Keir Starmer Labour Leader

Maticmaker said:
My goodness me what a position to take, its not a viewpoint, its what I and millions of others do when we cast our vote. Its not a question of people being 'unworthy' to vote...wherever did you get that from :lol:?


I believe in democracy for everybody as well, and if people can be bothered to ask a few questions to determine their eligibility then they can cast their vote for any party, but if they cannot be bothered, or they are not eligible, then they don't get to vote.

I am therefore going to have to call your post ill-informed or nonsense, or perhaps a bit of both ;)
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But most of the electorate aren't very well informed. So you're advocating for a very limited form of democracy. It stands to reason. Please explain the misstep in my logic to me. You believe in "citizen democracy" or whatever where you have to be deemed worthy in order to cast a vote.
 
TwoSheds said:
But most of the electorate aren't very well informed. So you're advocating for a very limited form of democracy. It stands to reason. Please explain the misstep in my logic to me. You believe in "citizen democracy" or whatever where you have to be deemed worthy in order to cast a vote.
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If people really want to cast their vote, then it is simply a matter of them seeking the information they require, like they would when booking a holiday or even ordering a pizza, they want something so they take steps to obtain it. No one is disenfranchised unless they do it themselves. Yes, some may be ineligible, then they can either fight that situation, or accept it and move on.
Voting is a privaledge, many people have suffered in order to establish the widest franchise possible, those who are eligible and want to vote are able to do so under the ID proposals.
It stands to reason that younger people will have less opportunity in terms of some examples of personal ID, because they have not been around long enough to have acquired such items; however they can get such ID evidence if they want to do so...I would accept that for many younger people it's not probably at the top of their 'to do list'.
 
Maticmaker said:
If people really want to cast their vote, then it is simply a matter of them seeking the information they require, like they would when booking a holiday or even ordering a pizza, they want something so they take steps to obtain it. No one is disenfranchised unless they do it themselves. Yes, some may be ineligible, then they can either fight that situation, or accept it and move on.
Voting is a privaledge, many people have suffered in order to establish the widest franchise possible, those who are eligible and want to vote are able to do so under the ID proposals.
It stands to reason that younger people will have less opportunity in terms of some examples of personal ID, because they have not been around long enough to have acquired such items; however they can get such ID evidence if they want to do so...I would accept that for many younger people it's not probably at the top of their 'to do list'.
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It's not only younger people who don't know this stuff though. It might be that many of the older people happen to have the right forms of ID - because that's how the Tories designed the system. But thanks for confirming you don't believe everyone has the right to vote. It's quite funny that you talk about it as such a hard earned right and yet are so happy to caveat it so flippantly. The right was won for ALL adults to vote, not just the well informed / lucky. You'll note the forms of ID aren't free of course...
 
TwoSheds said:
It's not only younger people who don't know this stuff though. It might be that many of the older people happen to have the right forms of ID - because that's how the Tories designed the system. But thanks for confirming you don't believe everyone has the right to vote. It's quite funny that you talk about it as such a hard earned right and yet are so happy to caveat it so flippantly. The right was won for ALL adults to vote, not just the well informed / lucky. You'll note the forms of ID aren't free of course...
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Absolutely.

It seems that some advocate making the voting process harder for "younger people". Which inevitably games the system for the Tories. Alongside their gerrymandering, the current FPTP system and the right wing press in the UK, we do not have a functioning democracy.
 
Why stop at ID cards ? Personally I favour a wipeout style course placed in front of the voting booth.

If people really cared about voting then they’ve got 4 years to prepare with fitness and to practise. Also it would help make the public become more self aware about their overall health.
 
Sweet Square said:
Why stop at ID cards ? Personally I favour a wipeout style course placed in front of the voting booth.

If people really cared about voting then they’ve got 4 years to prepare with fitness and to practise. Also it would help make the public become more self aware about their overall health.
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On the one hand I violently disagree with this suggestion, but on the other hand I can't wait to see it!
 
TwoSheds said:
On the one hand I violently disagree with this suggestion, but on the other hand I can't wait to see it!
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Exactly! Get rid of the boring David Dimbleby rubbish and instead replace it with a 24 hour BBC live stream on Election Day.

Imagine the tension with 20 minutes to go before the polls close, watching Suzanne aged 64 trying to clear the big red balls, in order to vote to cut disability benefits. Labour voters celebrating in Wembley Park, after Suzanne gets a concussion from the robotic punching boxing glove.

Also we could have special time slots for when the party leaders(Instead of debates) or famous people are going to take on the wipeout course. At 7:00 PM Sunak and Starmer will face off and then the last hour is some light entertainment, time slots for Ant & Dec or that old lady from bake off who used to hit her kids.
 
Sweet Square said:
Exactly! Get rid of the boring David Dimbleby rubbish and instead replace it with a 24 hour BBC live stream on Election Day.

Imagine the tension with 20 minutes to go before the polls close, watching Suzanne aged 64 trying to clear the big red balls, in order to vote to cut disability benefits. Labour voters celebrating in Wembley Park, after Suzanne gets a concussion from the robotic punching boxing glove.

Also we could have special time slots for when the party leaders(Instead of debates) or famous people are going to take on the wipeout course. At 7:00 PM Sunak and Starmer will face off and then the last hour is some light entertainment, time slots for Ant & Dec or that old lady from bake off who used to hit her kids.
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:lol:
 
Sweet Square said:
Exactly! Get rid of the boring David Dimbleby rubbish and instead replace it with a 24 hour BBC live stream on Election Day.

Imagine the tension with 20 minutes to go before the polls close, watching Suzanne aged 64 trying to clear the big red balls, in order to vote to cut disability benefits. Labour voters celebrating in Wembley Park, after Suzanne gets a concussion from the robotic punching boxing glove.

Also we could have special time slots for when the party leaders(Instead of debates) or famous people are going to take on the wipeout course. At 7:00 PM Sunak and Starmer will face off and then the last hour is some light entertainment, time slots for Ant & Dec or that old lady from bake off who used to hit her kids.
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:lol: this is the kind of dystopia I'm holding out for.
 
TwoSheds said:
It's not only younger people who don't know this stuff though. It might be that many of the older people happen to have the right forms of ID - because that's how the Tories designed the system. But thanks for confirming you don't believe everyone has the right to vote. It's quite funny that you talk about it as such a hard earned right and yet are so happy to caveat it so flippantly. The right was won for ALL adults to vote, not just the well informed / lucky. You'll note the forms of ID aren't free of course...
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Yes, that's right all adults are entitled to vote, all they have to do is to turn up with the required proof of who they are... no problem whatsoever.... the rich, the poor, young adults (at/over the age of voting), the old, anyone of any ethnicity, sexual orientation, religion, etc all are eligible providing they turn up with ID. Moreover they can vote in secret, and by their own hand, not via a machine whose workings can misfire (although I won't be surprised if this requirement changes in the not too distant future) and vote also by approved postal mechanisms.

There is really no reason under the new ID rules for anyone who wants to vote and is eligible and obtains the required ID proof, not to vote, unless by personal preference.
 
Maticmaker said:
Yes, that's right all adults are entitled to vote, all they have to do is to turn up with the required proof of who they are... no problem whatsoever.... the rich, the poor, young adults (at/over the age of voting), the old, anyone of any ethnicity, sexual orientation, religion, etc all are eligible providing they turn up with ID. Moreover they can vote in secret, and by their own hand, not via a machine whose workings can misfire (although I won't be surprised if this requirement changes in the not too distant future) and vote also by approved postal mechanisms.

There is really no reason under the new ID rules for anyone who wants to vote and is eligible and obtains the required ID proof, not to vote, unless by personal preference.
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Why do you think that the conservative party were so keen to get these voting rule changes through when there were so few cases of fraud?
 
Shinjch said:
Why do you think that the conservative party were so keen to get these voting rule changes through when there were so few cases of fraud?
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Possibly to prevent the level of fraud increasing? Possibly taking a leaf out of the US play-book, who knows?
It still makes sense to try to ensure everyone who turns up to vote is eligible and ID proof, from a range of options, is the best way... I guess, can you think of another?
 
Maticmaker said:
Possibly to prevent the level of fraud increasing? Possibly taking a leaf out of the US play-book, who knows?
It still makes sense to try to ensure everyone who turns up to vote is eligible and ID proof, from a range of options, is the best way... I guess, can you think of another?
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Strikes me as naive. Or you are intentionally avoiding what is the most likely reason?
I saw nothing wrong with the previous requirements. Those on the right would be calling this a "slippery slope" if it wasn't something that was going to benefit them and their interests.
 
Maticmaker said:
Yes, that's right all adults are entitled to vote, all they have to do is to turn up with the required proof of who they are... no problem whatsoever.... the rich, the poor, young adults (at/over the age of voting), the old, anyone of any ethnicity, sexual orientation, religion, etc all are eligible providing they turn up with ID. Moreover they can vote in secret, and by their own hand, not via a machine whose workings can misfire (although I won't be surprised if this requirement changes in the not too distant future) and vote also by approved postal mechanisms.

There is really no reason under the new ID rules for anyone who wants to vote and is eligible and obtains the required ID proof, not to vote, unless by personal preference.
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If you have to pay for the proof then not all adults have the right to vote because not all adults have any money. And you know that, because despite your best efforts to demonstrate the opposite, you're not stupid. And you also know that kids who are voting for the first time, or old people who maybe can't keep up with the news like they used to, are the least likely to know about the ID rules as well and are also more likely to be excluded. Again because you're not stupid.

So yes you are advocating for people not to be able to vote i.e. a "citizen democracy" or whatever where you have to prove yourself worthy in order to gain a vote. Which is actually not what our forefathers in the war and the brave suffragists and unions fought for. They fought for the fundamental human right for all adults to vote. Not "adults who prove themselves worthy by some arbitrary process".
 
Shinjch said:
Strikes me as naive. Or you are intentionally avoiding what is the most likely reason?
I saw nothing wrong with the previous requirements. Those on the right would be calling this a "slippery slope" if it wasn't something that was going to benefit them and their interests.
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Yes that is obvious! See reference to US play-book!!
 
TwoSheds said:
If you have to pay for the proof then not all adults have the right to vote because not all adults have any money. And you know that, because despite your best efforts to demonstrate the opposite, you're not stupid. And you also know that kids who are voting for the first time, or old people who maybe can't keep up with the news like they used to, are the least likely to know about the ID rules as well and are also more likely to be excluded. Again because you're not stupid.

So yes you are advocating for people not to be able to vote i.e. a "citizen democracy" or whatever where you have to prove yourself worthy in order to gain a vote. Which is actually not what our forefathers in the war and the brave suffragists and unions fought for. They fought for the fundamental human right for all adults to vote. Not "adults who prove themselves worthy by some arbitrary process".
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Sorry... have to laugh at this first sentence, its complete nonsense... in this context. The 'right to vote' stands, nothing can take that away, money or no money... being able to produce proof because of having no money does sound very harsh, citizens advice could probably help in such circumstances.

I am sure kids voting for the first time will definitely find out what they need, the sheer excitement in being able to vote for the first time. I read everything I could get hold of about such matters when I reached voting age.

As for old people, well some I know will forget i.e. 'cognitive impairment' etc. but some I know will tell you they don't vote because they feel they are not in a position/ and therefore should not vote, on the future.

Why do you insist on talking about 'proving worth'.... its about proving who you say you are....nothing whatsoever to do with 'worthiness'... whatever that means?
 
Shinjch said:
Hardly strikes me as good policy for the country then. Just for the tories.
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Yes it may turn out that way, but I somehow don't think (or hope) so. Perhaps all depends on Scotland is there enough Labour voters with ID?
After all didn't the focus on the recent SNP leadership battle show that somehow the Party had lost something like 40,000 members somewhere?
 
Maticmaker said:
Sorry... have to laugh at this first sentence, its complete nonsense... in this context. The 'right to vote' stands, nothing can take that away, money or no money... being able to produce proof because of having no money does sound very harsh, citizens advice could probably help in such circumstances.

I am sure kids voting for the first time will definitely find out what they need, the sheer excitement in being able to vote for the first time. I read everything I could get hold of about such matters when I reached voting age.

As for old people, well some I know will forget i.e. 'cognitive impairment' etc. but some I know will tell you they don't vote because they feel they are not in a position/ and therefore should not vote, on the future.

Why do you insist on talking about 'proving worth'.... its about proving who you say you are....nothing whatsoever to do with 'worthiness'... whatever that means?
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Your experience of being a young person is a) many decades ago and b) not the same as every other person's experience of being that age. Whilst it's great that you were all excited and knew everything, that isn't true for everyone and even a cursory look at surveys and stats, or even just asking some people on the street yourself if you fancied it, would prove that out.

There's people in this very thread that you're choosing to ignore that have talked about people they know not understanding the new rules. Your highly disingenuous opinion is therefore that those people are not worthy to vote. All adults are worthy to vote, that is the basic principle of our democracy. If you exclude people from that process, which you inevitably will every single time, not just this once, because there'll always be some new voters who didn't know, someone who's lost their passport, someone who forgets it etc, then you're deliberately excluding those people.

And you're doing it ostensibly to prevent voter fraud that there's absolutely no evidence happens in greater numbers than will be excluded by this move. Not even close in fact. That being the case, it is clear that you think it's good to exclude that inevitable number of people from the process as you value their votes less highly than a problem that doesn't exist.

And again, you know you're being disingenuous, you're just arrogant enough to think that those people's votes aren't worth as much as yours.
 
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Maticmaker said:
Sorry... have to laugh at this first sentence, its complete nonsense... in this context. The 'right to vote' stands, nothing can take that away, money or no money... being able to produce proof because of having no money does sound very harsh, citizens advice could probably help in such circumstances.

I am sure kids voting for the first time will definitely find out what they need, the sheer excitement in being able to vote for the first time. I read everything I could get hold of about such matters when I reached voting age.

As for old people, well some I know will forget i.e. 'cognitive impairment' etc. but some I know will tell you they don't vote because they feel they are not in a position/ and therefore should not vote, on the future.

Why do you insist on talking about 'proving worth'.... its about proving who you say you are....nothing whatsoever to do with 'worthiness'... whatever that means?
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On the bolded part. How does one get the required ID without paying for it?
 
Keir "the feck kinda name is that" Starmer seems a bit shit tbh. No ideology convictions whatsoever, just always saying whatever he thinks will get him the most plaudits at that particular moment.
 
TwoSheds said:
And again, you know you're being disingenuous, you're just arrogant enough to think that those people's votes aren't worth as much as yours.
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Every persons vote is worth the same.
You are the one making out something different and being disingenuous with it by suggesting that the Government, in asking for proof of identity, are mitigating against some people and are seeking to prevent them from voting because they might not vote Tory... that's frankly rubbish and you know it.
 
GDaly95 said:
So Blair then.

A bland Blair.
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More Milliband really, funny but poor old Ed seems largely forgot about. His Labour were just the same, largely because its the same strategy folks at play.

Staying close to the Tories, a fresh new start from the previous leader, absence of policy. He was allowed to just float on and then the Tories ramped up the character attacks when they needed to.

The same will be done with Starmer, only question is if that outweighs the hate for the Tory party.
 
Maticmaker said:
Every persons vote is worth the same.
You are the one making out something different and being disingenuous with it by suggesting that the Government, in asking for proof of identity, are mitigating against some people and are seeking to prevent them from voting because they might not vote Tory... that's frankly rubbish and you know it.
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Stop trolling it got boring long ago. There's enough substantiated evidence about voter ID and it's differing impacts that your opinion is pretty worthless.
 
Maticmaker said:
Every persons vote is worth the same.
You are the one making out something different and being disingenuous with it by suggesting that the Government, in asking for proof of identity, are mitigating against some people and are seeking to prevent them from voting because they might not vote Tory... that's frankly rubbish and you know it.
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Don't eat that billy goat. There'll be a bigger one trip-trapping across your bridge soon enough.
 
DanH said:
It's a clear extra step for a lot of people
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Providing ID is a clear extra step for everybody who intends to vote at the next GE, not just those applying for a free Voting Authority Certificate.
 
Maticmaker said:
Every persons vote is worth the same.
You are the one making out something different and being disingenuous with it by suggesting that the Government, in asking for proof of identity, are mitigating against some people and are seeking to prevent them from voting because they might not vote Tory... that's frankly rubbish and you know it.
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Care to answer the earlier question about why you personally think the government has deemed a 60+ oyster card a valid id but not an 18+ oyster card or young person railcard (both of which contain names and faces)?
 
Smores said:
Stop trolling it got boring long ago
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:lol: oh dear... 'stop trolling' is it... sounds like you are losing the argument?

There is no reason why anyone who is eligible to vote, and wants to vote, will be prevented by the ID changes, from voting. That is of course unless they cannot be bothered and want an excuse for not exercising their rights; you seem to have swallowed the bait that this will be mainly non-Tory voters?

Perhaps you are thinking of Jeremy Corbyn' (about to be disenfranchised) and his supporters... that will be a good excuse... the Tory changes did for us in the end!
 
Maticmaker said:
:lol: oh dear... 'stop trolling' is it... sounds like you are losing the argument?

There is no reason why anyone who is eligible to vote, and wants to vote, will be prevented by the ID changes, from voting. That is of course unless they cannot be bothered and want an excuse for not exercising their rights; you seem to have swallowed the bait that this will be mainly non-Tory voters?

Perhaps you are thinking of Jeremy Corbyn' (about to be disenfranchised) and his supporters... that will be a good excuse... the Tory changes did for us in the end!
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The governments own pilots and consultations disagree with your viewpoint. All a matter of public record.
 
africanspur said:
Care to answer the earlier question about why you personally think the government has deemed a 60+ oyster card a valid id but not an 18+ oyster card or young person railcard (both of which contain names and faces)?
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Got me there... no idea my friend... perhaps its because the Tories don't want an even bigger Labour vote in London and feel they might even be in with a chance of winning some of the inner London seats, if they can stop a significant number of 18+ oyster card uses being registered?

My advice to 18+ oyster card holders get yourself a Free Voting Authority Certificate, and dump your oyster card as its clearly a 'tool of the oppressor' ;)
 
Smores said:
The governments own pilots and consultations disagree with your viewpoint. All a matter of public record.
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I think you will find these studies highlight the (albeit relatively small) risk that does exists for some groups and for various reasons and it urges the Government to make contingency plans, one of which seems to be the FREE Voting Authority Certificate... and I do agree they will have to 'light a fire' under some councils on these matters.

This still does not negate my view that being asked to provide evidence of your identity in order to ensure eligibility is not onerous and only prevents those who whilst having a right, wont follow the rules to exercise that right, and thereby disenfranchise themselves.
 
Maticmaker said:
According to The Electoral Commission website you can apply for a FREE Voter Authority Certificate
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First I've heard this. This should be advertised. Along with the fact you need to apply for this in order to exercise your right to vote unless you have a driving licence or passport or are an OAP.
 
Sweet Square said:
Why stop at ID cards ? Personally I favour a wipeout style course placed in front of the voting booth.

If people really cared about voting then they’ve got 4 years to prepare with fitness and to practise. Also it would help make the public become more self aware about their overall health.
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At last something we can agree on.
 
GDaly95 said:
So Blair then.

A bland Blair.
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I'm not a Blair fan (far from it), but he did actually have ideas and his government actually did make quite a lot of positive changes. He's an absolute nothing compared to Blair, no substance at all.
 
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