that worries me however. As the narrative drifts to right to appease the voters you want to get back onside it actually shifts the political centre. It's the death of the left by a thousand cuts and it's been going on for decades.