Keir Starmer Labour Leader

Pogue Mahone said:
Yeah, let’s cut the Tories some slack because of the nightmare Brexit turned out to be.

Oh wait…
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That made me chuckle. Credit to them for having to deal with Brexit during a pandemic. That must have been really hard for them. Possibly even as hard as the decision they made to not delay Brexit during the pandemic? I don’t know it’s a tough one to balance.
 
Shamwow said:
Ugh. People who argue like that make me want to bang my head against a wall.

I'm taking about you in case it isn't clear.
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Ah, see little woke fellow. Take your planet saving, good hearted, carbon neutral argument back to Twitter because I have you on a scientific technicality that actually demonstrates that I am in fact, much smarter than you.
 
vidic blood & sand said:
Well I could have fun flicking through the brexit thread in 2016 and chuckle to myself reading about doom we should have experienced, but I don't want to embarrass you.
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How’s the fishing industry looking?
 
vidic blood & sand said:
You're still just sour over brexit.
Get over it!
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The Tories have marshalled their messages excellently. Also very few people are international trade experts and the impact from Brexit will be a loss of growth rather than an economic downturn. It is much more difficult to be negatively impacted by economic growth which is less than expected than by a recession.

Added to that the pandemic has masked a lot of the issues with Brexit, and has provided a convenient explanation politically for any issues faced over the next couple of years. But that's politics and they are playing the conditions very well. It has been helped by Labour not having a coherent vision yet too.
 
Jezpeza said:
Like the 18 year old fool in the local boozer who lectured me about all the ‘carbon we create’ then said i was clueless c**t for pointing out we cant ‘create’ carbon merely transform or transfer it due to the law of mass conservation.
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And then everyone clapped?
 
Frosty said:
The Tories have marshalled their messages excellently. Also very few people are international trade experts and the impact from Brexit will be a loss of growth rather than an economic downturn. It is much more difficult to be negatively impacted by economic growth which is less than expected than by a recession.

Added to that the pandemic has masked a lot of the issues with Brexit, and has provided a convenient explanation politically for any issues faced over the next couple of years. But that's politics and they are playing the conditions very well. It has been helped by Labour not having a coherent vision yet too.
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that’s politics. It’s playing the game. Don’t hate the player, hate the game (although I’m not sure that is true…).

the tories are far more skilled than labour in politics. That’s clear as day. If the opposition was New Labour then we would have a genuinely interesting political battleground, as it is we have no coherent opposition. The Conservatives went through the same thing when labour were in power. IDS, Hague etc were no match for Blair. I’m certainly not condoning Boris, but he’s a very skilled politician.
 
vidic blood & sand said:
That's not a question you'd have been expecting to ask five years ago, is it?
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How are the trade agreements that offer us something above the EU going? I accept we have a "great" trade agreement for apples, pears and quince to India but I guess the agreements to replace the trades for everything else will come later?
 
vidic blood & sand said:
Do you want brexit to succeed?
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The question is how can Brexit possibly succeed. Whether I want it or not is immaterial. You cannot drastically damage your trade with your nearest and biggest partners and expect to succeed.
The nonsense about replacing EU trade with Commonwealth countries, the USA and emerging markets is complete tosh and you're slowly finding that out, look at the India agreement, it's pathetic.
 
Frosty said:
The Tories have marshalled their messages excellently. Also very few people are international trade experts and the impact from Brexit will be a loss of growth rather than an economic downturn. It is much more difficult to be negatively impacted by economic growth which is less than expected than by a recession.

Added to that the pandemic has masked a lot of the issues with Brexit, and has provided a convenient explanation politically for any issues faced over the next couple of years. But that's politics and they are playing the conditions very well. It has been helped by Labour not having a coherent vision yet too.
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There was always going to be a risk with brexit, and as someone has pointed out, we're only four months in. I would have thought people would be holding back prophesying doom, when so far the damage is extremely limited compared to forecasts in 2016.
Since brexit has happened, I assume people want it to succeed? Is recession something you'd welcome in order to put us on our hands and knees begging the EU to let us back in?
 
Paul the Wolf said:
The question is how can Brexit possibly succeed. Whether I want it or not is immaterial. You cannot drastically damage your trade with your nearest and biggest partners and expect to succeed.
The nonsense about replacing EU trade with Commonwealth countries, the USA and emerging markets is complete tosh and you're slowly finding out that out, look at the India agreement, it's pathetic.
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Do you want brexit to succeed?

Yes or no?
 
vidic blood & sand said:
That's not a question you'd have been expecting to ask five years ago, is it?
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Have the Tories delivered on one of their key Brexit arguments? I’m a former chef, originally from Cornwall, with a lot of old friends who are either Fishermen themselves or involved some way in the fishing economy. A lot of them on Facebook were very vocal about wanting to leave the EU, not because of tribalism (literally none of them come from Tory backgrounds) but because they genuinely believed that it was the EU that was hampering their industry. They’re now being very vocal about how badly they’ve been sold out and some of them have been asking after labouring work to pay their bills.

So would I have asked that question 5 years ago? Definitely. Because while Brexit might regularly get us all into arguments about the finer details of legal bollocks and legislation we only read about for the first time earlier that morning, the fishing industry is something I have seen first hand and understand intimately. It’s ingrained in the culture of where I grew up to an extent you probably don’t have the first clue about and it’s an absolute fecking shit show and a lot of old friends are likely to lose their livelihoods and see their communities dwindle away and get sold off to AirBnB so they can be left empty for 8 months of the year with nobody left to support the pubs, post offices, doctors, dentists, primary schools and whatever else needs a year round community to survive.
 
Jezpeza said:
Like the 18 year old fool in the local boozer who lectured me about all the ‘carbon we create’ then said i was clueless c**t for pointing out we cant ‘create’ carbon merely transform or transfer it due to the law of mass conservation.
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By your logic, you can't create a car either, you just transform some steel, plastic and rubber into a new form. Do you get CO2 by undertaking certain processes? If so, then you're creating it. But honestly, it's completely irrelevant. You knew this imaginary teenager wasn't talking about conjuring a substance out of thin air.
 
nimic said:
By your logic, you can't create a car either, you just transform some steel, plastic and rubber into a new form. Do you get CO2 by undertaking certain processes? If so, then you're creating it.
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Oh look another woke wanker with a counter argument. Just give it a rest.
 
nimic said:
By your logic, you can't create a car either, you just transform some steel, plastic and rubber into a new form. Do you get CO2 by undertaking certain processes? If so, then you're creating it.
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Well thats not creating carbon you’ve transformed existing carbon into carbondioxide.
 
Pexbo said:
Have the Tories delivered on one of their key Brexit arguments? I’m a former chef, originally from Cornwall, with a lot of old friends who are either Fishermen themselves or involved some way in the fishing economy. A lot of them on Facebook were very vocal about wanting to leave the EU, not because of tribalism (literally none of them come from Tory backgrounds) but because they genuinely believed that it was the EU that was hampering their industry. They’re now being very vocal about how badly they’ve been sold out and some of them have been asking after labouring work to pay their bills.

So would I have asked that question 5 years ago? Definitely. Because while Brexit might regularly get us all into arguments about the finer details of legal bollocks and legislation we only read about for the first time earlier that morning, the fishing industry is something I have seen first hand and understand intimately. It’s ingrained in the culture of where I grew up to an extent you probably don’t have the first clue about and it’s an absolute fecking shit show and a lot of old friends are likely to lose their livelihoods and see their communities dwindle away and get sold off to AirBnB so they can be left empty for 8 months of the year with nobody left to support the pubs, post offices, doctors, dentists, primary schools and whatever else needs a year round community to survive.
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Well let's see how it looks after 2026. On the fishing side it's not ideal, but long term we've got some negotiating leverage in the agreement.
 
vidic blood & sand said:
The FTSE is still climbing nicely regardless, and I'm sure we'll see a review of services in time. The EU needs our financial services.
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The FTSE has been rising because of the vaccine boost aside, which has lifted all markets. It's still been the weakest major market by an absolute mile since the Brexit referendum.

The EU is a major rival to UK financial services and are happily taking billions of pounds worth of business off it.

Amsterdam ousts London as Europe’s top share trading hub

https://www.ft.com/content/3dad4ef3-59e8-437e-8f63-f629a5b7d0aa
 
That'sHernandez said:
Maybe my friends and I are exceptions to the rule, but of those of us who own houses three of us vote Labour and one votes Lib Dem. Of the Labour voters, two of us are reluctant voters and one is Corbyn/Momentum. I don't necessarily think owning property turns you conservative... some of us continue to prefer voting for the good of the whole.
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Oh yeah it's not a 100% sure thing it's just a good indicator. Other factors such as job type, age, race, sex, type of housing, geography etc will also play a big role.

Also worth saying Labour under Corbyn wasn't particularly radical. It was pretty much standard social democracy stuff but with an anti imperialist outlook on foreign policy. The guy wasn't running on ending private
private property.
 
vidic blood & sand said:
Because you want it to fail, and you want the UK to pay for pissing you off.
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The only way I'm pissed off is that millions of UK citizens have been conned into this and are still being conned by the liars and charlatans.
On a personal level I guessed Leave would win back in March 2016 so it made me sort out my life and decided to retire early which I did that July. Brilliant, Thank you Brexit.
 
Jippy said:
The FTSE has been rising because of the vaccine boost aside, which has lifted all markets. It's still been the weakest major market by an absolute mile since the Brexit referendum.

The EU is a major rival to UK financial services and are happily taking billions of pounds worth of business off it.

Amsterdam ousts London as Europe’s top share trading hub

https://www.ft.com/content/3dad4ef3-59e8-437e-8f63-f629a5b7d0aa
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What's your outlook for UK services?
 
Paul the Wolf said:
The only way I'm pissed off is that millions of UK citizens have been conned into this and are still being conned by the liars and charlatans.
On a personal level I guessed Leave would win back in March 2016 so it made me sort out my life and decided to retire early which I did that July. Brilliant, Thank you Brexit.
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That's what you hope and think.
I voted to leave, but if remain had won, I would want the UK to prosper within the EU.
I would assume that remainers would want the UK to prosper outside the EU, if not grudgingly.
 
vidic blood & sand said:
Well let's see how it looks after 2026. On the fishing side it's not ideal, but long term we've got some negotiating leverage in the agreement.
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No we don’t. At all. The EU is our biggest market and the only market we can economically trade the quantities of fresh fish UK fisherman land on UK shores. For every thumb we try to put on the scales for UK fisherman, the EU will place a fist on the scales with tariffs. There’s no leverage whatsoever. We could ban all EU ships from the 12 mile exclusion zone and let UK boats hoover it all up and it will just rot on the pier.

It would require the government leveraging something outside of the fishing industry to get a favourable deal and there is absolutely zero appetite or motivation to do that and there never was. Fishing is worth very little in economic terms but it was a massively emotive subject that the government and right wing media used to get people riled up about the EU and behind Brexit and they can’t even be arsed to look after the industry when Brexit still has some political capital. Further down the line with Brexit done and dusted the Government will be more than happy to watch the UK fishing industry cease to exist so their private backers can get their grubby little hands on the UK fishing tariffs and flog them off to EU trawlers.
 
Jippy said:
Financial services will survive, but we've significantly weakened one of our most important industries and knocked hundreds of millions off UK tax receipts.
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Boris Johnson has already conceded that this aspect of the deal is not good enough, which brings us back to the original point about how well the conservatives are doing.
 
vidic blood & sand said:
That's what you hope and think.
I voted to leave, but if remain had won, I would want the UK to prosper within the EU.
I would assume that remainers would want the UK to prosper outside the EU, if not grudgingly.
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I know but I didn't vote, my whole viewpoint has been from way before the referendum that leaving the EU couldn't possibly succeed. I have not changed my opinion one iota. It's like trying to get 200mph out of a moped, it ain't happening.
 
vidic blood & sand said:
Boris Johnson has already conceded that this aspect of the deal is not good enough, which brings us back to the original point about how well the conservatives are doing.
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So your assessment is “not good enough”. Finally we agree on something.
 
Welsh Labour have done remarkably well given how if you judged by online comments on social media that apparently Mark Drakeford's lockdown rules made him enemy number one
 
ClaytonBlackmoorLeftPeg said:
that’s politics. It’s playing the game. Don’t hate the player, hate the game (although I’m not sure that is true…).

the tories are far more skilled than labour in politics. That’s clear as day. If the opposition was New Labour then we would have a genuinely interesting political battleground, as it is we have no coherent opposition. The Conservatives went through the same thing when labour were in power. IDS, Hague etc were no match for Blair. I’m certainly not condoning Boris, but he’s a very skilled politician.
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I agree 100%. One of the things which makes me irate about Labour is how they have consistently chosen naval gazing whilst the Tories set the narrative and tone for the debate. Self flagellating over Iraq in the 2010 leadership contest comes to mind. Whilst the Milibands bickered the Tories successfully set the narrative that the global financial crisis was all the fault of Labour overspending (even though Cameron had pledged to match that spending).

vidic blood & sand said:
There was always going to be a risk with brexit, and as someone has pointed out, we're only four months in. I would have thought people would be holding back prophesying doom, when so far the damage is extremely limited compared to forecasts in 2016.
Since brexit has happened, I assume people want it to succeed? Is recession something you'd welcome in order to put us on our hands and knees begging the EU to let us back in?
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It has to succeed yes (whatever that may mean). Rejoining the EU won't ever happen (or is decades off at least) so that issue is moot for me.

I am really worried about the impact on Northern Ireland and the hard won peace. The DUP campaigning to overturn the protocol (and many on the Tory right joining that bandwagon) genuinely concerns me.

Honestly if Brexit leads to renewed conflict in NI then any and all other economic or political gains GB may gain will not have been worth it, but I have many family and friends in NI so I do have skin in the game.
 
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